Throttle back on trail permit fees

[Spanky]

Organized snowmobiling in the US is state-run, therefore state-funded. Here in the liberal nanny state of Ontario, yours to discover with 10,000 rules and regulations to protect us from ourselves, very little of the cost is paid by the provincial government. And none of the provincial "grant" money is allowed to be used for operations.

Where is the thread called "Throttle Back on Fuel Taxes", or "Throttle Back on Insurance Costs"? Instead the group that actually brings the groomed trails to y'all is attacked.

I just don't get it...

[500ssman]

Organized snowmobiling in the US is state-run, therefore state-funded. Here in the liberal nanny state of Ontario, yours to discover with 10,000 rules and regulations to protect us from ourselves, very little of the cost is paid by the provincial government. And none of the provincial "grant" money is allowed to be used for operations.

Where is the thread called "Throttle Back on Fuel Taxes", or "Throttle Back on Insurance Costs"? Instead the group that actually brings the groomed trails to y'all is attacked.

I just don't get it...

Well It's wasn't my intention of attacking anyone!! I simply implied thru the article whether decreasing the cost of permits would increase the sales of permits leading to more cash in the hands of clubs.

[sledjunk]

Look at it this way. Roughly half of the registered sleds have permits. The article suggests cutting the cost of the permit by more than half. Even if ALL the currently non permitted sleds had permits at the new price, there would be less revenue than we currently have.

With the increased ridership, grooming costs would have to rise, resulting in an even larger deficit.

At this point, my permit cost me less than $.32 per KM. That number will decrease after this weekend, and even more after every weekend that I ride.

[Spanky]

Well It's wasn't my intention of attacking anyone!!

I agree 500ssman, "attack" wasn't the best word, I know that wasn't your intention.

In my crystal ball, which I admit doesn't have all the answers, I would like to see the number of Districts reduced, the number of District Administrators/Managers therefore reduced, and the creation of Tourism Regions instead.

I would also like to see a true Provincial Permit, where the province is treated like one huge association. You sell a Provincial Permit, those funds are distributed on a $ per kilometer basis. There would be a separate allowance for the main office in these Tourism Regions.

In order for this to work, an new "us" attitude had to be adopted, instead of "I". I know this wouldn't happen overnight, if at all.

I agree that this is "pie in the sky thinking", and I don't have the answers to all the logistics to make this happen, but we have to get away from the discrepency that exists now between clubs bank accounts and funding.

I wonder if we had a structure like this, would the province be more willing to come to the table to help?

[winterules]

Ok..... so I'm to assume that most on here agree that reducing permit prices will not generate more sales and that since the permit is "the cheapest part of the whole" snowmobiling experience" we can expect seasonal permits to increase as the only way to cover increasing cost of insurance , fuel costs etc. Since the Ontario economy isn't exactly booming and governments both provincial and federal are in the "age of austerity" I don't think you'll see much of a enthusiastic response from Queens Park or Ottawa for increased funding for the sport.

So how do you entice new folks into the sport with the current price of the permit?

The cost of a permit is cheap , if the new folks can't afford a dam $260 bucks they can't afford this sport . A electric visor for a BRP Mod helmet is $260 dollars . I pay $150 for a atv permit ever year as well you got to pay the price if you want to ride .

[sledjunk]

I agree 500ssman, "attack" wasn't the best word, I know that wasn't your intention.

In my crystal ball, which I admit doesn't have all the answers, I would like to see the number of Districts reduced, the number of District Administrators/Managers therefore reduced, and the creation of Tourism Regions instead.

I would also like to see a true Provincial Permit, where the province is treated like one huge association. You sell a Provincial Permit, those funds are distributed on a $ per kilometer basis. There would be a separate allowance for the main office in these Tourism Regions.

In order for this to work, an new "us" attitude had to be adopted, instead of "I". I know this wouldn't happen overnight, if at all.

I agree that this is "pie in the sky thinking", and I don't have the answers to all the logistics to make this happen, but we have to get away from the discrepency that exists now between clubs bank accounts and funding.

I wonder if we had a structure like this, would the province be more willing to come to the table to help?

You may have some good ideas in there. There are a couple of things that need consideration, though.

First off, the province is already funding a deficit. How politically acceptable would it be for them to fund or extend the funding to OFSC.

While the permit is a Provincial Permit, I understand where you are coming from. The distribution of funds is very complicated and difficult to balance. Reducing the number of districts may reduce costs, but then each club may have to travel long(er) distances to attend district meetings. Having said that, why can't the meetings be held electronically (Skype or some other internet based meeting service).

You are right, we need to think outside the box. Sometimes that is difficult when the volunteers are so overworked that they have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees. We have some very active board members that barely know how to use email, let alone other e-services.

Complicated issue, to be sure.

[soupkids]

I agree 500ssman, "attack" wasn't the best word, I know that wasn't your intention.

In my crystal ball, which I admit doesn't have all the answers, I would like to see the number of Districts reduced, the number of District Administrators/Managers therefore reduced, and the creation of Tourism Regions instead.

I would also like to see a true Provincial Permit, where the province is treated like one huge association. You sell a Provincial Permit, those funds are distributed on a $ per kilometer basis. There would be a separate allowance for the main office in these Tourism Regions.

In order for this to work, an new "us" attitude had to be adopted, instead of "I". I know this wouldn't happen overnight, if at all.

I agree that this is "pie in the sky thinking", and I don't have the answers to all the logistics to make this happen, but we have to get away from the discrepency that exists now between clubs bank accounts and funding.

I wonder if we had a structure like this, would the province be more willing to come to the table to help?

This already exists and has for a number of years.

Get invloved in your local club and find out just how it works !!!.

Other factors

New groomer costs $200 k + Average life of a groomer 5 to 8 years

Fuel 128.9/l for desiel right now ($4.87 a us gallon) might get a little better price on non road tax stuff

Last year the OFSC had a fund strictly for groomer replacement, 1 milion, how many groomer does that buy, maybe 5

Out of 200+ clubs I would say there is 800-900 groomers, thats a lot to try and replace in a timly manor.

[500ssman]

The cost of a permit is cheap , if the new folks can't afford a dam $260 bucks they can't afford this sport . A electric visor for a BRP Mod helmet is $260 dollars . I pay $150 for a atv permit ever year as well you got to pay the price if you want to ride .

I spent 10 yrs in southern Ontario so that is where my mindset is at. With the economy and weather the way that it is alot more sledders are looking for the "most bang for their buck" If you look at sales of Ski doo's MXZ Sport and the Polaris Indy you'll find sales are going very well for those sleds. Now let's continue it with offering lower permit prices in order to spur ridership along.This would also be depend on as some have indicated reducing the taxes on fuel. SANS in Nova Scotia has already taking this step in asking the provincial government to eliminate the fuel tax on grooming operations. As it stands now IMO $210.00 or $260.00 is not a bargain when guys are only getting in a couple of days or a week or 2 of riding in the southern part of the province.

and no I don't have the answers either but having discussions like this is a start.

[Spanky]

Get invloved in your local club and find out just how it works !!!.

Careful there Soupkids, don't make assumptions when you don't know the person you are responding to

No, a provincial permit does not exist now, when you buy an OFSC trail permit you still have to designate a club. We have clubs in some areas with pretty good bank balances, and we have many clubs elsewhere with very little and struggling to get by, and some don't. In my opinion, we need to move away from this and to a true provincial permit/system.

While I think the current system works well, with declining permit sales it is not sustainable as is. I have NO issue with a $300 permit, but many would.

[teener]

The cost of a permit is cheap , if the new folks can't afford a dam $260 bucks they can't afford this sport . A electric visor for a BRP Mod helmet is $260 dollars . I pay $150 for a atv permit ever year as well you got to pay the price if you want to ride .

Well said. For fun, I checked the cost of ski season passes at Blue Mountain and the cheapest is $249 which gets you Monday - Thursday Day Access and Sunday - Thursday Night Access only. To get full access it will set you back $589 for youth/ $739 for adult.

$210/$260 for trail passes to is very reasonable, as far as I'm concerned.

[polarisracing1]

pick boating,no permit...just docking fees....but you can boat,whenever the hell you please.....just an option..thats all!

[Faceman]

pick boating,no permit...just docking fees....but you can boat,whenever the hell you please.....just an option..thats all!

And insurance and fuel and spring and fall startup/winterize. Dockage fees run $20-30 plus per foot per season at a lot of marinas, plus hydro and pumpout.Trailer? Winter storage. Got one of those (or three)

[soupkids]

Careful there Soupkids, don't make assumptions when you don't know the person you are responding to

No, a provincial permit does not exist now, when you buy an OFSC trail permit you still have to designate a club. We have clubs in some areas with pretty good bank balances, and we have many clubs elsewhere with very little and struggling to get by, and some don't. In my opinion, we need to move away from this and to a true provincial permit/system.

While I think the current system works well, with declining permit sales it is not sustainable as is. I have NO issue with a $300 permit, but many would.

I was just offer up a way to see the inside of the system, I was judging by the tone that he/she was not involved in any way.

Many, many, many like to offer up opinions/ideas with no idea how the system works.

I have been involved in the "system" for 25 yrs.

I've seen many things work and even more that don't

[Domino]

And insurance and fuel and spring and fall startup/winterize. Dockage fees run $20-30 plus per foot per season at a lot of marinas, plus hydro and pumpout.Trailer? Winter storage. Got one of those (or three)

Depending on where you boat, the costs vary. I can tell you from experience that Docking and Storage for a 30' Cruiser runs $4200 to $5500 per year.

If you are a ramp jockey, boating is affordable.

I was on the water (in a boat) starting in March last year up until the first week of December. Now that's a season. If only we could sled for half that time....

[Fred Quimby]

pick boating,no permit...just docking fees....but you can boat,whenever the hell you please.....just an option..thats all!

Anchors aweigh!

[Viperules700]

Next year is going to be even tougher to sell permits. Next year no Ontario permits for us. One week Quebec permit, a few forest permits and one free ride weekend in ontario.

[J Feces]

Don't wish to start any battles.... But I believe every licensed snow machine in the province should be issued a permit. Done thru MTO when you buy your plates. Clubs would have to give up some control of permit dollars, fund raising would still occur as is. This would create more revenue hopefully at lower cost. Sell out of province/state permits to non residents. Dollars would be distributed to areas that have snow and need dollars for grooming. This too has problems not perfect in any way but at least every licensed machine would then have a permit. Don't use the trail doesn't matter. You can if you wish. This model to me sounds like a truly provincial system.

This would solve problem of clubs in the south with new groomers and surplus cash in the bank while northern clubs have old equipment and no money.

This concept would not be easy to manage and I do know our provincial govt can screw up a peanut butter sandwich. No easy answers but my bet is change is coming. You either make change or someone makes it for you.

P S I have 3 machines with permit and don't see myself being without them no matter what happens.

[lastzrt]

Don't wish to start any battles.... But I believe every licensed snow machine in the province should be issued a permit. Done thru MTO when you buy your plates. Clubs would have to give up some control of permit dollars, fund raising would still occur as is. This would create more revenue hopefully at lower cost. Sell out of province/state permits to non residents. Dollars would be distributed to areas that have snow and need dollars for grooming. This too has problems not perfect in any way but at least every licensed machine would then have a permit. Don't use the trail doesn't matter. You can if you wish. This model to me sounds like a truly provincial system.

This would solve problem of clubs in the south with new groomers and surplus cash in the bank while northern clubs have old equipment and no money.

This concept would not be easy to manage and I do know our provincial govt can screw up a peanut butter sandwich. No easy answers but my bet is change is coming. You either make change or someone makes it for you.

P S I have 3 machines with permit and don't see myself being without them no matter what happens.

Devil's advocate only. ( I do think there is some merit in looking at combining the permits and val tags.)

The biggest stumbling block to this model is the many current exemptions in place now, Also many sleds in the north that are used practicaly versus recreationaly. Many don't realize that snow machine val tags are currently issued at no charge north of a boundry line in Ontario.

[Sasquatch777]

Don't be a knob Freezey, although the article originated from the NW, you know that there are clubs closed and more in trouble in central northern Ontario.

.

Really! As a sledder from NWO I have to say that you have no clue! If in trouble you mean already closed then there is no hope for us. Once closed there is little if any chance of coming back. NWO clubs are in trouble and don't get all preachy like some about its because there is no snow. We have a huge amount of snow this year and had lots last year as well. Hell we always have snow. Even the worst years I still managed a couple thousand miles.

We are on the verge of colapse just like the Distric 16 clubs. We have already taken three clubs and formed them into one just to keep them alive and trails open. Course they now have a 200 mile long club looked after by a very small handful of volunteers but they sell 50 permits. We have absorbed neighbor clubs and taken over their trails which taxes our volunteers to the breaking point. They had to much on their plate to begin with but to keep the trails open we did what we had to.

So worry about the ones that are closed and no more! We will soon be joining them then you can worry about us as well. Seems like the old saying about closing the barn door after the horse gets out applys here!

[Sasquatch777]

Don't wish to start any battles.... But I believe every licensed snow machine in the province should be issued a permit. Done thru MTO when you buy your plates. Clubs would have to give up some control of permit dollars, fund raising would still occur as is. This would create more revenue hopefully at lower cost. Sell out of province/state permits to non residents. Dollars would be distributed to areas that have snow and need dollars for grooming. This too has problems not perfect in any way but at least every licensed machine would then have a permit. Don't use the trail doesn't matter. You can if you wish. This model to me sounds like a truly provincial system.

This would solve problem of clubs in the south with new groomers and surplus cash in the bank while northern clubs have old equipment and no money.

This concept would not be easy to manage and I do know our provincial govt can screw up a peanut butter sandwich. No easy answers but my bet is change is coming. You either make change or someone makes it for you.

P S I have 3 machines with permit and don't see myself being without them no matter what happens.

Yep that is whats needed.! Would cut the cost of a permit in half.

[Sasquatch777]

Devil's advocate only. ( I do think there is some merit in looking at combining the permits and val tags.)

The biggest stumbling block to this model is the many current exemptions in place now, Also many sleds in the north that are used practicaly versus recreationaly. Many don't realize that snow machine val tags are currently issued at no charge north of a boundry line in Ontario.

That would have to change. In my case it would cost me more if Val tags where say 100 to 120 bucks as I have three sleds and only buy one permit.

[Sasquatch777]

And back to this cost of a permit being cheap thing. 130 bucks for insurance, already own a suit and helmet sled is paid for! Tank of fuel is 30 40 bucks. People in the north don't trailer! Why would you? Out the garage door and ride.

The permit in 60 to 80% of the sledders in the North is the most expensive part of sledding and they are not buying because of it. Membership down from 900 to just over a 100 in less then 10 years. Everytime the permit goes up the sales go down. Biggest bitch on the street is the price of a permit. If it wasn't for classic permits sales would be way worse. One thing that so many on here always forget is that for some its just a principle thing. People drew a line and when permits crossed that they rebeled. Now its my job to try and sell them a permit. Hey I used to buy two permits every year but now I only buy one. That 210 bucks I saved myself buys a lot of fuel.

But hey its the poor snow right. B.S. I have 18,000 miles on my 05 sled it has little to do with the snow.

[Spanky]

I was just offer up a way to see the inside of the system, I was judging by the tone that he/she was not involved in any way.

Many, many, many like to offer up opinions/ideas with no idea how the system works.

I have been involved in the "system" for 25 yrs.

I've seen many things work and even more that don't

I agree 100%, especially with your 2nd comment.

[J Feces]

That would have to change. In my case it would cost me more if Val tags where say 100 to 120 bucks as I have three sleds and only buy one permit.

Yes I was aware of the free tags north. Sasquatch has it right, that would have to change. As I said earlier either you make change or have change made for you. I agree always snow in the north. Problem is too many permit dollars staying in the south that has a poor chance of utilization. I live in the south and have trails crossing my farms, I support it but I don't see a bright future for the snow trails down here. I see lots of potential for development in the north. It's Friday time for some brown bottle therapy. Good luck with it all. As always this is just my opinion.

[lastzrt]

Really! As a sledder from NWO I have to say that you have no clue! If in trouble you mean already closed then there is no hope for us. Once closed there is little if any chance of coming back. NWO clubs are in trouble and don't get all preachy like some about its because there is no snow. We have a huge amount of snow this year and had lots last year as well. Hell we always have snow. Even the worst years I still managed a couple thousand miles.

We are on the verge of colapse just like the Distric 16 clubs. We have already taken three clubs and formed them into one just to keep them alive and trails open. Course they now have a 200 mile long club looked after by a very small handful of volunteers but they sell 50 permits. We have absorbed neighbor clubs and taken over their trails which taxes our volunteers to the breaking point. They had to much on their plate to begin with but to keep the trails open we did what we had to.

So worry about the ones that are closed and no more! We will soon be joining them then you can worry about us as well. Seems like the old saying about closing the barn door after the horse gets out applys here!

I think you misunderstood me. Probably due to my poor syntax. I am both sympathetic and concerned about ALL trails being in jeopardy and having to shut down in the north. The factors affecting your NWO clubs are very much the same as the clubs in D16 that have had to shut down. Obviously lack of snow is not a major contributing factor. I was only pointing out that the simple geographic that allows access for riders from SO to the Wawa area allows them to be able to help the clubs in that area. Buying where you plan to ride, if only once in a season, would help keep open these clubs. Unforunatley the same geographics(as the Freeze so astutley pointed out) do not allow riders from SO to easily travel the distance to expirience and fund the great trails in NWO. Doesn't mean I don't give a crap about the trails in your backyard becuase I will probably never ride them. The loss of clubs and interconnectivity between here and there are to me more chips in the crumbling wall. It obviously has added to the feelings of isolation in NWO from the "decision makers and powers that be" in the south.