Sasquatch777 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Truth be told even the gov doesn't know how many sleds are registered in the province Strange they know how many cars and trucks are registered but not sleds! The OFSC posts numbers the web posts numbers for all provinces and all American states! Now where did they get those nu,mbers from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 it all comes down in my opinion to how much cash can you lay out and still take care of things at home....everyone can justify something if they truly want it....people have pools that they can only enjoy a few months a year, people have cottages that only use them in summer months....if your bank account allows it and you can afford to sled and all the costs that are associated with it even though there is no snow in your area then thats your choice....for some (myself) that drove older sleds due to $$$, $210 a year does not sound like alot but over the last 3 years in my area I would of laid out $630 for a pass that my local trails have been open a grand total of 8 hours in 3 years..luckly I haul the old gal up to the camp and bomb around there..the argument that the pass is the cheapest part of sledding does not apply to us who drive old sleds, do not trailer weeknds and already have all the clothing, etc....not sure if the pass went to $400 that people would still be saying relax, it still rthe cheapest part of the sport......I do think the price of the pass is resonable for someone who sleds regulary and personally if the pass was to be chopped in half it would not tempt me to get a newer sled.....once again $$$$$ dictates that for me.....guys and gals that can spend the cash to buy sleds, , trailer, gear, repairs, oil, gas, trailering,pass, lodging,trucks gas , beer, beer, beer etc, etc etc and can afford it then all the power to you , you lucky bastards..lol....Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Strange they know how many cars and trucks are registered but not sleds! The OFSC posts numbers the web posts numbers for all provinces and all American states! Now where did they get those nu,mbers from? Snowmobile Manufacturers Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 pick boating,no permit...just docking fees....but you can boat,whenever the hell you please.....just an option..thats all! Was that you on trail 206 near D123 today no trail permit on this either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Was that you on trail 206 near D123 today no trail permit on this either OMFG !!! TOO FUNNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Yes MTO can tell us how manu sled are rigistered, but that goes back to he begining of time !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Fly Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 After insurance, sticker, trail pass and routine maintenance I am in over $1000 per sled before our first ride. The Sequin trails are the best maintained in the system and for 3-4 good weekends it's well worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yes MTO can tell us how manu sled are rigistered, but that goes back to he begining of time !!! They can also tell you in the blink of an eye how many are registered at any single point in time. How many will expire on what day of what month and so much more. It's just a matter of a couple of key strokes unless they already have it as a canned report regularly generated which wouldn't surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 They can also tell you in the blink of an eye how many are registered at any single point in time. How many will expire on what day of what month and so much more. It's just a matter of a couple of key strokes unless they already have it as a canned report regularly generated which wouldn't surprise me. BUT alas they never do that key stroke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traillover Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Answer to Fred's thoughts about Trespassing on Crown land---------anywhere an OFSC trail runs through, including Crown land, charges can be laid. that is why the OFSC partnered with the MTO and the permit is a Provincial permit---not a real difference from a Val Tag. Also, that is one of the reasons the Minister has to approve the Trail permit prices (Increase or Decrease) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Answer to Fred's thoughts about Trespassing on Crown land---------anywhere an OFSC trail runs through, including Crown land, charges can be laid. that is why the OFSC partnered with the MTO and the permit is a Provincial permit---not a real difference from a Val Tag. Also, that is one of the reasons the Minister has to approve the Trail permit prices (Increase or Decrease) That is also wrong, the OFSC cannot have a prescribed trail on a road, even if it is just a summer road and is not plowed. We have some here in the STP that a truck could legally drive on if someone had the desire, and even though we groom it, there is nothing that can be done. Sometimes a logging company decides they will cut in an area and that ends the trail as they will plow it down to dirt, other times camp owners decide to access in the winter and will plow, otherwise you would think you are on a sled trail with nice grooming and signs. most crown land where a trail runs through the permit is enforcable, but like I said if in fact it is a road then no way to enforce the permit. Trail patrol needs to know exactly where they are, particularly in the North where many many trrails are on summer roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Answer to Fred's thoughts about Trespassing on Crown land---------anywhere an OFSC trail runs through, including Crown land, charges can be laid. that is why the OFSC partnered with the MTO and the permit is a Provincial permit---not a real difference from a Val Tag. Also, that is one of the reasons the Minister has to approve the Trail permit prices (Increase or Decrease) Sorry...it's not my thoughts..it's a fact. You can not lay a trespass charge on a crown land parcel of land just because an OFSC trail passes through it. The exception is where the OFSC does hold a LUP for a parcel of crown land.An example is Algonquin Park where there are numerous tracts of patented parcels of Crown Land..the OFSC does hold a LUP and acts as the agent. However, if there happens to be an OFSC bridge on that same crown land, you can lay trespass charges or trespass notice while on the bridge, as the OFSC owns the bridge, even if there is crown land surrounding the bridge.If I can figure out how to get the chart of where you can lay trespass charges off of my instructors DVD and post it here as proof I will. It's not something that is common knowledge. I will also say...although its crown land and you don't need a permit, you are still stealing from the club that groomed, brushed, and signed the trail you are riding. You should be buying a permit. Edited: here is the actual authority from the MNR. See 3.4.2 under transient activities Section 3.4.5 addresses situations where a land use permit is held on crown land and requires a fee, in our case as sledders, a permit. Under authority of the Crown. http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@crownland/documents/document/mnr_e000078.pdf Most of us simply follow the MSVA which really poorly addresses Crown Land under the above policy. Trail Patrol needs to know exactly where they are, what type of land they are on and if there is a LUP, they should have a copy with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Sorry...it's not my thoughts..it's a fact. You can not lay a trespass charge on a crown land parcel of land just because an OFSC trail passes through it. The exception is where the OFSC does hold a LUP for a parcel of crown land.An example is Algonquin Park where there are numerous tracts of patented parcels of Crown Land..the OFSC does hold a LUP and acts as the agent. However, if there happens to be an OFSC bridge on that same crown land, you can lay trespass charges or trespass notice while on the bridge, as the OFSC owns the bridge, even if there is crown land surrounding the bridge.If I can figure out how to get the chart of where you can lay trespass charges off of my instructors DVD and post it here as proof I will. It's not something that is common knowledge. I will also say...although its crown land and you don't need a permit, you are still stealing from the club that groomed, brushed, and signed the trail you are riding. You should be buying a permit. Edited: here is the actual authority from the MNR. See 3.4.2 under transient activities Section 3.4.5 addresses situations where a land use permit is held on crown land and requires a fee, in our case as sledders, a permit. Under authority of the Crown. http://www.mnr.gov.o...mnr_e000078.pdf Most of us simply follow the MSVA which really poorly addresses Crown Land under the above policy. Trail Patrol needs to know exactly where they are, what type of land they are on and if there is a LUP, they should have a copy with them. http://www.search.e-laws.gov.on.ca/en/isysquery/03cf34ed-3e55-4ac4-a132-9077db91a6ee/2/doc/?search=browseStatutes&context=#hit1 Motorized Snow Vehicles Act Loi sur les motoneiges ONTARIO REGULATION 185/01 TRAIL PERMITS Consolidation Period: From June 13, 2005 to the e-Laws currency date. Last amendment: O.Reg. 359/05. This Regulation is made in English only. Definitions 1. (1) For the purpose of section 2.1 of the Act and this Regulation, "prescribed trail" means a trail or part of a trail on which a [/url] is required by section 2.1 of the Act and that is operated or maintained by or on behalf of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, and includes such a trail or part of a trail that is on Crown land or other public land, but excludes any Crown land or other public land where the operation of motorized snow vehicles is prohibited by law. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 1 (1). (2) In this Regulation, "immediate family members" means a person's spouse, sibling, father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, son, daughter, grandson, granddaughter, son-in-law, daughter-in-law, father-in-law or mother-in-law; "spouse" has the same meaning as in Part III of the Family Law Act. O. Reg. 359/05, s. 1. Signs on prescribed trails 2. (1) Prescribed trails shall be identified by signs bearing the letters "OFSC" in letters not less than 4.5 centimetres high and the words "Prescribed Trail" in letters not less than 1 centimetre high that are posted, (a) not more than 5 kilometres from any point along every prescribed trail; and ( at every intersection of prescribed trails with any other trail, highway, railway crossing or other crossing. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 2 (1). (2) The signs shall be retro-reflective and not less than 20 centimetres by 10 centimetres. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 2 (2). (3) A trail or part of a trail is a prescribed trail whether or not the signs described in this section are posted. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 2 (3). Trail permits 3. (1) A person shall not be issued a unless the person completes the application in full and pays the fee established by the Minister. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (1). (2) A is valid until the 31st day of May after the date the permit is issued. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (2). (3) A shall be affixed to the motorized snow vehicle, (a) at the bottom edge of the centre of the windshield; or ( on top of and to the left of centre of the engine cowling as close as possible to the centre of the windshield, without obscuring or being obscured by the registration number required to be displayed on the vehicle. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (3). Exemptions 4. Subsections 2.1 (1) and (4) of the Act do not apply to a person belonging to a class of persons listed in Column 1 of the Table only in the circumstances set out opposite the class in Column 2 of the Table and only if the person carries with him or her while driving the motorized snow vehicle on the prescribed trail the documents listed opposite the class in Column 3 of the Table. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 4. TABLE Item Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 1. Police officers, emergency workers including ambulance and medical workers, search and rescue workers, firefighters as defined in subsection 1 (1) of the Fire Protection and Prevention Act, 1997, employees of the Ministry of Natural Resources or the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, employees of the federal Department of National Defence. While engaged in duties required by their employer. Identification issued by their employer. 2. Aboriginal peoples of Canada. While on treaty or traditional lands. None. 3. (a) Licensed bait harvesters and their designates. (a) While engaged in bait harvesting within the bait harvest area or while travelling directly to or from the bait harvest area to engage in bait harvesting, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the bait harvest area or is the only safe access route to the bait harvest area. (a) An original or a legible copy of a valid bait harvester licence. ( Licensed bait harvesters' helpers. ( While accompanying a licensed bait harvester or designate in the circumstances described in clause (a). ( None. 4. Licensed commercial fish harvesters and their designates. While engaged in commercial fishing activities within the commercial fishing area or while travelling directly to or from the commercial fishing area to engage in commercial fishing, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the commercial fishing area or is the only safe access route to the commercial fishing area. An original or a legible copy of a valid commercial fishing licence. 5. Tenants of Crown land and such tenants' immediate family members. While travelling directly to or from the Crown land, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the Crown land or is the only safe access route to the Crown land. A legible copy of a land use permit, licence of occupation or lease, issued under thePublic Lands Act or a regulation under that Act. 6. Forest workers, including the employees or agents of any forest or timber company. While engaged in forestry activities pursuant to a licence under theCrown Forest Sustainability Act, 1994 or a private land forest harvesting contract within the location of the forestry operation or while travelling directly to or from the location of the forestry operation, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the location of the forestry operation or is the only safe access route to the location of the forestry operation. A valid forest resource licence or a letter prepared within the previous 240 days by the forest or timber company on stationery bearing the company's letterhead, setting out, (i) the company name, address, phone number and the date on which the letter was prepared, (ii) the name, address and phone number for each contractor or agent working on the operation, (iii) the name of each employee working on operation for both the company and any contractor or agent, (iv) a description of the location of the operation, including the name of any municipality within which the operation is located, and (v) the signature, name, title, address and phone number of the person who prepared the letter. 7. Landowners, their tenants and the immediate family members of landowners and of their tenants. While travelling directly to or from the property owned by the landowner, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the property or is the only safe access route to the property. Proof of ownership of or title to the property that is a government form, deed, registry or other document of land transfer, or in the case of tenancy, a copy of the lease for the property if one exists or a letter from the landowner prepared within the previous 240 days identifying the property by its municipal description and address and identifying the owner and the tenant by name, address and phone number. 8. The immediate family members of the owners of land on which there is a prescribed trail and the guests of such landowners and of their immediate family members. While on the trail on the owned property. None. 9. (a) Licensed trappers. While engaged in trapping activities within the trapping area, or while travelling directly to or from the trapping area, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the trapping area or is the only safe access route to the trapping area. (a) An original valid trapper's licence and either a registered trapline map issued by the Ministry of Natural Resources or a description of the resident trapline area, including its municipal location, lot number and size. ( Licensed trappers' helpers. ( An original valid trapper's licence or a legible copy of it and either a registered trapline map issued by the Ministry of Natural Resources or a description of the resident trapline area, including its municipal location, lot number and size. 10. Workers for utility companies including telephone, cable, hydro-electric, gas or other pipeline companies or service providers, and their contractors. While engaged in activities pursuant to employment at the location of the installation, or when travelling directly to or from the location of the installation, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the location of the installation or is the only safe access route to the location of the installation. A copy of the contract or work order, if any, or a letter prepared within the previous 240 days from the utility company, on stationery bearing the company's letterhead, setting out, (i) the company name, address and phone number and the date on which the letter was prepared, (ii) the name, address and phone number of each contractor working on the project, (iii) the name and employee identification number, if any, for each employee working on the project for both the company and the contractor, (iv) the description of the location of the project, including the name of any municipality within which the project is located, and (v) the signature, name, title, address and phone number of the person who prepared the letter. 11. (a) Licensed prospectors and their helpers 18 years old or older. While staking or working claims within a claim area, or while travelling directly to or from a claim area, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the claim area or is the only safe access route to the claim area. While working for a mining or exploration company, a contractor or field service supplier, within a claim area, or while travelling directly to or from a claim area, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the claim area or is the only safe access route to the claim area. (a) An original valid prospectors licence or a legible copy of it and either, (i) mining claim tags, or (ii) a claim map or a legible copy of a claim map, showing the property or part of the property on which the trail is situate and a claim abstract or a legible copy of a claim abstract for the claim area. ( Licensed prospectors' helpers, under the age of 18, accompanying a licensed prospector. ( None. 12. Employees of a mining or exploration company, and the employees of any contractor, driller, claim staker, land surveyor or geotechnical surveyor that is engaged by such a company, or any field service supplier of any of these persons. Within the mining or exploration project area or while travelling directly to or from the project area, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the project area or is the only safe access route to the project area. A valid exemption form issued by the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines or a letter prepared within the previous 240 days on stationery bearing the mining or exploration company's letterhead, setting out, (i) the company name, address and phone number and the date on which the letter was prepared, (ii) the contractor name, address and phone number for each contractor working on the project, (iii) the name and employee identification number, if any, for each employee working on project for both the company and the contractor, (iv) the description of the location of the project, including the name of any municipality within which the project is located, and (v) the signature, name, title, address and phone number of the person who prepared the letter. 13. (a) Licensed anglers. While engaged in angling activities during open season, as defined in the Ontario Fishery Regulations made under the Fisheries Act(Canada), pursuant to a valid fishing or fishing/hunting outdoors card and a valid sport fishing validation tag, both issued under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, and while travelling on Crown or other public land directly to or from the area open for angling, within the meaning of theFisheries Act (Canada), if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the area open for angling or is the only safe access route to the area open for angling. (a) A valid fishing or fishing/hunting outdoors card and a valid sport fishing validation tag, both issued under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997. ( Anglers 65 years old or older or under 18 years old. ( A valid fishing or fishing/hunting outdoors card issued under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997 or, (i) a driver's licence, (ii) a motorized snow vehicle operator's licence, or (iii) a birth certificate. 14. Licensed hunters. While engaged in hunting activities and carrying hunting equipment on land other than the trail, during open season, as defined in the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act,1997, pursuant to a valid outdoors card and a valid licence to hunt, both issued under that Act, and while travelling on Crown or other public land directly to or from the hunting area and carrying hunting equipment, if the trail is the only access route from the closest road to the hunting area or is the only safe access route to the hunting area. A valid outdoors card and a valid licence to hunt, both issued under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997. O. Reg. 185/01, Table; O. Reg. 469/01, s. 1; O. Reg. 359/05, s. 2. 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Fred Quimby Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Yes.. Nutter I can read...I'm also aware that there is a contradiction between the MSVA and the intent of the document I posted from the MNR (Free Use Policy)...ever try to fine somebody for trespassing on crown land where a LUP does not exist?? It will get thrown out of court. The MSVA is vague in that it does not reference the entirety purpose of ALL the applications of Crown Land. It covers the "exemptions" not the spirit of "free use" for which the MNR document was created. The MNR "free use" document references the MSVA for a definition of a snowmobile as it references the "off road vehicle act" as well. That is also why you can not sell a permit trail-side to somebody on Crown Land! Where they will get you is: A How did you travel to the parcel of Crown Land? You would have needed a permit to travel private property or other Crown Land for which a LUP is on file B If you are on an OFSC bridge while on Crown Land **as an aside..don't rely on e-laws to heavily. They are often not the full act/law or are outdated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Yes.. Nutter I can read...I'm also aware that there is a contradiction between the MSVA and the intent of the document I posted from the MNR (Free Use Policy)...ever try to fine somebody for trespassing on crown land where a LUP does not exist?? It will get thrown out of court. The MSVA is vague in that it does not reference the entirety purpose of ALL the applications of Crown Land. It covers the "exemptions" not the spirit of "free use" for which the MNR document was created. The MNR "free use" document references the MSVA for a definition of a snowmobile as it references the "off road vehicle act" as well. That is also why you can not sell a permit trail-side to somebody on Crown Land! Where they will get you is: A How did you travel to the parcel of Crown Land? You would have needed a permit to travel private property or other Crown Land for which a LUP is on file B If you are on an OFSC bridge while on Crown Land **as an aside..don't rely on e-laws to heavily. They are often not the full act/law or are outdated. As quoted in the link you posted ... Trails • Trails which are open to public travel, not withstanding the provisions of the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act. Refer to section 3.4.2 & 3.4.5 for exceptions. 3.4.2 Transient Activities To facilitate transient visitation and travel on Ontario's public lands, subject to the exceptions contained in Section 3.4.5 of this policy. Subject to the exceptions contained in Section 3.4.5 of this policy, any person may freely travel about on public lands (including public lands under water) for transient activities such as hiking, boating, canoeing, cross country skiing, water skiing, swimming, the operation of off-road vehicles (e.g. snowmobiles and all terrain vehicles), bird watching, horse-back riding, nonregulated resource harvesting (e.g. berries, mushrooms, spruce boughs and other non-timber forest resources that are not regulated under the Crown Forest Sustainability Act) as well as hunting and fishing in accordance with the game and fish laws and applicable municipal bylaws and other legislation (e.g. Off Road Vehicles Act, Motorized Snow Vehicles Act). Car rallies and motorized off road vehicle events (i.e. 4X4 trucks, ATV’s) on Crown land access roads and/or trails require written authorization from the Area Supervisor. Authorization will normally be in the form of an agreement signed by both parties. Note: This agreement is considered a "disposition of rights to Crown resources" for which MNR is subject to the requirements of the Class EA for MNR Resource Stewardship and Facility Development (Class EA-RSFD). Refer to Section RA 2-14 of the Access Roads Manual and the Land Management Intranet Site for additional direction and generic agreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Okay.... Have a nice day...you fail to see what the free use act is about. Re quoting the MSVA is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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