Throttle back on trail permit fees

[couchrocket500]

I still say a lot of it is the sledder’s own insurance company initiating the litigation against OFSC’s insurance company fault. Not unlike a ponzi scheme resulting in higher premiums for all involved. It should be legislated non profits have limited or no liabilities like they do in Quebec and some of the states in the US. “Use At Your Own Risk” should be ample protection from litigation not only for us but any landowner who chooses to allow anyone to cross their properties.

[polarisracing1]

Hey Polarisracing1---It's a tough decision to make. The prominent word we can all agree on that is the reason for the malcontent is "frustration". I hear it in your message and you dohave some valid points. One thing I worry about selling it all is that when

the "real" winters return, what will the cost of sled be then? The alternative is to hang on to the machines, save up the $$$ and

venuture up north or Quebec--seems these places are still great. YA,less sledding but it will be quality sledding. Food for thought

its not a hard decision to make...for me....and if and only if the good winters return,will i dive back in....sledding will always be a rich mans sport....if i cant afford it then...then the decision is easy.....do whatever works for you!there is no right or wrong.....

[Wildbill]

i share your feeling 500 ss dude...i dont blame anyone for my discontent over trail passes and the cost of sledding,ive just made a decision to give it up....there are so many if's and maybes when discussing sledding....if we get snow?maybe trails will open up?things are different for you n orthern guys that say suck it up and trailer...at least you guys get some snow...we get f-all for a few years now...and those that dont have money to burn trailerin all the way to hells half acre and back,are left waitin for snow....sold my sled,trailer..and i dont regret it.....i will miss sledding dearly,i will always love it.....time to move on.....when i called my insurance agent who i know well,he told me a ton of sledders have sold theyre gear and have cancelled thier policies....so the feeling is obviously shared.....I say if you love sledding and can afford all the costs associated with it as well as dishin out 260 or more for a pass for minimal time on the snow....than do it!!!!!you dont need to justify,unfortunatly thats not me!.....just my 2 cents....

Then why are you here

[500ssman]

Ok..... so I'm to assume that most on here agree that reducing permit prices will not generate more sales and that since the permit is "the cheapest part of the whole" snowmobiling experience" we can expect seasonal permits to increase as the only way to cover increasing cost of insurance , fuel costs etc. Since the Ontario economy isn't exactly booming and governments both provincial and federal are in the "age of austerity" I don't think you'll see much of a enthusiastic response from Queens Park or Ottawa for increased funding for the sport.

So how do you entice new folks into the sport with the current price of the permit?

[Spanky]

The OFSC was started by snowmobilers for snowmobilers to create a better riding experience for all. By banding together the provincial clubs have been able to provide the snowmobiler a great chance to ride all over the province. These trails are provided, for the most part, by volunteers that realize there are no trail fairies. If you want to ride then you need to build and maintain the trails. It is not the responsibility of these hard working people to support the provincial tourism industry. The tourism industry reaps the benefits and line their pockets on the backs of the work these people do. Snowmobilers have in some areas of the province given towns a fourth season of income. They in turn put nothing back into the system apart from the very few businesses that support the sport either through funding or labor or both. To drop the permit price so outsiders can come in and ride cheaper to support the tourism industry is a slap to those doing all of the work and still paying full price for their own permit. There is not enough money to go around now and the argument that if the permits were cheaper more people would buy them is crap. The permit is the cheapest part of the riding experience. The province needs to ante up a lot more money than they are currently giving us. Snowmobiling is a billion dollar industry in this province and we put a lot more into the government coffers than they return to us.

Very well said!

[wrightonalan]

Im thinking of selling too ,but the price of the permit has nothing to do with it .sled, insurance and gas is way more costly than the permit ! but the real problem is lack of snow and short season.i bought a dr400 last year and rode it for 11 months straight and counting.

[polarisracing1]

Then why are you here

Same reason your reading this...no snow!.......and boating season hasn,t started yet!

[FreezerBurnt]

No, we can't change the weather. But the value is still there only IF the trails are still there.

There is going to be snow somewhere, particularily on the northern trails referenced. The majority of the locals in the far north trails referenced, are not going to buy a permit at half the current price.

If every southern Ontario sledder that was going to plan to ride these trails only ONCE in a season bought their permit from one of these struggling clubs, they would have no problem meeting the minimum sales required to at least stay in the OFSC. The sales lost to the southern clubs would be a relative drop in the bucket.

You do realize NW Ont is a 20hr + drive from S.Ont and no one from there rides out there and is 6hrs from Wawa or Hearst

and AGAIN THERE IS NO TRAILS CONNECTING NW ONT TO THE REST, they do however connect to here in Manitoba

[FreezerBurnt]

If we had two feet of snow we would not be having this discussion but that is not the case. At the OFSC's present structure I 'm not sure where you could save other than insurance costs as has been mentioned. We are spoiled by interconnecting groomed trails that are established, brushed, staked, groomed and dismantled every year by thousands of volunteers who dedicate their time, equipment and fuel for a sport they love. I remember hearing somewhere that in this day and age a new groomer and drag has a value somewhere around $250,000 and a life expectancy of 10 years. The trails in every clubs network are groomed on a regular basis to assure prime conditions depending on traffic volume. Clubs realize that sledders like to ride and frequent areas with nicely groomed trails and tend to support those clubs and their sponsers as this is the area they ride. So, do we reduce grooming? It is one of the few things clubs have control over. Don't be surprised if the number of trails gets downscaled to reduce grooming costs. Once again, in its' present form, I believe clubs will have to option downscaling to reduce costs at the club level But not all clubs have this ability. Not sure where else at the club or District level we can go.

The trail system is a dated system which requires regular upgrading , ask BB in North Bay what a new bridge cost these days. Clubs lose trails yearly for various reasons, i.e.: logging, mining, crop change, property ownership, new roadwork, high water, low water etc. Every time a club moves a trail its cost large. The un-informed sledder has no idea what goes into the trail system, maybe cares , maybe doesn't but expects a smooth safe ride with directional and information signage at every intersection. All costs. Signs and stakes wear out, signs and stakes get stolen or damaged.

The OFSC was started by snowmobilers for snowmobilers to create a better riding experience for all. By banding together the provincial clubs have been able to provide the snowmobiler a great chance to ride all over the province. These trails are provided, for the most part, by volunteers that realize there are no trail fairies. If you want to ride then you need to build and maintain the trails. It is not the responsibility of these hard working people to support the provincial tourism industry. The tourism industry reaps the benefits and line their pockets on the backs of the work these people do. Snowmobilers have in some areas of the province given towns a fourth season of income. They in turn put nothing back into the system apart from the very few businesses that support the sport either through funding or labor or both. To drop the permit price so outsiders can come in and ride cheaper to support the tourism industry is a slap to those doing all of the work and still paying full price for their own permit. There is not enough money to go around now and the argument that if the permits were cheaper more people would buy them is crap. The permit is the cheapest part of the riding experience. The province needs to ante up a lot more money than they are currently giving us. Snowmobiling is a billion dollar industry in this province and we put a lot more into the government coffers than they return to us.

Both of you please read my response above

This article is written by clubs from NORTH WESTERN ONTARIO which do NOT connect with the rest of the OFSC system there is at least a 10hr gap if you are trail riding, so you can NOT use the 32000km argument

It might be time for them to leave the OFSC it is only a matter of time for them

remember this is not Sudbury,North Bay, Timmins nor Cochrane which do have interconnecting trails with S.Ont and riders driving up there to ride from S.Ont

This Family Free weekend should be a hit out here as we here border NW.Ont and have the greatest amount of sledders outside the GTA that can take advantage of this free weekend and pump $$$$ into the NW Ont economy

[mooseski]

Ok..... so I'm to assume that most on here agree that reducing permit prices will not generate more sales and that since the permit is "the cheapest part of the whole" snowmobiling experience" we can expect seasonal permits to increase as the only way to cover increasing cost of insurance , fuel costs etc. Since the Ontario economy isn't exactly booming and governments both provincial and federal are in the "age of austerity" I don't think you'll see much of a enthusiastic response from Queens Park or Ottawa for increased funding for the sport.

So how do you entice new folks into the sport with the current price of the permit?

permit price is the cheapist part of snowmobileing.

[Skis Up]

Having been a loyal permit buyer for over 20 years I will no longer buy a season pass, I will buy a 3 day or 1 week for Ontario,a Michigan season pass at $50 and a week pass for Quebec my cost around $300 for all 3 and get my 4 or 5 weeks of riding in. The OFSC is on a downward spiral clubs not wanting to groom so they make it thru the winter. And many other issues. I know 30 people getting out of the sport and selling at a huge loss look on kijiji 13000 sleds for sale. I will keep mine so I don't take the loss and buy my Ont permit when I see snow the same for the Que permit the Mi permit is cheap enough to just get.

[FreezerBurnt]

Maybe it's a S.Ont thing, but only half my riding was done on groomed trails the past 25yrs. Most times I am off trail exploring or playing in a meadow. Then again in Sudbury that was real easy to do.

I don't get why people quit sledding due to price of a permit, its cheap yet there are way more places to ride that are not groomed

This weekend I might of rode 8kms of groomed trails, yet put on 50-60 kms of the most fun I had on a sled in years off trail and on summer roads

[GSX]

I just have posted my sleds and trailer for sale, and it is a hard decision i love the sport but certainly more than 1 thing factored to my decision

No riding in D5 or D9 nothing better than a day trip

More than once we have planed a trip north and plans had to be changed to due weather conditions.

The trail pass i do not find expensive..I feel it is the combination of passes, insurance and general matience and depreciation that are the culprit

I feel it make more sence to plan a trip with sled rentals for us southern riders, if you have a cottage than there is a obvious advantage.

Mike

[Faceman]

Freezy...I fully understand the NWO position and agree. Not sure how clubs in NO have survived so long. For the most the locals really don't care about the OFSC and I get it. Most don't haul long miles touring as they probably don't have those funds in the budget. I just got through a pissing match with a gentleman from NO who stated that the OFSC was taking all of the prime trails on crown land and restricting access to his hunting and fishing. Even when I explained the agreement between the OFAH and the OFSC regarding unrestricted access for the above it got twisted. We keep seeing and hearing the business benefit to the Nord but honestly these businesses can't afford an out of pocket for clubs. Many are barely holding on as it is.

Solution. Nope don't have one. I understand the northern attitude.

[Turbo Doo]

Good thread guys. Alot of questions to answer here...

[Wildbill]

Same reason your reading this...no snow!.......and boating season hasn,t started yet!

Actually I read it because I really do love the sport. I read and participate 365 days a year. And if it snowed? You don't have a sled anyhow.

[FreezerBurnt]

Freezy...I fully understand the NWO position and agree. Not sure how clubs in NO have survived so long. For the most the locals really don't care about the OFSC and I get it. Most don't haul long miles touring as they probably don't have those funds in the budget. I just got through a pissing match with a gentleman from NO who stated that the OFSC was taking all of the prime trails on crown land and restricting access to his hunting and fishing. Even when I explained the agreement between the OFAH and the OFSC regarding unrestricted access for the above it got twisted. We keep seeing and hearing the business benefit to the Nord but honestly these businesses can't afford an out of pocket for clubs. Many are barely holding on as it is.

Solution. Nope don't have one. I understand the northern attitude.

I think NW Ont situation is slightly different vs say Wawa to T Bay N.Ont as regards to trails. NW can benefit from here as we are closer and many people own land/camp/cabins on near the border

hell people here whine about our $125 permit LOL

[Fred Quimby]

I can almost guarantee two things.

We wouldn't be having this discussion yet again in yet another form if there was snow or in fact not such a run of lousy Winters. Period.

I truly believe that there is a shift happening. Younger riders are coming into the sport, as older riders are leaving. The constants are shifting out. They are in search of something that is a better bang for your buck, be it ATV ing, boating or for some enduro bikes, or motorcycles for some still. I think there will be some lean years where clubs will face scaled back operations but that should be no surprise as we are on the edge of yet another recession. That alone has many scared and less likely to spend money on this sport. Myself included. I'm not investing in new sleds or gear for awhile. Not because I don't want to but it does not make financial sense to.

The better Winters will return as they have for hundreds of years. Look at the climatology records. The proof is there. Then the sleds will sell again, the demand for trails will slowly increase and the clubs that survive will recover. Like a lot of things now..things will look a lot different than they do now, I'm sure. I still think there is value in cooperative efforts with the ATV scene and it should not be overlooked. It doesn't mean both power sports need to be in bed together but maybe they should be shaking hands some more.

[FreezerBurnt]

I can almost guarantee two things.

We wouldn't be having this discussion yet again in yet another form if there was snow or in fact not such a run of lousy Winters. Period.

I truly believe that there is a shift happening. Younger riders are coming into the sport, as older riders are leaving. The constants are shifting out. They are in search of something that is a better bang for your buck, be it ATV ing, boating or for some enduro bikes, or motorcycles for some still. I think there will be some lean years where clubs will face scaled back operations but that should be no surprise as we are on the edge of yet another recession. That alone has many scared and less likely to spend money on this sport. Myself included. I'm not investing in new sleds or gear for awhile. Not because I don't want to but it does not make financial sense to.

The better Winters will return as they have for hundreds of years. Look at the climatology records. The proof is there. Then the sleds will sell again, the demand for trails will slowly increase and the clubs that survive will recover. Like a lot of things now..things will look a lot different than they do now, I'm sure. I still think there is value in cooperative efforts with the ATV scene and it should not be overlooked. It doesn't mean both power sports need to be in bed together but maybe they should be shaking hands some more.

the original topic discussed in this thread is in an area with snow right now and lots of it right now

[Fred Quimby]

the original topic discussed in this thread is in an area with snow right now and lots of it right now

Like everything else..the thread has morphed into the cost of the permit being "generalized" across the board. Not just North or North-Western Ontario. Half of those stating that they are selling would not be selling if this was the Winter that was supposed to be, nor would there be a sled for sale on every block in the GTA. Trailering every weekend that far north to ride off trail is not an option for most anymore. There simply is not all that much in the way of off trail riding in Central Ontario where you could effectively not purchase a pass. I get the Northern mindset..I doubt that will change. It also wasn't the OFSC that some believe "stole" trails from hunters or trappers either. That's another story.

[Mossy]

I can almost guarantee two things.

We wouldn't be having this discussion yet again in yet another form if there was snow or in fact not such a run of lousy Winters. Period.

I truly believe that there is a shift happening. Younger riders are coming into the sport, as older riders are leaving. The constants are shifting out. They are in search of something that is a better bang for your buck, be it ATV ing, boating or for some enduro bikes, or motorcycles for some still. I think there will be some lean years where clubs will face scaled back operations but that should be no surprise as we are on the edge of yet another recession. That alone has many scared and less likely to spend money on this sport. Myself included. I'm not investing in new sleds or gear for awhile. Not because I don't want to but it does not make financial sense to.

The better Winters will return as they have for hundreds of years. Look at the climatology records. The proof is there. Then the sleds will sell again, the demand for trails will slowly increase and the clubs that survive will recover. Like a lot of things now..things will look a lot different than they do now, I'm sure. I still think there is value in cooperative efforts with the ATV scene and it should not be overlooked. It doesn't mean both power sports need to be in bed together but maybe they should be shaking hands some more.

BINGO! And if we don't get snow, next year there won't be anything to talk about except what could have, should have been done! Hope I'm wrong! Here is to positive thoughts from now on for me!

[polarisracing1]

Actually I read it because I really do love the sport. I read and participate 365 days a year. And if it snowed? You don't have a sled anyhow.

i also shere your love of the sport,i too participate 365 days a year....and if it snowed,i still have an old piece of sh-t sled parked at the father in-laws ,that i started with many years ago...ready to rip around on a 100 acres of field,however haven,t been able to do that in 3 years!...dont mistake me for dissing the sport,its just i have decided to cut my losses and revisit,at a later date..if a real winter returns..plainly that is not happening ..all the best!

[lastzrt]

You do realize NW Ont is a 20hr + drive from S.Ont and no one from there rides out there and is 6hrs from Wawa or Hearst

and AGAIN THERE IS NO TRAILS CONNECTING NW ONT TO THE REST, they do however connect to here in Manitoba

Don't be a knob Freezey, although the article originated from the NW, you know that there are clubs closed and more in trouble in central northern Ontario. Those that are traveled to by sledders from southern Ontario and are not selling 50 permits locally because of economic reasons, lack of desire to ride or need OFSC trails, lack of volunteers. See Luc from Dub. Those are the trails that could benefit from sledders who want to travel there to buy their permits there. They seem to be the ones that still want to see interconnecting cross province trails. Certainly riders that have the time and money to travel to and ride these trails are not the sleeders that bitch about the price of permits. And those that believe that the weather is going to be then end of organized interconnected sled trails should realize that northern Ontario is going to be the only place left to do any kind of sledding for those left in the sport.

Again I think the bussinesses that bendfit from sledding in Ontario need to get proactive in lobbying for change and help BEFORE the system totally breaks up, because it will take years to rebuild a new system. That interim may spell the end of may of those bussinesses.

As for your geography lesson, thanks. I spent two winters in the 'Peg in the mid eighties. The guys I sledded with from Winnipeg rarley if ever sledded in Manitoba. Most had cottages in Ontario, and kept their sleds there. Check out Falcon lake N. of Dryden on the trails. A bunch of the friends I sledded with had fathers who worked for CN. They would get the early tip off on new road deveopment in the area and bought up lakefront accordingly. Great area and great sledding memories. Winnipeg, ah, not so much.

[dweese]

What's been missed here, is our permits are high because we have more trails you can ride (ok not right now but just follow me) 5 times what most other places have.

Ontario has the biggest system in the world, some 30,000+km of trails, and sure you can buy a permit in New York State and other places for $90 or so, but everywhere else's has less than 10,000km to look after.

Ontario is huge in size, if you want a provincial system your going to pay for it. This is most likely why the OFSC is looking at a regional permit system for those who want it.

[Dan-Senior]

Looking at the 12 regular sledders that I have consistantly ridden with over the years. Here are some demographic stats. (Most of us are in our 50's and 60's)

5 - still riding

2 - Lost interest - lack of snow

1 - moved to BC

1 - dead

1 - health problems

1 - financial problems

1 - divorced - and is on 2nd Honeymoon with new lady

----------------------------

1 New recruit (younger gentleman in his 30's)

The fellows who briefly mentioned Pass costs were the two that lost interest. In their mind, they were not getting value and it was not worth it to keep sled, trailer and buy a pass only to ride x amounts of unpredicatable-weathered weekends.