Canuck Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Fascinating, Wildman. Never thought of the 'smells like a business, tastes like a business....must be a business" test and it's impact on volunteer fatigue and rider perception. This is one of those debates that's healthy, and hopefully, we'll learn from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Wildman, you have taken exception to some of the posters using the term "business". How 'bout we use "organization"? Thirty five years ago a couple of guys got gas money to drag a bed spring from Apsley to Copper Lake. That was our groomed trail in the Apsley area. No paperwork, permits, etc. Some of that trail is part of the BDSC Anstruther to Aplsey trail & the north end Paudash's McQuigge trail. The rest has been abandoned. In the early 80s we started to buy our permits from Paudash to the north of the village. Just as the "structure" of the sport changed/evolved (however you want to put it) back then, the sport continues to change. W/ the amount of money that the clubs take in as revenue whether thru permit sales, fund raising, sponsorships & their assets (grooming equipment & clubhouses), the operation HAS to be looked @ like a business. We're not talking 2 guys (using their own sleds) & 500 bucks in gas money anymore. I'm not saying the clubs are in business to make a profit, but some checks & balances have to be in place. I do recall from my executive days that the club basically had to spend all their revenue each year. We couldn't keep very much from year to year. For that it was easy as there were payment to make & capital project to fund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Since it was brought up that clubs should try to get youngsters out getting involved ( and I know it had been said before ) but why not go to the local high schools and have them announce that volenteers are needed? When I was in HS (just a few years ago) they would have posters and announcement about volunteering possibilities because every student needs 40 hrs of volunteer work in order to graduate HS. I got my little brother to help me over the sumer with painting pickets for my club. It went for hours that he needs for school. Even now that he is done his 40 hours he asks me if there is any more work to be done in order to get the trails open. There is more to a club then just trail work but it gets them "in the door". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 this is the perfect post to use as evidence to show what has happened and why all the fallout is happening. First off, the whole federation is treated like a business from the provincial governments standpoint. We are now manipulated by labour laws (ministry of labour), we have to keep track of volunteer hours and submit them so the provincial government knows who is doing what. We have all these deadlines for permit input by the mto. At the end of every year the clubs, district and the federation (Barrie office) have to submit corporate income tax. The deal with the corporate income tax is to satisfy the provincial and federal governments that we are NOT a business and indeed NOT FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION. There use to be a huge difference between a business and not for profit organization. Now it seems the only difference is in whether the organization pays income tax or not. A business makes money, makes money off employee's labour, sells product or provides service at a profit and is taxed accordingly. We have none of that, yet we are treated like we do. People are not going to continue to volunteer if they are treated like an employee. The same thing goes for making changes within the ofsc, it is not a business, we do not have a C.E.O. and staff to make on the spot decisions right now. It is run by snowmobilers with a passion for the sport. It can change, but not without huge dollars, and I haven't seen where those dollars would come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Nutter (if you're still here LOL), Did you PPSC guys come up w/ the idea of "putting out" the word for help online (message forums/Facebook) yourselves or had other clubs been doing it? Do you know if any any other clubs have started doing the same. This is an idea that can be implemented w/o changes to the OFSC bylaws and/or operating procedures. It reaches people that normally may not be in the club's communication channels. I normally wasn't available to help out my home club, but was going to be around when Rick & his crew had some bridge work to do, so I volunteered. Has the club had any negative experience w/ this kind of "casting call" for helpers? Is it that hard to set up a Facebook page? Some might be hesitant to do so because they're afraid of the negative feedback. The OFSC talks about reaching younger sledders & I think this is the way to go. Heck each club must have some "youngsters" that are tech savvy that could administer the page. Websites that go a week or month w/o updating during the winter isn't timely. Kris I wouldn't say we pioneered it, because the OFSC has been doing it on their website for years by linking to club websites and/or contact info, TVBrian and I had/have the knowledge and were/are willing to put the time in to do it so we just jazzed up our club website and created a club forum, TVBrian and I also did a few training sessions to show other clubs how we did what we did and do what we do because our results in our efforts were awesome. Yukon and TVB have been carrying on with this training/information program for the past 3 years and the results are showing., but would show better if more would step and help some clubs that do not have tech savy members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Would helping the local club qualify for the "community service" high school kids have to perform before getting their Grade 12? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Since it was brought up that clubs should try to get youngsters out getting involved ( and I know it had been said before ) but why not go to the local high schools and have them announce that volenteers are needed? When I was in HS (just a few years ago) they would have posters and announcement about volunteering possibilities because every student needs 40 hrs of volunteer work in order to graduate HS. I got my little brother to help me over the sumer with painting pickets for my club. It went for hours that he needs for school. Even now that he is done his 40 hours he asks me if there is any more work to be done in order to get the trails open. There is more to a club then just trail work but it gets them "in the door". I love seeing posts like this ... cudos to you and your brother for staying with it and enjoying it for what it is :right_on: The OFSC has had high school student volunteer program flyers for years, it's just up to the current club volunteers to get them to the high schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Kris I wouldn't say we pioneered it, because the OFSC has been doing it on their website for years by linking to club websites and/or contact info, TVBrian and I had/have the knowledge and were/are willing to put the time in to do it so we just jazzed up our club website and created a club forum, TVBrian and I also did a few training sessions to show other clubs how we did what we did and do what we do because our results in our efforts were awesome. Yukon and TVB have been carrying on with this training/information program for the past 3 years and the results are showing., but would show better if more would step and help some clubs that do not have tech savy members. Rick I thought in your club's instance it was a great idea because the club was reaching out to all snowmobilers, not just their members. I had never seen a club using a message forum, let alone the 'net to get the word out. It's 1 thing to post Club ABC's contact info on the 'net. A lot of us have made our intentions known in various ways to the local club that we're willing to help, but we never hear back from them. On the other hand if the club throws it out there that next Saturday we need a hand getting a culvert in place, people are going to see it. I guess some clubs are pro-active (or at least try to be) in getting help. Some sledders, may live in an area that has a club but ride elsewhere (cottage). Just because they don't ride the local doesn't mean they can't help. "I don't want an executive position, but if you need a hand brushing a trail, let me know." I post that half jokingly & half seriously. If Luc's area wasn't a day & a half away, I'd be up there helping. It's not like I'm busy riding down here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I have to agree with a lot of your thoughts. However, in my many years of involvement I have have seen it many times that the clubs do not want change made without their input. They firmly believe that the organization is run from the bottom up, not top down. we hear it all the time on here how they are never given an opportunity to approve something and that the bad old OFSC is ramming down our thoats. I fully understand and appreciate that sentiment and how they feel that The only problem with that system is the time it takes to actively achieve the larger scope scenarios. Sure the clubs can go out and work on many things independently. However when you have, someone cited the number of clubs all demanding to have their input on so many things so much that should be achieved dies in the quagmire or takes so long to dig itself out. I mentioned earlier fuel for the groomers. Anyone know how much fuel is actually used collectively. I would hazard a guess that there is a Petrocan in almost all areas of the province. Leverage that and get a discounted rate for exclusive use. I am sure there would be clubs who will come back and say we always bought our fuel from cousin George and want to continue. Is that the best approach to survival as a whole. There is an OFSC credit card. How do we pay for fuel. It seems that the Districts allocate grooming hours. Those credit cards can be restricted as to where they can be used. Use the card for fuel and there is money the OFSC clubs spend on fuel coming back to the OFSC and flowing down to the clubs. Kiind of like giving yourself a payback for your own spending. Is there a better way to manage the distribution of permits and free up some resource for those people doing it in each club. Yes they are now offering online maybe we are heading in the right direction. Often people never change because they have never been empowered to initiate change or directed to. I had a situation where corporately we printed 120 million pages a year on copiers and printers. Looking at why I found a woman who printed as many as 300 per day. What do you do with them. I print them and put them into a file folder for that day. I have one for each day of the year and I empty the previous year as I put the current year in. Do you ever look at them? No, we used to though. Why do you do it then? That's the way they told me to do it 15 years ago when I started this job. Unfortunately there are too many people who do things because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Nope. you are wrong. When you buy a permit it allows you to ride the ofsc club trails. If you want to be a club member you must purchase a memebership to the club. The two are completely and totally different. The latter will allow you access to information and the ability to be a part of the club. The former will allow you riding access only. That is the business perception and thats the reality. I didn't know the clubs actually had membership fees themselves. I consider myself a member of my club and particpate where I can. I have attended meetings and never been asked to pay a membership fee. I suspect it is hard enough to get people to participate today without asking them to pay even more for the right to volunteer their time. The interesting part I find is that most clubs (not snowmobile) have people attending a club meeting not because they are part of the executive but because they want to be part of a club. With the limited exposure I have seen it is the executive attending and sometimes a couple of extra volunteers. It's lets get down to business and then see you later. Some clubs may have it but more need to embrace the club atmosphere with group rides and events more. You want more participation.... let the people feel they are part of a club and not just a work detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Would helping the local club qualify for the "community service" high school kids have to perform before getting their Grade 12? Absolutely... when I was in the D7 booth at the snowmobile show and someone would come by with high school aged kids I pointed out that volunteering for the local club qualified. When I asked what would you rather do... busboy at the community centre and dishes or work for the club they all said the club. They just hadn't thought of it. Communications can play a huge role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Absolutely... when I was in the D7 booth at the snowmobile show and someone would come by with high school aged kids I pointed out that volunteering for the local club qualified. When I asked what would you rather do... busboy at the community centre and dishes or work for the club they all said the club. They just hadn't thought of it. Communications can play a huge role. Exacly, the way it was worded for me in school was as long as you are not doing work that would be a paid position. You get paid to babysit, rake leaves, and shovel driveways. Those you can not claim as community service, working for the club is not a paid position so that is how my brother claimed it. Some schools may have different guidelines though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I fully understand and appreciate that sentiment and how they feel that The only problem with that system is the time it takes to actively achieve the larger scope scenarios. Sure the clubs can go out and work on many things independently. However when you have, someone cited the number of clubs all demanding to have their input on so many things so much that should be achieved dies in the quagmire or takes so long to dig itself out. I mentioned earlier fuel for the groomers. Anyone know how much fuel is actually used collectively. I would hazard a guess that there is a Petrocan in almost all areas of the province. Leverage that and get a discounted rate for exclusive use. I am sure there would be clubs who will come back and say we always bought our fuel from cousin George and want to continue. Is that the best approach to survival as a whole. There is an OFSC credit card. How do we pay for fuel. It seems that the Districts allocate grooming hours. Those credit cards can be restricted as to where they can be used. Use the card for fuel and there is money the OFSC clubs spend on fuel coming back to the OFSC and flowing down to the clubs. Kiind of like giving yourself a payback for your own spending. Is there a better way to manage the distribution of permits and free up some resource for those people doing it in each club. Yes they are now offering online maybe we are heading in the right direction. Often people never change because they have never been empowered to initiate change or directed to. I had a situation where corporately we printed 120 million pages a year on copiers and printers. Looking at why I found a woman who printed as many as 300 per day. What do you do with them. I print them and put them into a file folder for that day. I have one for each day of the year and I empty the previous year as I put the current year in. Do you ever look at them? No, we used to though. Why do you do it then? That's the way they told me to do it 15 years ago when I started this job. Unfortunately there are too many people who do things because. Totally agreeable, but who's going to do all the work to change this if those who are there are unable or not willing too ? Many volunteers have running their club down to a science to keep the volunteer workload to a minimum so they too can enjoy a sled ride once in a while, every new task put on them is time away from maintaining trails. As for bulking fuel, the OFSC does keep track of total usage amount. Not saying it won’t work but believe it or not going with a single fuel distributer province wide is not as easy as you think when you look at the whole province and see where some clubs have their equip staged, it has been looked into before, also some clubs run into local land use and political issues if they don’t work with local business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We just received an OFSC Volunteer Contact Form this morning with the person's name, contact info and interests. We'll be contacting him this week and hopefully he will come out and feel like he is contributing and enjoy his experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Since this topic's gone 'off topic' , does anyone know the progress of the Volunteer Liability Act? I threw away some late 2008-2009 snowmobile magazines, and flipped through some editorials. That issue was HUGE back then, but seems to have died down. (an idea was floated to limit Volunteer liability in lawsuits by 'changing the law' (legislation by the Ontario gov't). Anyone here involved in that? Know where it stands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The OFSC Main Trail is a great read for those that want to follow what happens at the OFSC governance level Here's the December issue. Open it up and read it through and let me know what you think. There's a lot going on. http://resources.ofs..._Dec2011_lr.pdf This should be sent to every Trail Permit holder by e-mail every time it's published. Until I was on the board of my club, I did not know this even existed. I agree, it should be sent to every permit holder who wishes to receive it. Or at the very least, to everyone subscribed to the OFSC Mailing List. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Until I was on the board of my club, I did not know this even existed. I agree, it should be sent to every permit holder who wishes to receive it. Or at the very least, to everyone subscribed to the OFSC Mailing List. Pretty sure it was, it was a huge campaign ... unfortunately not many other volunteer orgs did much about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat_w Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We need to do something, I agree. In my opinion, we need to do Driver Training for free. How more teenagers we get involved in snowmobiling how better, they need to run the snowmobile clubs in the future. Why are we charging them $40? The trainers are doing for free and I think it must become free for students. Thanks, Greg Driver training is under the control of the Ministry of Transportation. In effect we are issuing a modified "drivers licence" as agents of the provincial government. The fees are mandated by the government & cover training aids, records, driver training certification, etc. $30 of the $40 cost go back to OFSC. The $10 held by the club is for expenses, and any surplus must go into the same account as MOT permit revenues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Pretty sure it was, it was a huge campaign ... unfortunately not many other volunteer orgs did much about it. Well if it was a huge campaign, then it failed miserably! I have never received one via email to this day. As a club board member, I have received emails that it was available to download from the OFSC Resources page, (which you have to have a club user name and password to access.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Well if it was a huge campaign, then it failed miserably! I have never received one via email to this day. As a club board member, I have received emails that it was available to download from the OFSC Resources page, (which you have to have a club user name and password to access.) It was in the 08/09 season and if one opened a sled mag or bought a permit they recieved something about it from the OFSC, manu's and some after market co's, other volunteer orgs outside of sledding were also involved so it also got around to none sledders. Did you at least use the download and stick on your club website ? Many clubs did, but just like the call to volunteer not many care .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 WE NEED SNOW GUYS I am the average trail rider and don't have the vision some of you have nor the expierance in volenteerism and while everyone seems to be making good points at the end of the day its you and me that have to decide the future of sledding in ontario. One of the things that always bothered me is the lack of communication at the clubs i have been with i had bought my permits for several years from paudash and expressed an intrest in helping, NEVER GOT A CALL. last 4 years twin mountains in caygeon, They need the help but most of them can get outduring the week when i can't i feel like a freeloader at times not giving back when i can. Maybe a good idea id a district(s) wide volunteer list put available times up there if ppsc needs bodys who says i need to have bought a permit to help ? I think that could work i live in Lindsay area i have an easy drive to 4-8 clubs all within 30 min or so drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You're right it is difficult to get that first connection made between a Club and a Volunteer The Club tries a few times with no or limited response and then says "The Hell with It" The Volunteer indicates he is ready to help and nobody calls - He says "The Hell With it" It really seems to be a universal problem and it needs to get solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It was in the 08/09 season and if one opened a sled mag or bought a permit they recieved something about it from the OFSC, manu's and some after market co's, other volunteer orgs outside of sledding were also involved so it also got around to none sledders. Did you at least use the download and stick on your club website ? Many clubs did, but just like the call to volunteer not many care .... I did not post it on our website because I was under the impression that, without explicit permission, that I would be violating some policy. As the owners of the document, I felt that if the OFSC wanted it published to the masses, they would have done that. As it was under password protection, I believed that it was not meant for public viewing and it was not up to me to unilaterally change that. If you are saying that it is OK to be posted, it certainly will be from here on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The same thing goes for making changes within the ofsc, it is not a business, we do not have a C.E.O. and staff to make on the spot decisions right now. It is run by snowmobilers with a passion for the sport. It can change, but not without huge dollars, and I haven't seen where those dollars would come from. Hey Wildman.. How much (do you think) did the government involvement change the way the OFSC and clubs operate..... Did the government involvement swamp the sport with red tape and too much paper work? If this is the case (which I have heard for year) maybe we could (as a group of concerned snwomobilers) approach the government for more money that could be use in cases like Luc where it's either someone else does it for free or we lose the trail..... I just hate to see D'ville and the entire Districts 14-17 close due to a lack of local volenteers.. At some point a lifeline has to be thrown their way or they will go under... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You know who we really need to take on and bring the government to task on it the insurance companies. Some said it earlier in this topic or another topic than $60 or something from each permit goes to insurance cost. So say the OFSC sells 100,000 that's $6mlion just for insurance. For what? When some ass gets drunk and hits a tree he gets money after he sues? Why? If he gets drunk and hits a telephone pole in his car He can't sues Bell Canada? You go skiing and fall down and break your leg because you where actting stupid, can you sue Blue Mountain? No and thats private property on top of all that. Sure the clubs need to carry INS for themselves and we as sledders have it on our equipment. But it sounds like we are paying millions a year to help the morons, when no one elses has to. Sounds like we need to start a email letter to our local MPPs and have a moron sledder law passed so more money can go to the OFSC not the INS guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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