02Sled Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 So basically what you're saying is that your love of the sport has to be based on how wealthy you are??. Example: A family pulls in a income in excess of $100,000 and there is many that do as opposed to B family that pulls in $60,000 to $70,000. A family clearly has more resources to enjoy the sport than B family which according to your logic doesn't deserve to be in the sport because he can't keep up with A family! That's ludicrous! No matter what choices you make you always have to give up something to get something. Often that choice is as simplistic as $250 a month into a savings account/RSP or monthly payments for a new sled. You give up the savings for the new sled. Or perhaps it's give up a new sled for new appliances for the kitchen. It is all a matter of where your priorities are. It is a reality in life that some people have more money than others and that imposes limits on what they can expect to enjoy during their life. To simply suggest that the love of a sport is based on how wealthy you are is not realistic. I would love to have a float plane and be able to fly. If I gave up the boats, the sleds and a number of other things (make choices) I could afford to buy and maintain a float plane. For someone to suggest that they can't afford the cost of a permit but can afford the cost of a brand new sled is suggestive that perhaps they made a poor choice. Instead of a brand new sled perhaps the choice may have been a gently used sled and put the savings toward the permit cost. Or perhaps there is something else they may choose to give up instead of a new sled. It may be as basic as eating more Kraft Dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I am still thinking that lowering trail permit costs is not the answer. I cannot belive that guys bitch about a $10 increase in 2 YEARS... it's not about the 10.00 in two years. it is about the trail permit going up OVER TRIPLE, what it was from 1999 to now. from 80 bux to 260. it's about less trail miles, less loops open, less grooming by clubs due to, LIMITATIONS ON GROOMING PUT FORTH BY THE OFSC. clubs are affraid to start grooming because, they dont want to "go over their alotted hours". in recent years they were told funding would be witheld, if they didnt groom at least once a week (wether the trails needed it or not). NOW THEY LIMIT CLUBS TO 330 HOURS PER SEASON MAX. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. EITHER LET THEM GROOM WHEN THEY WANT/NEED. OR STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE PROCESS. the regional and club levels know more about the locales than the main ofsc body. the local clubs should have a say in when, how often, how early, and how late they can groom. DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF SNOW AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. I AM ASTOUNDED THAT DUBREUILVILLE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED THE GROOMER YET, AND HERE WE ARE STARTING THE 4TH WEEK OF JANUARY. THEY HAVE WAITED BECAUSE OF THEIR LONGER SEASON, THEY DONT WANT TO BE OVER GROOMING HOURS FOR LATE SEASON. THIS WAS BROUGHT ON BY THE OFSC. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 it's not about the 10.00 in two years. it is about the trail permit going up OVER TRIPLE, what it was from 1999 to now. from 80 bux to 260. it's about less trail miles, less loops open, less grooming by clubs due to, LIMITATIONS ON GROOMING PUT FORTH BY THE OFSC. clubs are affraid to start grooming because, they dont want to "go over their alotted hours". in recent years they were told funding would be witheld, if they didnt groom at least once a week (wether the trails needed it or not). NOW THEY LIMIT CLUBS TO 330 HOURS PER SEASON MAX. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. EITHER LET THEM GROOM WHEN THEY WANT/NEED. OR STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE PROCESS. the regional and club levels know more about the locales than the main ofsc body. the local clubs should have a say in when, how often, how early, and how late they can groom. DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF SNOW AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. I AM ASTOUNDED THAT DUBREUILVILLE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED THE GROOMER YET, AND HERE WE ARE STARTING THE 4TH WEEK OF JANUARY. THEY HAVE WAITED BECAUSE OF THEIR LONGER SEASON, THEY DONT WANT TO BE OVER GROOMING HOURS FOR LATE SEASON. THIS WAS BROUGHT ON BY THE OFSC. Ski That $80 was what $60us back then too I bet gas was what 60cents a liter then too, I remember riding to Sportmans Lodge and freaking out at 68cents a liter in 1997 and in town it was 52cents a liter Now gas in Sudbury is $1.23L, Wawa must be pushing $1.30L can just imagine remote camps where they truck in their fuel There is not an easy solution to what is going on be it perceived high permit prices to gas prices to lot more expenses people are into these days It cost $$$$ to groom there is no way around it OFSC insurance had a huge jump in price somewhere around 2001 too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Ya and in 97 my dad bought a pair of one year old 380s with 1200km on them for $5200. That would cost you $12,000+ today so permit price is in line with the increased price of sleds as well. And in the last 2 or 3 years of riding, I haven't seen any sled or truck and trailer setup on the trails that shows anyone having a hard time paying the cost of permits. Here is an idea, instead of, out fitted in Arctic Cat or Skidoo logo gear, buy HJC or FXR at royal and the diffrance would cover your permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Ya and in 97 my dad bought a pair of one year old 380s with 1200km on them for $5200. That would cost you $12,000+ today so permit price is in line with the increased price of sleds as well. And in the last 2 or 3 years of riding, I haven't seen any sled or truck and trailer setup on the trails that shows anyone having a hard time paying the cost of permits. Here is an idea, instead of, out fitted in Arctic Cat or Skidoo logo gear, buy HJC or FXR at royal and the diffrance would cover your permit. a pair of one old 380s will cost you $12000????? Dad bought a year old Safari 377 in 1988 with 1400kms for $2800 why do people have to buy a 140hp sled and complain about the price and try to compare to what they paid for a 80hp sled 15yrs earlier, never understood that argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 it's not about the 10.00 in two years. it is about the trail permit going up OVER TRIPLE, what it was from 1999 to now. from 80 bux to 260. it's about less trail miles, less loops open, less grooming by clubs due to, LIMITATIONS ON GROOMING PUT FORTH BY THE OFSC. clubs are affraid to start grooming because, they dont want to "go over their alotted hours". in recent years they were told funding would be witheld, if they didnt groom at least once a week (wether the trails needed it or not). NOW THEY LIMIT CLUBS TO 330 HOURS PER SEASON MAX. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. EITHER LET THEM GROOM WHEN THEY WANT/NEED. OR STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE PROCESS. the regional and club levels know more about the locales than the main ofsc body. the local clubs should have a say in when, how often, how early, and how late they can groom. DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF SNOW AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. I AM ASTOUNDED THAT DUBREUILVILLE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED THE GROOMER YET, AND HERE WE ARE STARTING THE 4TH WEEK OF JANUARY. THEY HAVE WAITED BECAUSE OF THEIR LONGER SEASON, THEY DONT WANT TO BE OVER GROOMING HOURS FOR LATE SEASON. THIS WAS BROUGHT ON BY THE OFSC. Ski And in 1978 I was able to buy a brand new car taxes included for $3,000. I can remember when you could buy a full cart of groceries to feed a family of 4 for a week for $40. What hasn't gone up including your income. First the OFSC didn't tell anybody what and when they can groom. Many of the clubs CHOOSE to belong to a grooming association within their district. The grooming association is not the OFSC it is the member clubs of that district that choose to participate and they make their own decisions for their association. So yes some clubs that CHOOSE to be part of that grooming association. You can opt out and still be an OFSC club may be given direction on how much they can groom based on the amount of money that association in that local area has available for grooming. I don't know what you do when you run out of money to pay for something but what would you suggest a club or group of clubs that band together to leverage benefits do when they run out of money. They can't just print more. Do you suggest they go into debt. Who in the club becomes financially responsible for that debt. How happy would you be if a club groomed every day in the first half of the season and ran out of money to groom at all in the last half of the season. It is a very fine line to try and walk to determine what level will actually get you through the season. That cyrstal ball they have to look into for how much snow and when isn't very crystal it's very cloudy in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 a pair of one old 380s will cost you $12000????? Dad bought a year old Safari 377 in 1988 with 1400kms for $2800 why do people have to buy a 140hp sled and complain about the price and try to compare to what they paid for a 80hp sled 15yrs earlier, never understood that argument It amazes me how people cheap out on some things. I go to the marina in Port Credit and see a guy with a $150,000 boat grumbling about the cost of a $30 quality marine polish to protect the investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Here is an idea, instead of, out fitted in Arctic Cat or Skidoo logo gear, buy HJC or FXR at royal and the diffrance would cover your permit. we buy snowboarder gear at about 1/4 of the price for sled specific gear. one permit costs more than my pants and coat, that i can wear season after season. and .02 as far as i know, Dub is not in a grooming association but, i will default to Luc to enlighten us. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 it's not about the 10.00 in two years. it is about the trail permit going up OVER TRIPLE, what it was from 1999 to now. from 80 bux to 260. it's about less trail miles, less loops open, less grooming by clubs due to, LIMITATIONS ON GROOMING PUT FORTH BY THE OFSC. clubs are affraid to start grooming because, they dont want to "go over their alotted hours". in recent years they were told funding would be witheld, if they didnt groom at least once a week (wether the trails needed it or not). NOW THEY LIMIT CLUBS TO 330 HOURS PER SEASON MAX. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. EITHER LET THEM GROOM WHEN THEY WANT/NEED. OR STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE PROCESS. the regional and club levels know more about the locales than the main ofsc body. the local clubs should have a say in when, how often, how early, and how late they can groom. DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF SNOW AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. I AM ASTOUNDED THAT DUBREUILVILLE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED THE GROOMER YET, AND HERE WE ARE STARTING THE 4TH WEEK OF JANUARY. THEY HAVE WAITED BECAUSE OF THEIR LONGER SEASON, THEY DONT WANT TO BE OVER GROOMING HOURS FOR LATE SEASON. THIS WAS BROUGHT ON BY THE OFSC. Ski Ski, the OFSC had absoluty NOTHING to do with this hour limit if there is one. The clubs and their district decide how much money they have to spend on grooming. NO ONE ELSE. Please quit knocking the OFSC for with out the organization there would be no clubs and no trails.I'm sick of this BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 if the ofsc folded tomorrow, the clubs and trails would still be there. if you dont think that, i'd like some of what you're smokin. remember there were trails and clubs, LOOOOOOOONG BEFORE THERE WAS THE OFSC. now... the interconnected province wide trail systems might end, except for those communities working together. and funding would be an issue but, the machines, trails, and club members would be there. and if you read above, i did state... i am defaulting to a fellow connected club member for more info. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skis Up Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Classic my sticker says OFSC on it not groomer assor district or club they can dictate that trails must be groomed. Iam also sick of seeing trails that have enough snow but clubs are saving hours. Next year they can kiss my 2 stickers bye bye. Que and Mi here I come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 it's not about the 10.00 in two years. it is about the trail permit going up OVER TRIPLE, what it was from 1999 to now. from 80 bux to 260. it's about less trail miles, less loops open, less grooming by clubs due to, LIMITATIONS ON GROOMING PUT FORTH BY THE OFSC. clubs are affraid to start grooming because, they dont want to "go over their alotted hours". in recent years they were told funding would be witheld, if they didnt groom at least once a week (wether the trails needed it or not). NOW THEY LIMIT CLUBS TO 330 HOURS PER SEASON MAX. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. EITHER LET THEM GROOM WHEN THEY WANT/NEED. OR STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE PROCESS. the regional and club levels know more about the locales than the main ofsc body. the local clubs should have a say in when, how often, how early, and how late they can groom. DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF SNOW AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. I AM ASTOUNDED THAT DUBREUILVILLE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED THE GROOMER YET, AND HERE WE ARE STARTING THE 4TH WEEK OF JANUARY. THEY HAVE WAITED BECAUSE OF THEIR LONGER SEASON, THEY DONT WANT TO BE OVER GROOMING HOURS FOR LATE SEASON. THIS WAS BROUGHT ON BY THE OFSC. Ski the OFSC actually pushes the clubs to groom as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrhz06 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Anyone else notice that the guys complaining the most about permit prices don't even live in Ontario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Anyone else notice that the guys complaining the most about permit prices don't even live in Ontario? True. I would like to see the pass at 180 for early season and 300 after dec ist. Forget the regional bs and this larger price difference would get more people to buy early instead of sitting on the fence. If they raise the season pass next year in order to create cheaper regional permits, i won't be buying anything ahead of time. My two cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrhz06 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 $210 early price and $280 after Dec 1st plus early and after Dec1st classics next year also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 $210 early price and $280 after Dec 1st plus early and after Dec1st classics next year also. Getting better thanks for the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski-dog Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I see 3 issues at play here. 1) Lack of snow - Self explanantory, if we had tons of snow and trails in good conditions we would all be thrilled and out sledding instead of hanging out on forums. Trail permit would seem a bargain. 2) Lack of understanding of what it takes to operate a trail system in Ontario. Many who complain have not likely had detailed involvement with the OFSC or local club. Many who support the fees have most likely had some level of exposure as to what it really takes. This is understandable and to some degree not unexpected. If anyone really wants to know what it takes get involved............ Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. 3) Perspective - As humans we tend to focus on items that concern us without comparing it on a common level or plane. I will use a simple example to attempt to explain. Most everyone complains about the price of fuel. It would seem over the past year an average price for a litre of fuel is about 1.20 per litre. We moan and groan and its in the news etc etc you get the picture the picture. Now you go to the gas station and fill up your vehicle at $1.20 per litre and feel the drain as the tank fills chug -a-lug chug-a-lug. If you have a truck probably handed over a $100 or so. Wow, but your thirsty, might as well buy a bottle of water to quench your thirst and go to the cooler and pick up a 500 ml bottle of water (0.5 litre) pay $1 to $1.50 and think absolutely nothing of it. You just paid $2 or more per litre for a simple bottle of water that someone poured in with minimal refining. Now think of everything that went into producing that litre of fuel which you actually paid less per litre for..... perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrhz06 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Well said ski-dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Yeah, but you can get water out of the tap for free too. Brides I can't drink 100 litres of bottle water in 6 hours, but my truck can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisracing1 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 And insurance and fuel and spring and fall startup/winterize. Dockage fees run $20-30 plus per foot per season at a lot of marinas, plus hydro and pumpout.Trailer? Winter storage. Got one of those (or three) insurance 240/year full coverage(a third of what my new snowmobile was)....do my own winterize and startup(screw_all).....i boat locally,no need to dock.....no need for hydro....no need for pumpout....trailer i already have(short trips)....i store my boat for free ...........so to shoot down all your supposed costs.....way way cheaper...and 100% more use......but it isnt sledding ....unfortunatly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 So basically what you're saying is that your love of the sport has to be based on how wealthy you are??. Example: A family pulls in a income in excess of $100,000 and there is many that do as opposed to B family that pulls in $60,000 to $70,000. A family clearly has more resources to enjoy the sport than B family which according to your logic doesn't deserve to be in the sport because he can't keep up with A family! That's ludicrous! I am not sure where you are coming from. All i am saying is, is that all the complaining about the trail permit, WHICH is the cheapest part of the sport is kinda retarted. And doing this will NEVER fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 It amazes me how people cheap out on some things. I go to the marina in Port Credit and see a guy with a $150,000 boat grumbling about the cost of a $30 quality marine polish to protect the investment. X2, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Yeah, but you can get water out of the tap for free too. Brides I can't drink 100 litres of bottle water in 6 hours, but my truck can. My water is metered! Not free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I am not sure where you are coming from. All i am saying is, is that all the complaining about the trail permit, WHICH is the cheapest part of the sport is kinda retarted. And doing this will NEVER fix the problem. specially considering many are paying way more for insurance vs a permit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave K Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Classic my sticker says OFSC on it not groomer assor district or club they can dictate that trails must be groomed. Iam also sick of seeing trails that have enough snow but clubs are saving hours. Next year they can kiss my 2 stickers bye bye. Que and Mi here I come. Just curious, how much gas will $420 buy you when trailering to Que or MI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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