Change of the Tide?

[AdamGamble]

Another pot stirring article by the boys at snowTrax.  I posted a thread with this sort of question last year. I know there are a lot of heavily invlolved club memebers and organizers on this site. Maybe we can come up with something. 

 

http://www.supertraxmag.com/article.asp?nid=3337&fb_action_ids=10159531294200300&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=[1474076719306984]&action_type_map=["og.comments"]&action_ref_map=[]

[Viperules700]

just need 10 feet of snow to stop this off trail riding.  bring on lake affect after the cold. I remember years ago when I was a teenager if you went off the beaten path you would get stuck. Some days riding trails would be an adventure with big drifts and fresh powder. I can remember Mitchell getting 3 foot of snow in a weekend in mid December. Use to ride on my Xmas break out of my grand parents house. Most days we could ride right on the roads too, while cars would get stuck. 

[02Sled]

18 minutes ago, AdamGamble said:

Another pot stirring article by the boys at snowTrax.  I posted a thread with this sort of question last year. I know there are a lot of heavily invlolved club memebers and organizers on this site. Maybe we can come up with something. 

 

http://www.supertraxmag.com/article.asp?nid=3337&fb_action_ids=10159531294200300&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=[1474076719306984]&action_type_map=["og.comments"]&action_ref_map=[]

 

He just won't give up on the off trail riding scenario as being the way to attract young riders and to adapt and change the way we think about snowmobiling. Is he really that delusional. We have ongoing challenges every year maintaining access to the private property trails we enjoy every year. One of the big problems is people not staying on the trail the GENEROUS land owner has allowed us access to. Now it seems this clown wants us to go to the land owner, perhaps a farmer and ask will you allow snowmobilers to ride wherever they want on your perhaps 100 acre crop field. I can only imagine how long it would take the person to stop laughing. Add to that they don't have any interest on riding on a field that has already been run all over. They want fresh unpacked snow to play in. If you're in the mountains it's likely achievable but when you are in an area where almost all the trails are on private property thanks to the generosity of private land owners it's not really feasible.

[02Sled]

16 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

just need 10 feet of snow to stop this off trail riding.  bring on lake affect after the cold. I remember years ago when I was a teenager if you went off the beaten path you would get stuck. Some days riding trails would be an adventure with big drifts and fresh powder. I can remember Mitchell getting 3 foot of snow in a weekend in mid December. Use to ride on my Xmas break out of my grand parents house. Most days we could ride right on the roads too, while cars would get stuck. 

And stuck you will be for sure. A number of years ago my wife and I were riding a groomed trail that runs through a provincial park and follows the roadways through the park. I went to answer the call of nature. When I returned a few minutes later she had thought it would be nice to pull into our old campsite we used to go to instead of sitting in the middle of the trail. Her sled was buried and she was only about the length of the sled off the trail. We were working at trying to get the sled unburied and out but getting nowhere fast. Standing in the snow we buried our selves crotch deep so we didn't have much lift available. Thankfully a group of about 12 sleds came along and offered help. With that many people we were able to just pick it up and carry it out.  

[AdamGamble]

I feel like Hali Forest would be the absolute perfect place for off trail. Tons on land, lots of snow, they've logged out a ton of space great hills. 

[Viperules700]

15 minutes ago, AdamGamble said:

I feel like Hali Forest would be the absolute perfect place for off trail. Tons on land, lots of snow, they've logged out a ton of space great hills. 

You can go any where you want in there, if you pay 60 dollar entry fee.  There are some nice bowls to play in. Have to be careful since some drop offs have granite rocks that will destroy a sleds under carriage in a hurry. I seen a few people come out of there with bent up sleds. The single track trails are fun on a slow day.

[AceRacer]

This is exactly indicative of the "entitlement" generation, the signs on snowmobile trails don't apply to them. "I buy an off trail snowmobile, so I'm gonna ride it off trail." 

 

You want to ride deep snow, off trail?  Move to BC. Lots of crown land there you can ride on.

 

Freeriding=freeloading.

 

(and no, I'm not some grumpy "old" fart,  I'm a very successful 48 year old who realizes that with age comes greater wisdom and respect for others.)

[AdamGamble]

35 minutes ago, AceRacer said:

This is exactly indicative of the "entitlement" generation, the signs on snowmobile trails don't apply to them. "I buy an off trail snowmobile, so I'm gonna ride it off trail." 

 

You want to ride deep snow, off trail?  Move to BC. Lots of crown land there you can ride on.

 

Freeriding=freeloading.

 

(and no, I'm not some grumpy "old" fart,  I'm a very successful 48 year old who realizes that with age comes greater wisdom and respect for others.)

To "freeride" you still need the trail system to get to spots where it's acceptable... like Quebec and what Wawa is doing. This idea is more geared toward northern Ontario where population density is less and farm land is not as common.

[gibson]

Free riding in a field with 2 ft of base is not the same as free riding in a meadow with 15ft or more base. Ripping off a lug from track trying to bank the sled over like in the videos.  Or peeling lugs off on a hidden rock are a reality when free riding in Ontario. 

Great if you get your sleds for free. But to the average Joe... An expensive day of riding. We have enough problems with trails and this will only accelerate the closures.

A good reason why I don't read Supertrax..... Way too much BS and every picture shows sleds flying and crossed up. Obviously all this at the posted 50 Km limit

[matt17]

32 minutes ago, AceRacer said:

This is exactly indicative of the "entitlement" generation, the signs on snowmobile trails don't apply to them. "I buy an off trail snowmobile, so I'm gonna ride it off trail." 

 

You want to ride deep snow, off trail?  Move to BC. Lots of crown land there you can ride on.

 

Freeriding=freeloading.

 

(and no, I'm not some grumpy "old" fart,  I'm a very successful 48 year old who realizes that with age comes greater wisdom and respect for others.)

This comes up almost every year and posts like this continue to frustrate me.  It is important to keep in mind that the O in OFSC stands for Ontario which is a  big place.  Things are very different in different parts of the province.  To write off and disparage an entire group of riders doesn't seem like a great idea.  Are there idiots who ride where they should not and ride disrespectfully sure but to say that freeriders=bad,  trail riders = good is false.  There are lots of idiots who ride too fast, or otherwise disrespectfully.  In the south-central Ontario area is free riding possible, probably not but as you get further north (Wawa area, Abitibi Canyon) there are lots of legal options.  Education on this is probably key.  

 

Myself I own a Summit, am 32 and wear a snow cross style helmet.  Probably fit the basic description of "free rider" based on your post am a "freeloader".  

 

Using last year as an example I bought my permit and put about 1500km on the machine total, riding on trail and off trail both for play and fishing.  If I broke it down by kilometre I probably spent more time on actual trails in a groomer than I did enjoying my machine.  This included about 40 hours split between Dec 23, 24 and 25 breaking trail on our section of the A Trail north of town so that it could be opened for touring riders around New Years.  Still think I am a Freeloader?  

 

Personally I think I am the type of person the Lesters are talking about.  I enjoy snowmobiling, there are lots of branches under that definition.  Trail riding is one branch this and while I enjoy it there are other forms I like more.  I think trails and trail building/maintenance are important and I enjoy participating in that almost as much as trail riding.  If I had my choice though I prefer riding off trail.  I guess based on this some people think I should either not ride or move to BC.  Well moving is out so I guess I should just say F*** it and quit riding in Ontario, I am sure my wife will appreciate me having several hundred hours where I am not out in the groomer, signing trails, working on the groomers.  And if that means that the A trail linking Dubriuville to Hearst cannot open on time or is in rough shape so be it.  

[02Sled]

5 minutes ago, matt17 said:

This comes up almost every year and posts like this continue to frustrate me.  It is important to keep in mind that the O in OFSC stands for Ontario which is a  big place.  Things are very different in different parts of the province.  To write off and disparage an entire group of riders doesn't seem like a great idea.  Are there idiots who ride where they should not and ride disrespectfully sure but to say that freeriders=bad,  trail riders = good is false.  There are lots of idiots who ride too fast, or otherwise disrespectfully.  In the south-central Ontario area is free riding possible, probably not but as you get further north (Wawa area, Abitibi Canyon) there are lots of legal options.  Education on this is probably key.  

 

Myself I own a Summit, am 32 and wear a snow cross style helmet.  Probably fit the basic description of "free rider" based on your post am a "freeloader".  

 

Using last year as an example I bought my permit and put about 1500km on the machine total, riding on trail and off trail both for play and fishing.  If I broke it down by kilometre I probably spent more time on actual trails in a groomer than I did enjoying my machine.  This included about 40 hours split between Dec 23, 24 and 25 breaking trail on our section of the A Trail north of town so that it could be opened for touring riders around New Years.  Still think I am a Freeloader?  

 

Personally I think I am the type of person the Lesters are talking about.  I enjoy snowmobiling, there are lots of branches under that definition.  Trail riding is one branch this and while I enjoy it there are other forms I like more.  I think trails and trail building/maintenance are important and I enjoy participating in that almost as much as trail riding.  If I had my choice though I prefer riding off trail.  I guess based on this some people think I should either not ride or move to BC.  Well moving is out so I guess I should just say F*** it and quit riding in Ontario, I am sure my wife will appreciate me having several hundred hours where I am not out in the groomer, signing trails, working on the groomers.  And if that means that the A trail linking Dubriuville to Hearst cannot open on time or is in rough shape so be it.  

You made the point

 

In the south-central Ontario area is free riding possible, probably not but as you get further north (Wawa area, Abitibi Canyon) there are lots of legal options.  Education on this is probably key.

 

And therein lies the problem. The vast majority of trail permits are sold in South and Central Ontario where almost all trails involve private property, municipal roadside or township properties where we need a land use permit and continually face challenges with land owners when those entitled individuals ignore the Stay on Trail or Permission Revoked and ride where they want to.

 

Those signs aren't everywhere. They are primarily where there have historically been people riding off trail and creating unhappy land owners. The signs are an effort to persuade people to stay on trail and to satisfy the land owners in the clubs efforts to dissuade people from going off trail. Yet you see the tracks regardless. How much education is required beyond those signs. The real education comes when the land owner says enough is enough and says get off my property. Then you get the same riders that caused the trail loss to ignore the Trail Closed signs. Then people wonder why too often snowmobilers get a bad reputation.

 

Going off trail where you can do it without trespassing... go for it. But like you said that is further north. Unfortunately there are far too many that are simply unwilling to make the drive for a weekend of riding. Toronto to Wawa is about a 10.5 hour drive. If you work Mon to Fri that just isn't an option. So where do they go instead South and Central Ontario, ignoring the private property and saying damn everyone else, I'll ride where I want to ride and how I want to ride. A place for everything but not everything everywhere.

 

[Blake G]

Matt you are an exceptional contributor to our trail system, and nobody would knowingly lump you in with the trouble-makers who disrespect the landowners and club volunteers of southern ontario by free-riding on private property. Ontari-ari-ario is a big place, big enough for many different types of fun and respectful riding.

[slomo]

11 minutes ago, Blake G said:

Matt you are an exceptional contributor to our trail system, and nobody would knowingly lump you in with the trouble-makers who disrespect the landowners and club volunteers of southern ontario by free-riding on private property. Ontari-ari-ario is a big place, big enough for many different types of fun and respectful riding.

I agree with Blake.

 

However, would also like to add that there are tons of teaching jobs in B.C. right now - they can't find enough people and some districts are even paying moving expenses!

 

http://www.makeafuture.ca/

 

 

 

[02Sled]

21 minutes ago, Blake G said:

Matt you are an exceptional contributor to our trail system, and nobody would knowingly lump you in with the trouble-makers who disrespect the landowners and club volunteers of southern ontario by free-riding on private property. Ontari-ari-ario is a big place, big enough for many different types of fun and respectful riding.

X2 - nobody would accuse you of being a trouble maker

[matt17]

Thanks for the kind words.

 

 I just wanted to point out what happens when you group people (in a negative manner) based on what, how or where they ride, provided it is legal.  I don't know all the challenges with running a trail system and dealing with landowners and large populations, but writing off a percentage of snowmobilers probably isn't great for long term success.  Some people will be idiots and be hard to reach, but disparaging them will certainly not cause them to change their ways.  If they can become involved, included and see what it takes it is possible they may learn to respect the trail system.  We have had several cases of that locally people who ride mostly off trail, didn't buy permits and were adversarial with the club.  Some things changed, out reach was made and they now buy permits and help out signing, breaking trail and running the groomer.  

 

I don't pretend to know what the answers are, but, with all the challenges we face as snowmobilers, trying to find ways to work together, high milage touring riders, local riders, off trail riders (again where legal), Sunday afternoon riders, will increase the odds of success for all long term.  

[sledjunk]

This is almost verbatim the speech that the Lester 'boys' (Mark's sons) gave as MC's at the AGM.  They were quick to point out that they were absolutely not endorsing trespassing.

 

I do not disagree that we need the younger blood in the clubs, and that many of them will use the trails to get to their places to ride.  However, as many have said, the problem is the trespassing that is occurring and closing trails.

 

While the O in OFSC is certainly for Ontario, the OFSC is a Federation of Snowmobile Clubs.  Those clubs are tasked with building and grooming the 30+ thousand kilometers of trails in Ontario.  A large part of the cost of those trails is liability insurance for the litigious few who injure themselves and then sue the organizations and volunteers for their own misadventures.

 

Now, while the volunteers and clubs are stretched to the limit, the suggestion is to build trails to areas where riders can go off trail and possibly injure or kill themselves because of the unknowns under the snow or a miscalculation on the part of the rider.  However, once this happens, the rider or his family will then look to the OFSC through the courts to be made whole because we did not protect the rider from himself.

 

If a rider finds a great meadow or field, and is sure that it is either crown land or a permitted area, then have at it.  But, if you get into trouble, don't come looking to the OFSC  to make you whole.  The OFSC is a trail riding / building organization.  If you want a freeriding organization, form one.  And go through all the growing pains and expenses that entails.

 

 

[gobills]

Awesome post!!! Well said sj!!!

[AdamGamble]

41 minutes ago, sledjunk said:

If you want a freeriding organization, form one.  And go through all the growing pains and expenses that entails.

 

If such an organization were to start, it would have to exist with the OFSCs support I would assume. 

[sledjunk]

Why would the OFSC need to be involved at all?  The expression I heard as a kid, "Does Eaton's tell Simpson's what they are doing?" 

 

I know that is dating me.  For the 'kids' on here (irREVerent probably heard this from his grandfather ) , Eatons and Simpsons, (T. Eaton and Company, and Robert Simpson Company) were large Canadian retailers and competitors.  Not unlike Macy's and Gamble's in the US.  Oh. Here we go again. 

[02Sled]

17 minutes ago, AdamGamble said:

If such an organization were to start, it would have to exist with the OFSCs support I would assume. 

Why

[gobills]

5 hours ago, AdamGamble said:

 Maybe we can come up with something. 

 

Sorry but what is it that you think anyone on here could come up with??   You posted about this before to me it seems as though you want this type of riding if so take the bull by the horns and run with it.  Pitch your idea to the forest and see where it goes.  There is not enough snow period in the area!!!

 

 For me off trail has its place out west and way up north away from trails.  People in Ontario want to have this free ride persona like people have out west where the snow is 25 feet deep all winter.  There may be a few places in Ontario that can offer this but anywhere south of North Bay IMO really has no place for this free riding.  There may be the odd place for people, but we do not get anywhere near enough snow to maintain this type of riding.  Once its packed down, we may not see ample snow to cover it back up for weeks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[revrnd]

E107 uses a portion of a hydro cut on private property north of Apsley. The groomed trail is on 1 side of the easement but there is always tracks off trail beside the trail. Where the trail turns off the easement, the tracks continue out of view. 

 

I wish the landowner hadn't requested the club to move the trail onto the hydro cut as the previous route thru the woods didn't allow for off trail riding unless you wanted to hit a tree. 

[Nunz]

I love riding off trail riding from time to time, the breaking of powder and playing in the deep snow is quite exhilarating, we are in midst of planning a trip to BC for Spring of 2019 so we can knock that off my bucket list of places and things I wanted to do.

I do not expect the OFSC or any organization to have anything to do with the off trail riders, there is a place for it namely the north or even in Quebec where there is lots of crown land to do that. I think the Wawa area has done a great job of promoting it and good for them and their tourism marketing.  We found even in the Mont Valin area a couple of years ago there was a good mix of the guys that were riding the off trail areas and the one ones that mostly wanted to ride on the trails.

 

I think the sport has enough issues as it is without having to create more work to cater to this select group especially in Ontario.

[stoney]

There are already places that you can do this, just need to find the folks that know the special spots that you can ride without causing riffs.....but those that know, will not want to share, more knowledge means less virgin snow and for the most part and most years as of late, Ontario does not receive enough snow for good off trail riding.

With what snow we typically receive, imagine if it was turned into an organized system with increased traffic, it would not be very good as you need lots snow on a continuous basis, so adding more attention to this activity that few enjoy now, is just going to make these areas worse and might drive people into areas that they should not be even more than they are now!

Even some of the actual on trail riding has been tough in recent years with the lack of snow and terrain Ontario deals with.

You truely want off trail, start up an organized group event here that takes larger groups of people out west that might help bring the prices down.

[04nightfire]

54 minutes ago, Nunz said:

I love riding off trail riding from time to time, the breaking of powder and playing in the deep snow is quite exhilarating, we are in midst of planning a trip to BC for Spring of 2019 so we can knock that off my bucket list of places and things I wanted to do.

I do not expect the OFSC or any organization to have anything to do with the off trail riders, there is a place for it namely the north or even in Quebec where there is lots of crown land to do that. I think the Wawa area has done a great job of promoting it and good for them and their tourism marketing.  We found even in the Mont Valin area a couple of years ago there was a good mix of the guys that were riding the off trail areas and the one ones that mostly wanted to ride on the trails.

 

I think the sport has enough issues as it is without having to create more work to cater to this select group especially in Ontario.

Revy?  I did it a few years ago and is definitely something everyone should try.  I didn't want to come home