Big Pete Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 So if I am reading this right, the survey , (which would of been filled out just by present trail users) proved that the trail users agreed that the rest of the provinces "non trail users" should pay for their sport with the $20 of dValidation tags to MTO. Wow what did they think the survey would say. Now actually the survey should go to all the "non trail users" snow machine owners (mainly Northern Ontario) and let us voice our opinions. Do you see how self serving that survey was !!!! How dare the OFSC think they speak for all Snow machine owners of the province ...........they don't !!! But I can see the MTO getting sucked into it , they will start charging Northern folks $35 and keep the extra $15 for Liberal use elsewhere. I already informed the Liberal MP about this underhanded way to get funding , he replied last week that he is going to dig into it further with MTO. How about we set the record straight on the Framework For Change Survey. Here is an excerpt from the presentation each District Gove is giving to their respective District: Note that 12,000 surveys were emailed and 2008 responses received. Only the responses from the invited were counted. I know the survey limk was posted on this and many other forums but those responses were filtered out. •Invitation email was sent to 4,000 current and 8,000 lapsed permit holders (accepted benefits) selected randomly. •Invitations limited to respect concerns expressed by MTO that a broader distribution might unnecessarily raise expectations. •2,008 qualified surveys available for analysis: Ø24% of current snowmobilers who routinely purchase trail permits each season say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. Ø58% of current snowmobilers who may or may not purchase a permit in any particular season say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. Ø54% of current snowmobilers who have chosen not to purchase a permit say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. Ø54% of former snowmobilers say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. ØThe majority of all rider types agree that the Framework changes will be good for snowmobiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 You know if a company or anyone just wants to get the same "yes we agree" answer then the best way to do it is to make it dificult to ever hear an alternative point of view. This Website is supposedly for all snowmachine operators to share their opinions. This weekend I enjoyed running my little 340 Cat back to my Sugar Bush trails and then all over an empty hayfield of mine, it is a fun sport especcially on powder snow, this weekend I hope to bring my grand daughter to McCarrol Lake for some ice fishing, it is a rural snow packed road the whole way, just need val tag and insurance , no groomed trails required, there are thousands of us in North that don't need the OFSC trails, but except for a few of us we are pretty silent. But seeing some of the attitudes here makes us realize why we would never set foot in a OFSC type Club. Ps I never once said I should of got survey , I said they sent it to the audience that they would get the answer they wanted. Already wrote to eight MPP's, two responded with interest so far. Also the sport is dieing because of lack of snow and economy and American border issues , not just because of permits. Nothing is going to make everybody happy all the time, right now your taxes are supporting snowmobiling in ontario and you don't even know it. The OFSC (which are the clubs) knows that there are going to be those that are opposed to it, so does the gov't. Nobody knows what the correct answer is. I do believe that you never step foot on a groomed tral, but there are many that do !! If MTO just said the us Northeener's are goingto start paying $20 to register our sleds and you didn't know where the money was going what would you say ?? Right now NO doesn't pay but SO does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Already wrote to eight MPP's, two responded with interest so far. You got a form letter drafted by an office worker on pre-signed letter head. MPP's are too busy getting ready for the spring election Timmy-boy is going to try and call. So they are more worried about keeping their cushy jobs, than you and your snowmobile. I've gotten the same ones over bigger more important issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Its a friggin lake not a pool!!!!!! This cannot be allowed, our society go broke. crap happens, get over it. I am in agreement with you. How can anyone expect to have a sign posted for every single potential danger in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I am in agreement with you. How can anyone expect to have a sign posted for every single potential danger in life. City posts THIN ICE sign on all man made lakes within the city even though there is 3 feet of ice It is to cover their asses from stupid lawsuits from stupid people What happened to the days of letting stupid people die from their own stupidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killer Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Thanks for sharing that Pete. good response from an eblast. The permit buyer cares and needs to be heard from more, but so do former permit buyers. im not sure we will get most of tgem back, unless we get a string of good winters... How about we set the record straight on the Framework For Change Survey. Here is an excerpt from the presentation each District Gove is giving to their respective District: Note that 12,000 surveys were emailed and 2008 responses received. Only the responses from the invited were counted. I know the survey limk was posted on this and many other forums but those responses were filtered out. •Invitation email was sent to 4,000 current and 8,000 lapsed permit holders (accepted benefits) selected randomly. •Invitations limited to respect concerns expressed by MTO that a broader distribution might unnecessarily raise expectations. •2,008 qualified surveys available for analysis: Ø24% of current snowmobilers who routinely purchase trail permits each season say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. Ø58% of current snowmobilers who may or may not purchase a permit in any particular season say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. Ø54% of current snowmobilers who have chosen not to purchase a permit say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. Ø54% of former snowmobilers say they will be somewhat, or much more likely, to purchase permits. ØThe majority of all rider types agree that the Framework changes will be good for snowmobiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I still think the cost of the Trail permit is the smallest of all your costs compared to: insurance, maintenance and sled/gear purchase cost yet it is the most scrutinized. I think the OFSC is very cognizant of the fact that the past few winters haven't been banner years and have held the line on the cost of the permit in the face of increasing operating costs. The cost to insure and save clubs harmless from those who look to financially gain from their own stupidity is the major driver of increased costs. I do however, believe that the OFSC has to look at a formula that keeps trails open in the North and thus our expansive trail system. They don't have the membership base to support the cost of operations. We also have to lobby the Provincial Government for more financial support to keep an industry that many remote communities rely on in the winter. We need to demonstrate the economic benefit snowmobiling has to these communities. We need to lobby for legislative change so that volunteer organizations offering off-road activity trails that users are supposed to ride at their own risk are saved from vexatious lawsuits. Sounds good to me,.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 again most riders stay in their own area and do not take advantage of the 30,000kms of trails The permit is a bargain, but we need to make a better argument than we have 30,000kms of trails Yep that is so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 specially considering many are paying way more for insurance vs a permit Older sleds pay less for insurance then the permit. 2000 600 is only a hundred bucks for insurance 2005 1000 is only 135 bucks. That makes the insurance cheapest part of sledding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Once more for those that don't understand I have 1st hand knowledge of the framwork for change. Uber ealy full season only $180 (before Nov 1st) Early Bird $210 (Between Nov 2nd and Dec 1st) Full season $280 (After Dec 1st) Regional Classic $140 That was not the 4 step that the OFSC put out only a few short weeks ago! But can I buy one in Sept for 120 bucks? This Classic only regional 180 early early is something that I have not recieved any e-mails from the OFSC on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 What a lot forget about is people are strange creatures! Most now do not buy permits because of the point of the price. Nothing to do with whether they can afford it or not. See you have to have a sled to ride. You have to have a suit and helmet of some kind to ride. You have to have insurance because the fine is 5,000 dollars and you need to go into town where all the cops are to get gas. BUT YOU DON'T NEED A PERMIT! You can ride the lakes, ditches and any other OFSC trail on crown land you want. Police won't charge you except on private lands where the OFSC has agreements with the land owners. Its why Distric 17 has lobbied the OFSC for Val tag only permits. Why the Southern Districs resist this so much is beyound me? Its the solution to the problem but it is shrugged off in favor of higher permit prices and more policing for trail passes. Higher passes loose riders, more permit policing takes volunteers away from the trail work to chase down people who if Val tag permits came to be would not exist! You want change I give you change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Older sleds pay less for insurance then the permit. 2000 600 is only a hundred bucks for insurance 2005 1000 is only 135 bucks. That makes the insurance cheapest part of sledding. care to share where you are getting your insurance from? I am paying more than $135 for a 2005 1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 care to share where you are getting your insurance from? I am paying more than $135 for a 2005 1000 What's that get you? I get full coverage on my 04 500ss for $210 with TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 What's that get you? I get full coverage on my 04 500ss for $210 with TD. I was asking what and where he gets insurance for $135. My wifes sled is about $220 for a Legend 1000 with liability fire/theft and going through the ice. When you say full coverage is that collision as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I was asking what and where he gets insurance for $135. My wifes sled is about $220 for a Legend 1000 with liability fire/theft and going through the ice. When you say full coverage is that collision as well. Yup covers collision too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 What a lot forget about is people are strange creatures! Most now do not buy permits because of the point of the price. Nothing to do with whether they can afford it or not. See you have to have a sled to ride. You have to have a suit and helmet of some kind to ride. You have to have insurance because the fine is 5,000 dollars and you need to go into town where all the cops are to get gas. BUT YOU DON'T NEED A PERMIT! You can ride the lakes, ditches and any other OFSC trail on crown land you want. Police won't charge you except on private lands where the OFSC has agreements with the land owners. Its why Distric 17 has lobbied the OFSC for Val tag only permits. Why the Southern Districs resist this so much is beyound me? Its the solution to the problem but it is shrugged off in favor of higher permit prices and more policing for trail passes. Higher passes loose riders, more permit policing takes volunteers away from the trail work to chase down people who if Val tag permits came to be would not exist! You want change I give you change! You cannot ride on crown land that has been designated a prescribed trail through an LUP on that trail with the provinve unless you meet one of the clearly written exemptions from the MSVA. Police will and do enforce the permit on crown land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Its why Distric 17 has lobbied the OFSC for Val tag only permits. Why the Southern Districs resist this so much is beyound me? Its the solution to the problem but it is shrugged off in favor of higher permit prices and more policing for trail passes. Higher passes loose riders, more permit policing takes volunteers away from the trail work to chase down people who if Val tag permits came to be would not exist! From what I've seen here on this board it's the North that doesn't support the linked val tag system, as there is a lot more open land without OFSC trails to ride on. In the south it seems every open place (the little we have) is an OFSC trail that's why the link val tag system doesn't bother me. You cannot ride on crown land that has been designated a prescribed trail through an LUP on that trail with the provinve unless you meet one of the clearly written exemptions from the MSVA. Police will and do enforce the permit on crown land. Your right, problem is... Lot more land and a lot less cops to enforce it. The easy fix with the linked val tag system is to give those the option to opt out of the permit side of the tag, and put a $5000 fine in place if your riding a trail without a permit same as for no insurance. Those who don't ride the trails would be happy, and the freeloaders would think twice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 You cannot ride on crown land that has been designated a prescribed trail through an LUP on that trail with the provinve unless you meet one of the clearly written exemptions from the MSVA. Police will and do enforce the permit on crown land. I think what he is referring to is any parcel of Crown land where an OFSC trail passes through, and no LUP exists. You do not need a permit. You do not need to meet one of the exemptions under the MSVA,That is clear. However...if there is an OFSC bridge on that trail where Crown land exists you cannot legally cross the bridge without permit. The OFSC usually owns the bridges. You could be fined while on the bridge without permit. There are some Crown lands...but very, very few where the OFSC does hold a LUP for and normal trespass charges would apply as would trespass charges for private property. Is a big misconception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I think what he is referring to is any parcel of Crown land where an OFSC trail passes through, and no LUP exists. You do not need a permit. You do not need to meet one of the exemptions under the MSVA,That is clear. However...if there is an OFSC bridge on that trail where Crown land exists you cannot legally cross the bridge without permit. The OFSC usually owns the bridges. You could be fined while on the bridge without permit. There are some Crown lands...but very, very few where the OFSC does hold a LUP for and normal trespass charges would apply as would trespass charges for private property. Is a big misconception. Yep! That is why we set up on the railway tracks! Crown land both side but the tracks are private! We pay to use the crossing anually! But lakes, logging roads powelines and old railbeds are all crown. Problem with the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 From what I've seen here on this board it's the North that doesn't support the linked val tag system, as there is a lot more open land without OFSC trails to ride on. In the south it seems every open place (the little we have) is an OFSC trail that's why the link val tag system doesn't bother me. Well it was the north that put forth the Val Tag idea. But yes of course there are those in the North who oppose it. Lots of them say they never use the trails but as I sit on the side of them I see about 2/3rds and sometimes way more of the sleds with no permit. So to those who honestly never use the trails I appoligize for trying to pick your pocket but there are a even larger number of sledders who are just not paying their way and are posing as one of you. Its time all sledders pay and all sledders benifit. We used to groom trails all over, lots past local fishing lakes. People loved it. If we had half of the 2,200 sledders chipping in we could groom trails to almost every lake in the area. But with just over a hundred of those 2,200 money is tight! We closed most of our trails. The so called non trail rider does use our trails the real non trail rider can benifit from our trails and has in the past. I remember before the trails came to be. All warm and fuzzy cruising down trails someone else broke open. Hell lots of times right past where someone cut the fence open. We tresspased all over the place! Now we have permission! If the clubs fold how long before the fences go back up? Of course if someone else cuts the fence then its alright to trespass right! When I look around now it seems that everywhere the land is private its posted no tresspassing! Old trails that we used to ride 20 years ago are posted but people just go around the fence or cut it! Sure you can still get around without trespass but you wait for someone else to break the trails or take the chance of a few thousand dollars damage to your front end. Long two lane bridges are no fun and hard on skags. Running roads loaded with salt and sand are a treat as well. People wish for the old days! They can have them! I remember them all to well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Sasquatch stated “ So to those who honestly never use the trails I appoligize for trying to pick your pocket but there are a even larger number of sledders who are just not paying their way and are posing as one of you” end of quote……….. Now a sincere thanks for the apology , but punish the posers not me please.......And maybe realize that your are alienating the very innocent riders you actually want to convince to start supporting your sport and buying passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Truth be told even the gov doesn't know how many sleds are registered in the province Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Truth be told even the gov doesn't know how many sleds are registered in the province Do you really think for a second the MTO can't get a snapshot of how many sleds are registered in Ontario at any point in time with a couple of key strokes. They all go into one database and I would put money on it that is a preset query for someone in the MTO already. Government loves stats and metrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Truth be told even the gov doesn't know how many sleds are registered in the province Maybe not active sleds, because I'm sure there are a lot that don't buy a val tag anymore but still use them for ice fishing and so one, but actual tagged sleds, I'm sure the MTO could pull that in two minutes. Wonder if you file a request of information under the freedom of information act if you could get numbers from the MTO. Maybe I'll look in to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Now a sincere thanks for the apology , but punish the posers not me please.......And maybe realize that your are alienating the very innocent riders you actually want to convince to start supporting your sport and buying passes. So are you saying you can be convinced to buy a pass? That at some point in time you wish to belong to orginized sledding! That you wish to jion the people who fight for your sledding freedom! There will come a time when all sledders will realize that without orginization, groups like PETA Greenpeace etc and that real nice bit of legislation S.A.R.A will close the bush and lakes to sleds, Even in the North unless of course you are Native and I'm sure they will fight for the rest of us! Bills have been introduced to limit sled use and if these weird political activists get their way you won't even be able to run anything motorized down an old logging road or any other trail. They have pushed and will continue to push to keep us out of the Bush. They have commented that no one should be able to access crown land without a permit. S.A.R.A. is the means to do it. Scary bit of legislation that is for us in the North! Now many will say your dreaming that will never happen! Well maybe you are right because orginized groups like us lobby to keep it from happening. We are visible we have a voice. But with a huge revolt against the clubs because of permit prices and whatever other retoric I've heard a thousand times from the clubs stole our trails, to they should not be allowed to put a trail on an old logging road or rail bed. That and the trouble the OFSC is in that group who keeps you sledding on crown land will dissapear. Distric 16 is closed. Distric 17 is in bad shape. Leaves a big hole with no one representing it. Good luck trying to orginize once the law makers start to march. I predict if the OFSC ever folds the Bush will be closed to motorized traiffic by the public in a few short years! They already tear up all the bush roads and close or limit camping on lakes. Like most things though people don't wake up till its to late. Then they just P.A.M. A few bucks a year for a Val tag is a small price to pay to protect it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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