Throttle back on trail permit fees

[500ssman]

In Ontario, it’s hard to determine if the province is open for business or just looking to turn a profit. Consider the cost of a snowmobile trail permit. One would think Ontarians don’t want winter tourists, or even local snowmachine owners, riding on their trails.

In Ontario, a seasonal permit to ride groomed Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs’ trails is a whopping $260 per winter ($140 for seven days and $100 for three days).

Consider our neighbours who are more open to tourists and recreational sledding. In Minnesota, a seasonal snowmobile state trail sticker costs $36, while in Manitoba an annual Snopass costs $125 (a seven-day Snopass costs $60.50).

The winters are long and tourist camps are hurting in Northwestern Ontario. It’s time to review the costs of these permits and government subsidies for trail work.

Opening the trails to visitors and energizing a winter sport that has huge potential for the tourist industry, and recreational opportunities for local sledders should be a priority.

How come it isn’t?

Even snowmobile owners in Northwestern Ontario don’t like the high fees. Many see them as a cash grab.

If the fee was more in line with Minnesota and Manitoba, the OFSC would probably see the same or more income from trail permit sales. (Consider the township of Ear Falls: when it dropped its recreational fees for arena and golf course use to $99 from more than $200, it signed up far more memberships and realized more revenue.)

The price of riding a groomed trail should reflect the sport’s recreational benefits, and the latest winter snowfall depths, or lack thereof, not break the bank.

Northwestern Ontario Snowmobile Trails Association district administrator Audrey Robb said this week that snowmobile clubs within her association have been amalgamating in the wake of shorter seasons to ensure there are enough people to buy trail permits, and volunteers to groom trails.

Under Federation of Ontario Snowmobile Club rules, individual clubs must sell a minimum of 50 trail permits each season. Several clubs east of Thunder Bay haven’t been able to do that and have folded.

Robb said the enthusiasm for snowmobiling hasn’t appeared to wane, given the number of permits being purchased by sledders who celebrated Christmas with a brand-new machine.

“I couldn’t believe the number of people who have 2012 or 2013 models,” Robb told us.

That being said, Kevin Syrydiuk, owner of Northern Light Lake Lodge and a volunteer trail groomer, hinted that the association may have to look at charging less for permits if seasons continue to end before the traditional March break.

“It’s hard to get someone to spend $200 (for a trail permit) for only six weeks of sledding,” he said.

Yes it is, and we recommend that changing the fee structure is a good place to start.

http://www.chroniclejournal.com/editorial/daily_editorial/2013-01-04/throttle-back-trail-permit-fees

[lastzrt]

I hope you are not this board when there is snow. It's people like you who perpetuate the perception that there is not enough value in the current cost of a trail permit. (If you buy into this theory, and that is why you posted it?)

[Mossy]

Honestly I think the value has gone down and this is why many have got out of the sport. No one can change the weather!

[winterules]

I hope you are not this board when there is snow. It's people like you who perpetuate the perception that there is not enough value in the current cost of a trail permit. (If you buy into this theory, and that is why you posted it?)

X2 the permit cost is a great value and if you buy before Dec1st you can save $50 bucks as well . The permit price compared to all the other sled related cost's is the cheapest part of snowmobiling . Dam I could buy 4 years of passes for what I have into my BRP mod helmet alone .

[lastzrt]

No, we can't change the weather. But the value is still there only IF the trails are still there.

There is going to be snow somewhere, particularily on the northern trails referenced. The majority of the locals in the far north trails referenced, are not going to buy a permit at half the current price.

If every southern Ontario sledder that was going to plan to ride these trails only ONCE in a season bought their permit from one of these struggling clubs, they would have no problem meeting the minimum sales required to at least stay in the OFSC. The sales lost to the southern clubs would be a relative drop in the bucket.

[Wildbill]

Reduce the cost of insurance to the OFSC and we can roll back the cost. As it is I believe that the real cost of creating trails is more than double the income left available after insurance is paid. Thank goodness for sponsors,fundraisers and volunteers or you would have no trails.

[500ssman]

I hope you are not this board when there is snow. It's people like you who perpetuate the perception that there is not enough value in the current cost of a trail permit. (If you buy into this theory, and that is why you posted it?)

No there is not enough value for us folks that sled on a budget. Lower the price to something reasonable like $100.00 big ones and you'd sell passes like hotcakes. This is my opinion. I base it on my own economic circumstances.

I don't reside in Ontario anymore, just stating the way I see things from a different perspective.

[lastzrt]

I see. You wanted the 2013 800, but the budget only allowed for a 600.

[SlowTouringGuy]

No there is not enough value for us folks that sled on a budget. Lower the price to something reasonable like $100.00 big ones and you'd sell passes like hotcakes. This is my opinion. I base it on my own economic circumstances.

I don't reside in Ontario anymore, just stating the way I see things from a different perspective.

You could buy a Classic Permit for pretty close to that price.

[500ssman]

I see. You wanted the 2013 800, but the budget only allowed for a 600.

I see. You wanted the 2013 800, but the budget only allowed for a 600.

Yup and believe it or not and here's the shocker I make monthly payments in excess of 250.00 a month hence the need to formulate some kind of budget while supporting a family of four. See sometimes I gotta justify blowing $260 on nothing.

[sledjunk]

Interesting article considering the paper in question is in Thunder Bay, a community that you cannot even get around by sled!

Yes, it would be nice to reduce the costs of the permit, however, the organization runs at a deficit every year.

As WB said, the cost of insurance is huge!

[sleddinscott]

the cost needs to be lowered by goverment grants being added to the budget to bring more riders into ontario to ride and therefore creating a better economy for small communities

[Fred Quimby]

IMO..anybody buying a new sled for 14 or 15 K has no business complaining about a $260.00 permit. Don't cry that game.

Do something about the Americanized litigious society we live in where accident benefits have skyrocketed and false or inflated claims have driven rates through the roof!

[bobdbldr]

sled payments 12 x $250 $3000, fuel, insurance, gear, other $2000+, permit $210 total $5210 you say too much, but at $5110 we will have way more participants....I don't think it really makes a difference. What we really need is a regular winter...it will return JMO

[traillover]

The sooner Ontaio snowmobilers realize that the cost is realistic the better off we al will be. Ya, the weather is lousy and winter seems it doesn't want to cooperate but after you take into consideration all involved, it's not a bad deal. There has always been a question raised that "if there was an extended snow season, would you offer more $$$ at

the end of the season?." The answer is NO---.If you drive your car 5000kms less than last year will you ask your insurance provider for a partial refund? NO Don't bother comparing the neighbouring(|English spelling) States around part of Ontario. They are and have been supporting snowmobiling with tax $$$ for years--thus their permit is $50-70 or thereabouts. MAybe the Province will have to come to the Tourism table and support NOrthern communities by financially supporting the costs. And yes,,,,this Province has to become less of the litigious society where law suites are rampant!!!

If the OFSC comes up with a cheaper permit cost to the rider, what will suffer. Will people buy to help support clubs that need the $$$. or find other excuses NOT to buy one. Riders forget that if the permits weren't purchased, who would pay the costs of running a snowmobile club and providing a product.

[polarisracing1]

i share your feeling 500 ss dude...i dont blame anyone for my discontent over trail passes and the cost of sledding,ive just made a decision to give it up....there are so many if's and maybes when discussing sledding....if we get snow?maybe trails will open up?things are different for you n orthern guys that say suck it up and trailer...at least you guys get some snow...we get f-all for a few years now...and those that dont have money to burn trailerin all the way to hells half acre and back,are left waitin for snow....sold my sled,trailer..and i dont regret it.....i will miss sledding dearly,i will always love it.....time to move on.....when i called my insurance agent who i know well,he told me a ton of sledders have sold theyre gear and have cancelled thier policies....so the feeling is obviously shared.....I say if you love sledding and can afford all the costs associated with it as well as dishin out 260 or more for a pass for minimal time on the snow....than do it!!!!!you dont need to justify,unfortunatly thats not me!.....just my 2 cents....

[traillover]

Hey Polarisracing1---It's a tough decision to make. The prominent word we can all agree on that is the reason for the malcontent is "frustration". I hear it in your message and you dohave some valid points. One thing I worry about selling it all is that when

the "real" winters return, what will the cost of sled be then? The alternative is to hang on to the machines, save up the $$$ and

venuture up north or Quebec--seems these places are still great. YA,less sledding but it will be quality sledding. Food for thought

[Domino]

Maybe, just maybe we should think outside of the OFSC box.

If other provinces and states are able to offer a trail pass for a lessor amount, why can't we? Lets just put the value aside for a moment. WildBill have declared that insurance is a huge aprt of our overall costs. What can we do about insurance? Can a law be apssed that somehow restricts the ability to sue the OFSC, clubs and landowners?

Some costs are fixed and cannot be controlled, like fuel and maintenance for our groomers. Maybe increased government funding or community sponsorship. If we want to promote tourism, maybe we can offer lower cost permits for non-residents.

Now, lets see what we can come up with...

[mooseski]

pay the $200 or $250 or dont use the trails,,,, price in not going to go down,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this comes up all the time on theses forms and everyone puts in there 2cents,,,,,,,,,,,, but nothing will change....... its part off the sport..... find something eles to bitch about.

groomers, incerance , labour is not cheap.

[lastzrt]

If and when the current trail system were to collpase the first to yell help to the government for more government funding for tourism $ will be the hotel, resturaunt. fuel station, dealership owners. Even the insurance companies. It will be too late for any kind of timley fix. These are the bussinesses that need to be lobbying the government for changes, extra funding, liability laws etc.

Some of these bussiness owners already put alot back into the system and understand the issues. Many don't I feel, and still enjoy the income with little thought to what may happen if the trail system were to dissappear for any number of reasons.

The government itself reaps huge dollars in fuel and tourism taxes frrom the sport in relation to what they input back into it.

I know WildBill is very involved beyond his bussiness, but I still chuckle at his "... or you would have no trails."

WE would have no trails. And the bussinesses that rely on snowmo-tourism have alot more invested in the "WE" than most of the rest of " we" do.

[Fred Quimby]

There are large red and white signs that are required to be posted at the entrance to every trail...ever stop and read all the print? Yet..some years the OFSC still gets dragged to court by some moron(s) who thinks that he has a shot a big $$$ because of his stupidity on the trail and win or lose that case it costs the Federation a lot of money to defend. Since the enhanced risk management programs some 4 million dollars in savings has been realized..yet we still need funding from the Province and Feds to continue to do business. How do you stop stupidity? Herein is the price tag which continues to drive up our sports dollar face. Imagine the cost without risk management, trail patrol, STOP, volunteers, driver education??? Wow!!

So do you:

A lobby for legislation to be introduced to save harmless in its entirety the OFSC, member clubs, agents, Directors and members?

B lobby for changes to the insurance industry?

C Reduce the amount of trails, so that clubs do not have the same overhead to maintain? Since the sport in currently shrinking, closing some trails will save money in operations budgets. Eg: maintain touring loops but restrict local club trails?

D A combination of all?

Something has to change.

[Faceman]

If we had two feet of snow we would not be having this discussion but that is not the case. At the OFSC's present structure I 'm not sure where you could save other than insurance costs as has been mentioned. We are spoiled by interconnecting groomed trails that are established, brushed, staked, groomed and dismantled every year by thousands of volunteers who dedicate their time, equipment and fuel for a sport they love. I remember hearing somewhere that in this day and age a new groomer and drag has a value somewhere around $250,000 and a life expectancy of 10 years. The trails in every clubs network are groomed on a regular basis to assure prime conditions depending on traffic volume. Clubs realize that sledders like to ride and frequent areas with nicely groomed trails and tend to support those clubs and their sponsers as this is the area they ride. So, do we reduce grooming? It is one of the few things clubs have control over. Don't be surprised if the number of trails gets downscaled to reduce grooming costs. Once again, in its' present form, I believe clubs will have to option downscaling to reduce costs at the club level But not all clubs have this ability. Not sure where else at the club or District level we can go.

The trail system is a dated system which requires regular upgrading , ask BB in North Bay what a new bridge cost these days. Clubs lose trails yearly for various reasons, i.e.: logging, mining, crop change, property ownership, new roadwork, high water, low water etc. Every time a club moves a trail its cost large. The un-informed sledder has no idea what goes into the trail system, maybe cares , maybe doesn't but expects a smooth safe ride with directional and information signage at every intersection. All costs. Signs and stakes wear out, signs and stakes get stolen or damaged.

[Dave K]

Just curious, if some dumbo goes out on a trail without a permit, can he sue the OFSC when he flies through the bush to fast and has to be carried away from the tree with an ambulance?

[Faceman]

Yes. As was mention previous...we've gone the American way "it's not my fault", someone else has to be to blame for my mistakes.

[Nith Valley Sledder]

The OFSC was started by snowmobilers for snowmobilers to create a better riding experience for all. By banding together the provincial clubs have been able to provide the snowmobiler a great chance to ride all over the province. These trails are provided, for the most part, by volunteers that realize there are no trail fairies. If you want to ride then you need to build and maintain the trails. It is not the responsibility of these hard working people to support the provincial tourism industry. The tourism industry reaps the benefits and line their pockets on the backs of the work these people do. Snowmobilers have in some areas of the province given towns a fourth season of income. They in turn put nothing back into the system apart from the very few businesses that support the sport either through funding or labor or both. To drop the permit price so outsiders can come in and ride cheaper to support the tourism industry is a slap to those doing all of the work and still paying full price for their own permit. There is not enough money to go around now and the argument that if the permits were cheaper more people would buy them is crap. The permit is the cheapest part of the riding experience. The province needs to ante up a lot more money than they are currently giving us. Snowmobiling is a billion dollar industry in this province and we put a lot more into the government coffers than they return to us.