Mooseman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 If you do happen to fight this (or any) ticket, first off, the cop that issued the ticket has to be present in court to give testimony. If he's not there, it's automatically quashed. Second, if s/he does show up, then you can cross examine as to the expertise of the officer regarding snowmobiles, training received, if he's a mechanic, how he assessed the exhaust as being loud (subjective or measured), etc. Now if this was following a blitz and if most of those that were ticketed show up in court to fight it, after a couple like that, this would get real old real fast with the judge. Sometimes it's not practical to fight a ticket because of distance to the issuing municipal court or time constraints but if you can, fight it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mooseman said: If you do happen to fight this (or any) ticket, first off, the cop that issued the ticket has to be present in court to give testimony. If he's not there, it's automatically quashed. Second, if s/he does show up, then you can cross examine as to the expertise of the officer regarding snowmobiles, training received, if he's a mechanic, how he assessed the exhaust as being loud (subjective or measured), etc. Now if this was following a blitz and if most of those that were ticketed show up in court to fight it, after a couple like that, this would get real old real fast with the judge. Sometimes it's not practical to fight a ticket because of distance to the issuing municipal court or time constraints but if you can, fight it. Distance and time are major reasons these tickets will just be paid. 110 bucks, no record on your DL so really, nobody in their right mind takes a day off work and drives 14 hours there and back and spend four hours at the court house, might have to miss two days of work or you will wish you did after that. I sure as crap would not fight it in that scenerio, but locally I would if I had a quiet after market exhaust. I have a sled that you could not buy the stock exhaust for any longer, am I to believe the law says I have part it out because the exhaust failed. That is ludicrous, and any judge would understand ht the law was not written in this manner and only the listed after market type set ups or gutting your exhaust is what is illegal. Police will simply charge any person with any after market because they think this is the law. They are wrong, but you have to go and fight. I do not know why people keep quoting the msva where it states you cannot modify any part that is required under the MVSA Canada. It has nothig to do with exhaust, but is for things like throttle cut off switches, kill switches, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 11 hours ago, crispy said: yeah well troublesome attitudes are the problem everywhere. We dont cure troublesome attitudes by beating them up so to speak. Vilent kids get worse when you give them the strap which is why we dont encourage corporal punishment anymore. Think about it, I know all sorts of dudes with no real life to speak of. No GF, No wife, No kids, great at work so have money and then go all extreme "screrw it all" on the weekends which they balance themselves out with. Its that or the other kind who are all dark and introverted and can end up offing themselves. These people dont need police hassles, they need an opportunity to grow and LEARN how to be better people. Soon as normies start giving them attention for loud cans they only get louder and when they get attention for whining about trail conditions they scream more often etc. The more we try and censor and coerce these people to behave as we wish they would the less likely they ever will because they will resent everyone and everything and this can make them very dangerous with drink/drug driving carelessness etc because they feel they have nothing left to lose and little to live for anyways and so on and so on. Educating people how to behave better takes leadership, understanding, AND INCLUSIVENESS along with heaps of patience. So many parents out there who are selfish dual workers and throw money at kids as if its love and on and on and on. Anyways I could write books on the subject but all I can say for certain is the few people Ive known who have offed themselves could have easily been saved with a lot less judgement and cop hassle flying their way. I managed to save one dude who tried three times to off himself just by giving him a job and providing a work space where there was no drug or booze enablers around. Sometimes its easy but whips and chains seldom if ever rehabilitate anyone. Yet another reason I am so against this increased police state BS Its totally dumb This is a snowmobile forum, not a life coaching site lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Forget sleds and bikes the biggest noise maker we have here is helicopters. ever since Peterborough airport took over from Buttonville, the helicopters that roar around the lake is deafening. add to that we get all the rescue copters from Trenton practicing out here as well. they make the Harleys sound like sewing machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtserider Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 And on a calm day the Jet fuel lingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 hours ago, zoso said: Distance and time are major reasons these tickets will just be paid. 110 bucks, no record on your DL so really, nobody in their right mind takes a day off work and drives 14 hours there and back and spend four hours at the court house, might have to miss two days of work or you will wish you did after that. I sure as crap would not fight it in that scenerio, but locally I would if I had a quiet after market exhaust. I have a sled that you could not buy the stock exhaust for any longer, am I to believe the law says I have part it out because the exhaust failed. That is ludicrous, and any judge would understand ht the law was not written in this manner and only the listed after market type set ups or gutting your exhaust is what is illegal. Police will simply charge any person with any after market because they think this is the law. They are wrong, but you have to go and fight. I do not know why people keep quoting the msva where it states you cannot modify any part that is required under the MVSA Canada. It has nothig to do with exhaust, but is for things like throttle cut off switches, kill switches, etc. You might want to check out the MVSA. It does indeed contain information regarding snowmobiles and their exhaust system although you might go cross eyed trying to understand the gobilty gook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: You might want to check out the MVSA. It does indeed contain information regarding snowmobiles and their exhaust system although you might go cross eyed trying to understand the gobilty gook. Can you post a link, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 hours ago, snowman said: This is a snowmobile forum, not a life coaching site lol. We ride snowmobiles for pleasure to improve our lives. How we regulate our trouble makers is very crucial to that end. We can support over reaching big red tape that makes the entire hobby no fun or we can take responsibility for those who need to be "leveled up" to use a younger term. The choices are ours and very much all connected to our overall pleasure in this hobby 15 hours ago, 02Sled said: Dream on. Your employer is not obligated to pay you while you go to court to fight a ticket. Nobody is violating your rights to due process. You can take the day without pay or if you want to be paid use a vacation day. Especially if the employee is someone who is regularly wanting days off to fight tickets. Same naysay attitude as always with anyone who doesnt believe what can be done can be done. Fact of the matter is this CAN be done. Did any of us ever think one court case would make it ilegal to mark low water places on Ontario lakes? Of course not, we all including me scoffed at that idea, but it happened. Same with this issue because its a right just like voting is to which an employer clearly cannot restrict your time so you cannot vote, same with court its a right and one could make a solid case of it imo. With racing, you never know how it will go until you line em up and let er rip. Also, I said "could be" not an absolute, only a maybe and it is very possible. 10 hours ago, Mooseman said: If you do happen to fight this (or any) ticket, first off, the cop that issued the ticket has to be present in court to give testimony. If he's not there, it's automatically quashed. Second, if s/he does show up, then you can cross examine as to the expertise of the officer regarding snowmobiles, training received, if he's a mechanic, how he assessed the exhaust as being loud (subjective or measured), etc. Now if this was following a blitz and if most of those that were ticketed show up in court to fight it, after a couple like that, this would get real old real fast with the judge. Sometimes it's not practical to fight a ticket because of distance to the issuing municipal court or time constraints but if you can, fight it. Agreed. While it seems some here do not see the advatanges of fighting every ticket I can assure you within a year if every single parking, traffic, or other small ticket related issue was taken to court? We would transform the legal system here immensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 hours ago, snowman said: This is a snowmobile forum, not a life coaching site lol. the ignore function works beautifully. until somebody quotes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, sledjunk said: Can you post a link, please? https://recherche-search.gc.ca/rGs/s_r?st=s&s5bm3ts21rch=x&num=10&langs=eng&cdn=canada&hq=&q=SNOWMOBILE+EXHAUST+SYSTEM+IDENTIFICATION&wb-srch-sub=&st1rt=40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 hours ago, gtserider said: And on a calm day the Jet fuel lingers. Dont even go there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: You might want to check out the MVSA. It does indeed contain information regarding snowmobiles and their exhaust system although you might go cross eyed trying to understand the gobilty gook. Understanding that gobilty gook is why lawyers go to school for so long to get that law degree. They CAN understand, it especially considering they also write it. 45 minutes ago, crispy said: 16 hours ago, 02Sled said: Dream on. Your employer is not obligated to pay you while you go to court to fight a ticket. Nobody is violating your rights to due process. You can take the day without pay or if you want to be paid use a vacation day. Especially if the employee is someone who is regularly wanting days off to fight tickets. Above I made a comment about time off work to fight a ticket where you said it was in violation of labour laws and your rights to due process to not give you the time off. Then you came back with this below ... Huh! Wow... gobilty goop for sure. All I said was if you want time off work to fight your ticket, do it at your own expense which means you're not getting paid by your employer for that time off. Either unpaid time off or use some of your vacation time. Your choice. 45 minutes ago, crispy said: We ride snowmobiles for pleasure to improve our lives. How we regulate our trouble makers is very crucial to that end. We can support over reaching big red tape that makes the entire hobby no fun or we can take responsibility for those who need to be "leveled up" to use a younger term. The choices are ours and very much all connected to our overall pleasure in this hobby Same naysay attitude as always with anyone who doesnt believe what can be done can be done. Fact of the matter is this CAN be done. Did any of us ever think one court case would make it ilegal to mark low water places on Ontario lakes? Of course not, we all including me scoffed at that idea, but it happened. Same with this issue because its a right just like voting is to which an employer clearly cannot restrict your time so you cannot vote, same with court its a right and one could make a solid case of it imo. With racing, you never know how it will go until you line em up and let er rip. Also, I said "could be" not an absolute, only a maybe and it is very possible. Agreed. While it seems some here do not see the advatanges of fighting every ticket I can assure you within a year if every single parking, traffic, or other small ticket related issue was taken to court? We would transform the legal system here immensely. Back on ignore time I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, 02Sled said: Understanding that gobilty gook is why lawyers go to school for so long to get that law degree. They CAN understand, it especially considering they also write it. That's not the 1st time I read something to that effect. Just look @ the way some laws & regulations are written so ambiguously. Job security for their friends in the legal world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Paid time? Reading a little deep into that perhaps. Not able to fire someone for tending court is more reasonable. I dont think theres a hope in hell ( unless perhaps the NDP gets in? ) that anyone will ever be able to force their employer to pay them to go to court to fight a ticket. Firing someone for taking time off work to go to court however that one has a door there and I see it more like this; If someone is a plague of ongoing tickets, they are probably a challenging individual on many levels and likely not star employee either so its doubtful they would be high in job security. Vacation day makes sense if possible but if not? As a doctors note serves justification for time off without penalty then so should a court case, or certainly could at least be argued very well as such. What I find yet again so interesting with this whole thread is this; it takes a community to raise a child. If your a leader in your community would you advocate calling the police on the kids who got a little over excited and too loud on the playground or would you try and educate them? Seems the snowmobiling community would rather sick the cops on their youngins. Good grief some of you make me worried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: You might want to check out the MVSA. It does indeed contain information regarding snowmobiles and their exhaust system although you might go cross eyed trying to understand the gobilty gook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 OMG, I found it. OK, so here is the bottom of this deep well so we can all fully understand what exactly the law here is. The MSVA refers to the MVSA, which in turn then refers to the SAFETY STANDARDS FOR SNOWMOBILE PRODUCT CERTIFICATION SSCC/11 SUPPLEMENT Which then states this SOUND EMISSION Current Requirements (1) The sound pressure level of the snowmobile shall not exceed 73 decibels on the “A” scale (73 dBA) at 15.2 m (50 ft) when traveling at 24 km/h (15 mph), and when tested in accordance with SAE Recommended Practice J1161, “Operational Sound Level Measurement Procedure for Snowmobiles” (APR 2004), except paragraph 7.7 thereof. (2) The sound pressure level of the snowmobile shall not exceed 78 decibels on the “A” scale (78 dBA) at 15.2 m (50 ft) when accelerating at wide open throttle, and when tested in accordance with SAE Recommended Practice J192, “Maximum Exterior Sound Level for Snowmobiles” MAR 2003 (model year 2012) or MAR 2011 (model year 2013 and up), except paragraph 6.7 thereof. To determine compliance with the current requirements, a value of 2 dB(A), to allow for variations in test sites, temperature gradients, wind velocity gradients, and test equipment, shall be subtracted from the highest average value recorded in accordance with paragraph 6.4 in the case of SAE J1161, and paragraph 5.2.2 in the case of SAE J192. This means that if a cop did not perform a db test according to the methods described, they have no case to fine anyone unless they have one of the exhaust systems described in the MSVA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 78 db at WOT from fifty feet is the law, +or-2 db due to variances in conditions. Simple eh? And nobody thought we had a db restriction, turns out we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, zoso said: 78 db at WOT from fifty feet is the law, +or-2 db due to variances in conditions. Simple eh? And nobody thought we had a db restriction, turns out we do. I think you better put your glasses on again cause you missed a part: 14.Identification of Snowmobile Exhaust Systems a. General Requirement The snowmobile will have certification markings on the exhaust silencer in a spot that is visible and is resistant to alteration. b. Rationale Snowmobiles are built to specifications for sound emissions by the manufacturers. If a snowmobile exhaust system is modified after purchase with different parts other than those originally installed, those parts should meet the same specifications so that a snowmobile is still in compliance with SSCC standards for sound. c. Current Requirement (1) SSCC-63 Identification of Snowmobile Exhaust Systems (Nov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: I think you better put your glasses on again cause you missed a part: 14.Identification of Snowmobile Exhaust Systems a. General Requirement The snowmobile will have certification markings on the exhaust silencer in a spot that is visible and is resistant to alteration. b. Rationale Snowmobiles are built to specifications for sound emissions by the manufacturers. If a snowmobile exhaust system is modified after purchase with different parts other than those originally installed, those parts should meet the same specifications so that a snowmobile is still in compliance with SSCC standards for sound. c. Current Requirement (1) SSCC-63 Identification of Snowmobile Exhaust Systems (Nov That mark is NOT exclusive to OEM, any after market manu of mufflers can have that mark on the exhaust. not sure which ones do or do not, but yes you can use after market exhaust that meets the standard in the application in which it is utilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, zoso said: That mark is NOT exclusive to OEM, any after market manu of mufflers can have that mark on the exhaust. not sure which ones do or do not, but yes you can use after market exhaust that meets the standard in the application in which it is utilized. As long as it has a certification marking on it and to get that it would be required to meet the DBA requirements to be able to use that certification. marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: As long as it has a certification marking on it. I think we have solved the question, it can be aftermarket, but must have an SAE stamp on it and cannot be above the sound requirements. I strongly suspect most if not all of these aftermarket exhaust have not obtained an SAE certification, and thhereby are illegal without the db test. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I am happy I ride a nice quiet sled, so much so, pedestrians on multi use trails do not seem to even hear me approaching until I am right on top of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Voyant Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Checkout the "Timmins Proud" FB page. Great video of the sounds of area "wildlife". (I'd post the video here if I knew how). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Claire Voyant said: Checkout the "Timmins Proud" FB page. Great video of the sounds of area "wildlife". (I'd post the video here if I knew how). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 the comments on that video show the ignorance of today's youth. Self centered entitled little bitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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