02Sled Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 What ever happened to the good old days of Trail Wardens? I don't think the training was as extensive but they were trained, knowledgeable of the MSVA and had enforcement powers that our current Trail Patrol volunteers don't have. I do trail patrol everytime I am out on our Club trails and I am also a Trail Patrol Instructor. We are basically powerless to enforce and that is why so many volunteers aren't interested in this position. through my experience and in conversation with the OPP, most of the the OPP could give a rats ass about permits. They are more concerned about alcohol, val tags, insurance, and whether or not your chin strap is done up properly. Lets increase the fines and bring back Trail Wardens whose objective is not to sell permits on the trail, but to tag those without a permits double the cost of buying a permit. Then, those that volunteer for this position feel they are actually able to contribute more to the recreation of snowmobiling in Ontario. How many volunteer Trail patrollers (many who work) are going to take the time to take photos and information, drive to their local OPP or Justice of the Peace, and try to convince them to lay charges? We need to go back to the good old days where the mindset was I better have a permit, or I will pay the price when I caome across a Trail Warden. X2 - we also need to let go of the territorial attitudes from one club to another. When I am out on the trail I am looking for permits regardless of whether it is my clubs trails or not. I don't really care whether I am in a neighbouring clubs area or not. I will do the notice of tresspass for being on the trail without a permit. If I ignore the freeloaders just because it is not my clubs trail it only contributes to the attitude they can ride with impunity. I carry permits with me but under the system we have today I only sell a permit when on our club trails. The other clubs for the most part have the attitude that the sale of the permit should go to their club since it was on their trail. Because of this I give them the notice of tresspass and tell them where they can buy a permit from the local club and give them the option to buy a permit and I tear it up. How about we let go of that and realize that everytime we find a freeloader we stop them and sell them a permit regardless of what club you are with and where you are. Far better to get funding into the system period than be territorial and not see it at all. Better yet hit them with a fine and they still need to buy the permit. Too many people see too many other people riding without a permit and figure if they can so can I since when you get caught nothing happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Your last few words are exactly what is happening here in d5 and d9. Free weekend didn't help free loading situation either. I seen one group only 2 out of 7 had permits and were riding midweek. Next year none of them will have permits I bet. If you ride Monday to Thursday around here, there is no one out to enforce the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 X2 - we also need to let go of the territorial attitudes from one club to another. When I am out on the trail I am looking for permits regardless of whether it is my clubs trails or not. I don't really care whether I am in a neighbouring clubs area or not. I will do the notice of tresspass for being on the trail without a permit. If I ignore the freeloaders just because it is not my clubs trail it only contributes to the attitude they can ride with impunity. I carry permits with me but under the system we have today I only sell a permit when on our club trails. The other clubs for the most part have the attitude that the sale of the permit should go to their club since it was on their trail. Because of this I give them the notice of tresspass and tell them where they can buy a permit from the local club and give them the option to buy a permit and I tear it up. How about we let go of that and realize that everytime we find a freeloader we stop them and sell them a permit regardless of what club you are with and where you are. Far better to get funding into the system period than be territorial and not see it at all. Better yet hit them with a fine and they still need to buy the permit. Too many people see too many other people riding without a permit and figure if they can so can I since when you get caught nothing happens. Most clubs have some tenous landuse where if a landowner is "bugged" on his/her own property the trail will close. This is hard to know if you are not from the area it is for this reason that trail patrollers need to be a diplomat first enforcer second. As well I have had much better luck and less stress selling the pass as a contribution to the trail rather than a buy it or else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Most clubs have some tenous landuse where if a landowner is "bugged" on his/her own property the trail will close. This is hard to know if you are not from the area it is for this reason that trail patrollers need to be a diplomat first enforcer second. As well I have had much better luck and less stress selling the pass as a contribution to the trail rather than a buy it or else. I totally agree. I always treat them all with respect and always explain all that goes into the trail system and the need to support the system by having a pass. If on our trails the way things are structured now I explain all the options we have, buy a permit (for which I thank them for supporting the trails, give them a map and a club pen in a ziplock and in the bag is a thank you for supporting the trails ask that they turn around and leave our trails or dependent upon the individual and how beligerent they are give them a notice of tresspass and tell them if they get a pass this week I will tear it up. I will admit this year having seen so many abusing the system I have been a little less forgiving than I would have been in the past. I have heard so many lame excuses and a lot of them have a permit in their pocket. I also get the guys who have a permit but have it behind the windshield facing the sky who keep aksing why they are always being stopped even though they have a permit. Treat them with respect and educate them they are likely to buy a permit. Become antogonistic or hostile and you immediately alienate them and their desire to cooperate plummets. If someone claims to be the landowner I am not going to get into a debate with them either. Even in your own club area it is often next to impossible to know who they are. I believe though that most land owners with sleds will actually have permits and ride well beyond their property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 We have several cottage roads that the landowners use the sled only to access the cottage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Trail Patrol and Trail Wardens are the same. OFSC renamed the program to sound i little friendlier to sledderds. NOTHING changed as far as powers only the name TP is only good in private land with which the club has an LUP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Trail Patrol and Trail Wardens are the same. OFSC renamed the program to sound i little friendlier to sledderds. NOTHING changed as far as powers only the name TP is only good in private land with which the club has an LUP which in the bulk of Ontario is most trails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 which in the bulk of Ontario is most trails Not up here I have been a TP/TW for almost 20 years. We are very lucky up here with our relationship with local law enforcement, they will lay charges on our behalf. I don't want more power to charge with no permit etc, that is what STOP and law enforcemnt is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Not up here I have been a TP/TW for almost 20 years. We are very lucky up here with our relationship with local law enforcement, they will lay charges on our behalf. I don't want more power to charge with no permit etc, that is what STOP and law enforcemnt is for. You're lucky because in the south they're only interested in ticketing riders for no insurance or no vag . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 You're lucky because in the south they're only interested in ticketing riders for no insurance or no vag . I hope that you mean "val tag" cause that would be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 We have established a really good working relationship with the OPP and received positive feedback regarding thier efforts this year. It's tough to enforce in your own area as these are the folks you see all the time BUT I would have no problem going 30 miles in any direction and doing TP. yes I know "we" my club doesn't see the benefit of selling permits but if other clubs in our area did the same it would get the word out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I hope that you mean "val tag" cause that would be wrong Lol. That is funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shook Up Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 You're lucky because in the south they're only interested in ticketing riders for no insurance or no vag . x2 Classic Buddy is trail patrol on D9 and talked to OPP officer. Officer didn't even know there was a failure to display charge that needed to be given. Agreed that the OPP don't lay charges for no permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shook Up Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Seems like you ride alot locally through the week from your comments. Why don't you become a trail patrol and stop all those guys yourself? If there are that many freeloaders out there through the week then you are just the kind of guy trail patrol is looking for. St. Clements club needs more patrol guys. X2 I ride during week and patrol when in my area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Funny the OPP won't lay a no permit charge, its around $300 if I'm not mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Seems like you ride alot locally through the week from your comments. Why don't you become a trail patrol and stop all those guys yourself? If there are that many freeloaders out there through the week then you are just the kind of guy trail patrol is looking for. St. Clements club needs more patrol guys. St Clements doesn't need more Trail Patrol. I believe we have 7-9 active within the club now. They need more authority to enforce a fine. The trespass ticket deal is a waste of time. Once in court, most walk and those who are found guilt get a $75 fine. Not worth taking a day off work to process. I don't have the answers, I just know what we have now doesn't work. Either people will start to feel some guilt from riding without or we will have plenty more freeloaders next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flash 800 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I was only stopped once this year by police and it wasn't even police on sleds, it was a highway cruiser and he flat out said he could care less about permits, he was only interested in insurance and ownership paperwork. Useless!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 If TP is given the authority to fine for the lack of permit, I would volunteer for TP for my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 If TP is given the authority to fine for the lack of permit, I would volunteer for TP for my club. I can tell you it is being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 If TP is given the authority to fine for the lack of permit, I would volunteer for TP for my club. They can fine, but unless you can identify the rider and show up in court, the charge will get dropped. They are like mall cops, can blow the whistle on the free loader, but he gets the last laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traillover Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I believe the OFSC is quite serious about ramping up the ability for Trail Patrol to lay a trespass charges The Trail Wardens have always had the power as a private individual to lay Trespass charges. This was never taken away. Trail Wardens became "ambassadors" of the sport to try to influence delinquent riders to purchase permits and provide assistance to riders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I was only stopped once this year by police and it wasn't even police on sleds, it was a highway cruiser and he flat out said he could care less about permits, he was only interested in insurance and ownership paperwork. Useless!! Exactly! They do NOT care about your OFSC Trail Permit at all. OPP and Border Patrol said that they do not care and that all they wanted to see was registration and insurance. I asked them why not and they both said "I don't care". The Nice Border Patrol guy and gal did say that they did notice it on the sled, but they are not out enforcing permits which is true. By the way, what is a E99 form???? I think I am going to start asking for those at the beginning of the season next year. Customs and Border Patrol just keep asking about my E99 forms which I never have had? Border Patrol stopped us as we were getting close to leaving Canada on St. Joseph Island, not coming into Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Combine the permit with the Val tag is the answer. Nothing else is going to work. Police forces can't be bothered about permits, since they don't want to pay officers to go to court to enforce the charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 They can fine, but unless you can identify the rider and show up in court, the charge will get dropped. They are like mall cops, can blow the whistle on the free loader, but he gets the last laugh. UMMM NO We have to swear out a complaint to the police and then only a tresspass charge. What the others are talking about is the ability to directly lay the fail to properly display a trail permit charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Combine the permit with the Val tag is the answer. Nothing else is going to work. Police forces can't be bothered about permits, since they don't want to pay officers to go to court to enforce the charge. the 3 times I was stopped by OPP this winter around New Hamburg area they only wanted to see my pass on my sled(had it on the side of windshield)..., never once asked me for info on insurance, etc......Diceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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