killer Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 like soupkid said there is sticker shock above $200. Clubs need the money early, too many people are waiting to buy or not buying at all and holding cash in their pocket, and they never get caught because nodoby wants to be a trail patrol bad guy, or they just want to ride (I'm a trail patrol FWIW). I thought the regional permit idea was for ALL permits, this is the first i've heard otherwise? buy where you ride is great in CONCEPT. it doesn't work. people buy where its easiest, which for most is in Southern ontario. the regional permit will create a nightmare for trail patrol and OPP, people WILL cheat it and not feel bad about it (I couldn't imagine riding without a permit, and feeling like I'm going to get caught). also, with the regional permit the north region will get minimal if any sales from, so they will have to rely on the full permit sales and transfer payments. the regional permit will only help the more populated regions IMO. which dont need the funding as much and are already sending a good portion of sales to lesser populated (but snow friendly) areas. I can see the richer southern clubs liking the regional, and vis versa for the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 That is one thing that is beoing asked of all clubs already. We trimmed most of our fat back a few years ago and are very lean in the trails dept now News to me. We've never been asked to trim down our trails by anyone. In fact the MTO has forced us to spend money on building a new trail for next year ( major re route) and a minor re route last year! Who issued the statement to reduce club trails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 That is one thing that is beoing asked of all clubs already. We trimmed most of our fat back a few years ago and are very lean in the trails dept now I think trail rationalization will be part of the discussion but 1 thing I have learned is that clubs are very protective of their networks. Dont forget that its the club that answers to permit buyer, not the District, not the OFSC, I think a serious investigation into the costs in our system is needed. Based on some preliminary work in our District we are finding that Trail Costs (building. maitenance, repairs signage etc) have a huge disparity between clubs. Same for grooming expenses. Some clubs seem to be able to operate trails and groom much less expensively than their neighbouring clubs. And if that is just 1 District, what happens when you look at the entire province. An unbiased, open minded investigation into the operating costs just might unlock a large funding source for the entire system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Just curious as to why you would oppose this? I say get rid of the regional! I'm not. Just saying the $180 regional- classic will only be available before Nov 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 It's not only for classics its for all sleds! My understanding its just for classics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Once more for those that don't understand I have 1st hand knowledge of the framwork for change. Uber ealy full season only $180 (before Nov 1st) Early Bird $210 (Between Nov 2nd and Dec 1st) Full season $280 (After Dec 1st) Regional Classic $140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Ski, the limitation on grooming hours and loops was imposed by District 13, not the OFSC. This is reflected in a limitation of the distribution of district funding to the clubs. This is NOT OFSC imposed. There is some misinformation regarding the PROPOSAL for next year as well. I have seen nothing regarding a proposal for a Pre Nov 1 price!!! NO CLASSIC PERMIT! It is expected that classic sleds would probably be regional use only. Regional Permit to be priced at just over half the cost of a full provincial permit In order for this to be approved, all of the following four aspect must be approved. The following is quoted from the "Framework for Change" presentation at AGM 1. Maintain a Provincial Full Season Permit with a substantial after Dec 1 increase – (say $210/$300). 2. Establish 5 Regional Permits priced at just over half of the Provincial rate – (say $125/$175). No Classic program. 3. Support provincial programs through a MSV registration surcharge for all snowmobiles – (say $20 per sled). 4. Establish enhanced permit enforcement powers for Trail Patrol members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Once more for those that don't understand I have 1st hand knowledge of the framwork for change. Uber ealy full season only $180 (before Nov 1st) Early Bird $210 (Between Nov 2nd and Dec 1st) Full season $280 (After Dec 1st) Regional Classic $140 If that is the way it is, that will work, as long as the revenue from the val tags goes to the system. That would give enough money to keep helping under funded clubs. That was not the way I understood it though, and it didn't seem real clear on the survey that the regional permit was for classics only, but some times my reading leaves allot to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 like soupkid said there is sticker shock above $200. Clubs need the money early, too many people are waiting to buy or not buying at all and holding cash in their pocket, and they never get caught because nodoby wants to be a trail patrol bad guy, or they just want to ride (I'm a trail patrol FWIW). I thought the regional permit idea was for ALL permits, this is the first i've heard otherwise? buy where you ride is great in CONCEPT. it doesn't work. people buy where its easiest, which for most is in Southern ontario. the regional permit will create a nightmare for trail patrol and OPP, people WILL cheat it and not feel bad about it (I couldn't imagine riding without a permit, and feeling like I'm going to get caught). also, with the regional permit the north region will get minimal if any sales from, so they will have to rely on the full permit sales and transfer payments. the regional permit will only help the more populated regions IMO. which dont need the funding as much and are already sending a good portion of sales to lesser populated (but snow friendly) areas. I can see the richer southern clubs liking the regional, and vis versa for the north. Killer, i hear you about the sticker shock at $200 and maybe that is the tipping point. But I have troubles with puther parts of your argument. First, how does a super early discount address the current behaviour of buying where its most convenient. If all these Southern Ontarion permit buyers are riding up north, would it not make sense for them to be buying a Northern Region Permit? With on-line sales its easy to direct your permit to your riding area as opposed to trying to find a permit outlet in another community. Secondly, why is this such a big deal for Trail patrol to enforce. I'm a TP also and in our District we deal with border issues now. Albeit its Ontario/Quebec but a border none the same. The bigger problem is that the penalties lack teeth and enforecment is too sporadic to disuade the freeloaders. I like the Quebec system of huge price increase if you buy on trail. Finally, as to sales in the northern Districts. I think its safe to say that most northern permit buyers never travel south to ride. So if that psoition is true, would they not support a Regional permit that allows them to ride in their traditional areas at a cheaper price than even the super early discount? One final note to everyone. The District Govenors have agreed to presenting the Framework for Change update at their Distric meeting in January. I think its critically important that each club is well represented at that presentation to hear first hand what the current propsal entails. The more informed everyone is, the better the outcome will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I remember reading about this and thinking how ridiculous it was. The mouth of the Nottawasaga river is part of the Provincial Park. If you walk out from the shore into the river it slopes off gradually and then suddenly drops off. There aren't any signs there except on the bay side they warn of undertow and current. Prime for a law suit should somebody go wading and go for a sudden dunk. Its a friggin lake not a pool!!!!!! This cannot be allowed, our society go broke. crap happens, get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 If that is the way it is, that will work, as long as the revenue from the val tags goes to the system. That would give enough money to keep helping under funded clubs. That was not the way I understood it though, and it didn't seem real clear on the survey that the regional permit was for classics only, but some times my reading leaves allot to be desired. The survey is what the proposed changes are based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killer Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Killer, i hear you about the sticker shock at $200 and maybe that is the tipping point. But I have troubles with puther parts of your argument. First, how does a super early discount address the current behaviour of buying where its most convenient. If all these Southern Ontarion permit buyers are riding up north, would it not make sense for them to be buying a Northern Region Permit? With on-line sales its easy to direct your permit to your riding area as opposed to trying to find a permit outlet in another community. Secondly, why is this such a big deal for Trail patrol to enforce. I'm a TP also and in our District we deal with border issues now. Albeit its Ontario/Quebec but a border none the same. The bigger problem is that the penalties lack teeth and enforecment is too sporadic to disuade the freeloaders. I like the Quebec system of huge price increase if you buy on trail. Finally, as to sales in the northern Districts. I think its safe to say that most northern permit buyers never travel south to ride. So if that psoition is true, would they not support a Regional permit that allows them to ride in their traditional areas at a cheaper price than even the super early discount? One final note to everyone. The District Govenors have agreed to presenting the Framework for Change update at their Distric meeting in January. I think its critically important that each club is well represented at that presentation to hear first hand what the current propsal entails. The more informed everyone is, the better the outcome will be. I am in full agreeance that the funding model needs to change, part of it is setting up a sustainable permit fee structure and sticking with it. too many changes recently have hurt the system - $20 price increases hurt, and that statistics prove that, even though it is a drop in the bucket and below inflation, a $5 hit every 2 years is more condusive to membership. Getting rid of day passes (that clubs say were stupid, yet permit buyers love - HUGE disconnect there with your members), and adding classic permits without ANY metrics for calculating how effective it will be. People do NOT buy where they ride or rode, that's a huge part of the problem. Asking someone to select a club to support is nothing more than a popularity contest. Most people have no idea how much they rode or will ride in a certain clubs borders, and I'd argue most riders travel across many districts and many clubs in a given year. I am sure most riders will support the regional permit idea, we are offering a 50% reduction to their cost - why wouldn't someone support it? that is flawed logic because WE need to be mindful of the system and revenues and to me, after crunching some numbers there is NO way we will increase the number of permitted sleds enough with the introduction of a regional permit, to offset the loss to regular permit sales. This is the exact problem we encoutnered with the mess that is the classic. There are clubs that sell thousands of permits every year, have an active volunteer base, maybe a club house, yet haven't opened a trail in years, and when they have, its minimal and short lived. NONE of those permit buyers from these clubs ride those trails and they sure as hell wouldn't buy a permit if they excepted to only ride those trails (close to home). they buy a permit from their club and go ride elsewhere. This represents the marjority of riders in the north - touring riders from elsewhere, so the locals who currenlty buy full seasons permits will be buying regionals, that's nearly a 50% loss in revenue right there. Add in the loss in revenue from full seasons sales in other districts from those riders selecting a regional. There are a few people who want to be cops that are TP, I am not one of them. I do not want to get in confrontations with people, I dont like being the bad guy and I will NEVER go to court for a tresspass charge. waste of my time and money. I do not sell permits on the trail either, I ride too little in my club area, rarely find non-complient sleds and can't be bothered. Trail Patrol IMO should be more about education than policing. I dont see what "teeth" we can give TP to make the program more effective, and haven't heard anything around the specifics. There are too many clubs, and too many trails, but I do believe only the clubs can decide what trails to open, groom, etc. At the end of the day the OFSC has to work hard at crunching the numbers and needs to focus on the real problem: Snow making equipment for 20,000kms of trails The survey is what the proposed changes are based on. good to hear, sounds like the survey may have worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 the regional permit will create a nightmare for trail patrol and OPP, people WILL cheat it and not feel bad about it (I couldn't imagine riding without a permit, and feeling like I'm going to get caught). also, with the regional permit the north region will get minimal if any sales from, so they will have to rely on the full permit sales and transfer payments. the regional permit will only help the more populated regions IMO. which dont need the funding as much and are already sending a good portion of sales to lesser populated (but snow friendly) areas. I can see the richer southern clubs liking the regional, and vis versa for the north. Regional Classic permit can be easy to monitor Each region/district can have a different color and say D 12 D5 That can't be that hard to enforce You see a D 4 sled on a D13 trail, BOOOM you fine them for trespassing the issue then remains though for the fellow that is on the border of a region/district Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 So if I am reading this right, the survey , (which would of been filled out just by present trail users) proved that the trail users agreed that the rest of the provinces "non trail users" should pay for their sport with the $20 of dValidation tags to MTO. Wow what did they think the survey would say. Now actually the survey should go to all the "non trail users" snow machine owners (mainly Northern Ontario) and let us voice our opinions. Do you see how self serving that survey was !!!! How dare the OFSC think they speak for all Snow machine owners of the province ...........they don't !!! But I can see the MTO getting sucked into it , they will start charging Northern folks $35 and keep the extra $15 for Liberal use elsewhere. I already informed the Liberal MP about this underhanded way to get funding , he replied last week that he is going to dig into it further with MTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 The survey is what the proposed changes are based on. If that is the way it is, that will work, as long as the revenue from the val tags goes to the system. That would give enough money to keep helping under funded clubs. That was not the way I understood it though, and it didn't seem real clear on the survey that the regional permit was for classics only, but some times my reading leaves allot to be desired. maybe things where unclear, or maybe I read it wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killer Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Regional Classic permit can be easy to monitor Each region/district can have a different color and say D 12 D5 That can't be that hard to enforce You see a D 4 sled on a D13 trail, BOOOM you fine them for trespassing the issue then remains though for the fellow that is on the border of a region/district you need people to enforce the rules first. Its also a tough call for a volunteer to lay a tresspassing charge, turn someone around, or have to sell an upgraded permit to a classic sled 10miles across the border. I am in favor of the regional classic idea as has been suggested here (only learned about this here today), in large part because most classic sleds dont leave their general riding area as it stands, I'm not a big fan of the overall regional permit OR the current classic permit. So if I am reading this right, the survey , (which would of been filled out just by present trail users) proved that the trail users agreed that the rest of the provinces "non trail users" should pay for their sport with the $20 of dValidation tags to MTO. Wow what did they think the survey would say. Now actually the survey should go to all the "non trail users" snow machine owners (mainly Northern Ontario) and let us voice our opinions. Do you see how self serving that survey was !!!! How dare the OFSC think they speak for all Snow machine owners of the province ...........they don't !!! But I can see the MTO getting sucked into it , they will start charging Northern folks $35 and keep the extra $15 for Liberal use elsewhere. I already informed the Liberal MP about this underhanded way to get funding , he replied last week that he is going to dig into it further with MTO. The survey was sent to current and past trail permit holders. The OFSC can't market to the general public, only those it has contact infor for.... so they didnt' send it to the Cambridge islamic community centre group (unless of course one of them was a permit holder)..really too bad so sad. the rest of the province has coughed up registration fees that pay for northern highways for years. If you dont like it dont register the sled. if you aren't using it on the trails there is very little chance of getting caught and you can still get insurance for the sled even if its unregistered. at the end of the day the $20 you may have to pay (we already pay $15 south of the mason/dixie line) to register your sled will help promote organized snowmobiling across the province & it helps everyone. If you're okay with it, I will quit paying taxes to fund your schools and hospitals I will never use. We pay for many things today that we will never see the benefit of. Also, currently the province kicks in millions in grants - all Taxpayer funded, to the OFSC to help build bridges and trails. These are funds from ALL Ontarians used to support snowmobiiling. Yet here you are complaining about a $20 registration fee on your SNOWMOBILE? GMAFB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 you need people to enforce the rules first. Its also a tough call for a volunteer to lay a tresspassing charge, turn someone around, or have to sell an upgraded permit to a classic sled 10miles across the border. I am in favor of the regional classic idea as has been suggested here (only learned about this here today), in large part because most classic sleds dont leave their general riding area as it stands, I'm not a big fan of the overall regional permit OR the current classic permit. Yes it would be his/her call, especially if the rider lives/ cottage within a few miles of the border of said region/district I use to put on myself in the 90s 3000-5500kms yr and all were with the STP 8 clubs trails and even then rarely went to say Soupkids side of the trail system. Only when I met my Ex Wife I travelled out side the Sudbury area and rode in Parry Sound and once up North Bay on a club ride, by then I was averaging 1500kms a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 The province has kicked in $3 milion a year for I don't know how long and it will come to an end. The val tag revenue is going to be the ONLY source of sustainable funding we will have any chance of getting. Based on the following estimated #'s do you really think a non permittted sled NEVER travels on a groomed trail somepoint. estimated registered sleds 120 k Permit buyers 60 k That leaves 50% non permitted. A perfect example of a non permitted sled not needing a permit. C trail North of Sudbury to Shining Tree/Timmins. There are many lake and camps up that way, by the exemptions a fisherman, camp owner, crown land lease holder does not need a permit to access if he/she uses the closest road access. I know of people that travel 50 miles of groomed trail to access such places and they do not have to buy a permit and many don't. Do they benifit directly from a groomed trail ????? with the number listed above we will have a short fall of 600K if we get $20 per val tag ($20 x 120000) The numbers abouve are only guesstimates, there really is no firm data on how many registered sleds in the province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 You know funding and all this other crap wouldn't be a problem if it would just F'ing snow. 09/10 seemed like a good year, I only rode my local club because I didn't have a trailer at the time but still rode enought to keep me happy. 10/11 was hit and miss in some places, was this time of year before my club opened and we ran until mid March. But we were one of the lucky ones. 11/12 sucked my club never opened, and it was trailer city for everyone south of hwy7 12/13 the year started great but than came the rain, and now it's the 21st of January and unless you want to go North Bay or Petawawa area you're SOL. No matter what we do, when the last 3 winters out of 4, were questionable or down right shitty. Reworking the permit system isn't going to sell permits. We needed this winter to start strong and stay strong. To draw people who gave up, back in, and to bring new blood with them. So far it's looking like this year could be worse than last year. So if we have had 3 bad years in a row, should there not be a bunch of unused permit money in the bank somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 There will be some, no fuel last year, and very little this year so far. Still spendin 4m a year for insurance though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Get a life Killer and quit the northern bashing and ridiculous claims of paying for us Northern folks, that was not even my point. My point is similarily if you send a survey to only Toronto cyclists on whether car owners should pay more taxes to pay for cycle paths I wonder how many of the survey would state YES cars should pay more for our cycling sport. As for whether to buy a val tag or not , that will be a new choice and so the statisitics of how many folks will actually spend the twenty will be inflatted, many will take their chances and now won't . Or the opposite will happen , those that now spend the extra 20 (but still have no need for a trail permit) will purposely go over to the trail and get their twenty bucks worth ...........not exactly the best way to win back customers to the OFSC by alienating the somewhat limited potential customer base that is left . Tell ya what Killer or Dweese............if they do impose the val tagand $20 surcharge, I will instead mail you a check for $20 since you seem to be unable to afford your sport and must need the money , for diapers or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Get a life Dweese and quit the northern bashing and ridiculous claims of paying for us Northern folks, that was not even my point. My point is similarily if you send a survey to only Toronto cyclists on whether car owners should pay more taxes to pay for cycle paths I wonder how many of the survey would state YES cars should pay more for our cycling sport. As for whether to buy a val tag or not , that will be a new choice and so the statisitics of how many folks will actually spend the twenty will be inflatted, many will take their chances and now won't . Or the opposite will happen , those that now spend the extra 20 (but still have no need for a trail permit) will purposely go over to the trail and get their twenty bucks worth ...........not exactly the best way to win back customers to the OFSC by alienating the somewhat limited potential customer base that is left . Tell ya what Dweese............if they do impose the val tagand $20 surcharge, I will instead mail you a check for $20 since you seem to be unable to afford your sport and must need the money , for diapers or something? so far, you seem to be the only one with a full diaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killer Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Get a life Dweese and quit the northern bashing and ridiculous claims of paying for us Northern folks, that was not even my point. My point is similarily if you send a survey to only Toronto cyclists on whether car owners should pay more taxes to pay for cycle paths I wonder how many of the survey would state YES cars should pay more for our cycling sport. As for whether to buy a val tag or not , that will be a new choice and so the statisitics of how many folks will actually spend the twenty will be inflatted, many will take their chances and now won't . Or the opposite will happen , those that now spend the extra 20 (but still have no need for a trail permit) will purposely go over to the trail and get their twenty bucks worth ...........not exactly the best way to win back customers to the OFSC by alienating the somewhat limited potential customer base that is left . Tell ya what Dweese............if they do impose the val tagand $20 surcharge, I will instead mail you a check for $20 since you seem to be unable to afford your sport and must need the money , for diapers or something? I think you meant me, which is fine. I have absolutely nothing against the north, quite the opposite actually, but truthfully I care most about snowmobile trails in Ontario. thing is, its really YOU who doesn't care about the north or northerners. Snowmobiling brings in over a billion dollars to communities around the province, and that number is shrinking, in large part because of trails and amenities closing in the north. When clubs fold and trails fold, so do permit sales in that area. In response to your ridiculous question about the survey and why you didnt' receive it, there are 2 answers. A. the OFSC sent the survey and only has email contact info on those where/are OFSC permit holders, and B. they sent it to a group of about 8000 people, both current and former permit holders, by EMAIL only. Does the OFSC have your email info? if you feel this strongly about paying $20 for a registration fee on your snowmobiles write to your MPP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 You know if a company or anyone just wants to get the same "yes we agree" answer then the best way to do it is to make it dificult to ever hear an alternative point of view. This Website is supposedly for all snowmachine operators to share their opinions. This weekend I enjoyed running my little 340 Cat back to my Sugar Bush trails and then all over an empty hayfield of mine, it is a fun sport especcially on powder snow, this weekend I hope to bring my grand daughter to McCarrol Lake for some ice fishing, it is a rural snow packed road the whole way, just need val tag and insurance , no groomed trails required, there are thousands of us in North that don't need the OFSC trails, but except for a few of us we are pretty silent. But seeing some of the attitudes here makes us realize why we would never set foot in a OFSC type Club. Ps I never once said I should of got survey , I said they sent it to the audience that they would get the answer they wanted. Already wrote to eight MPP's, two responded with interest so far. Also the sport is dieing because of lack of snow and economy and American border issues , not just because of permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Bottom line is very few area's have snow. D5 and d9, still no snow. I am driving 6 hours to ride next week, since I am tired of waiting for snow. This could be my only trip this year. I should have only bought a 3 day pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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