Nutter Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Here's where I take issue with the "the volunteers are the ofsc and the ofsc is the volunteers" line. Exactly who makes the decisions at the OFSC that affect the clubs.IE : Who decided the old signs needed to be replaced that showed a corner or an intersection or what ever? Was it a voting majority of volunteers? Did a MAJORITY of the "volunteers" involved with their clubs decide to shut down the manitowadge club or did the OFSC head office make that decision? One straight answer please. No BS. No ofsc rah rah rah. Just a straight answer. Who made those decisions? Decisions within the OFSC are made by the member clubs majority votes at AGM, or at their wishes by their Dist representative (dist Gov) when time restraints are involved. Any new signage guidelines are either brought forth at AGM for vote, or if it needs to be done right away then the board of Gov's will decide as the clubs voice and carry it's district clubs vote. (they should also communicate with their dist clubs before making any decision if they can, which is up to the member clubs to make sure they elec a dist gov who does such). Manitowadge club ...... I believe there's a thread on here with some of the exec from there explaining why they shut down their club, in the Northern Ontario forums (Dist 16 thread). The OFSC doesn't have the power to shut down anything, trails or clubs. The only decisions made by paid employees are small day to day decisions within their allowed budget, and even for those they still go through the OFSC volunteer exec (Prez, VP, 2nd VP and Secretary Treasurer, either before hand or have to answer to after the fact. The cannot make decisions on governance. On a side note my final post on this subject .... I understand everyones frustrations, I feel them myself, but I trulyl believe there is no one other then sledders themselves who will ever put forth the effort time and money to change, save, revamp .. ect anything to do with sledding. Yes sledding generates a huge economic benefit in some areas, others not so much, but let’s not kid ourselves, outside of the sledders themselves, some lodge and restaurant owners, sled dealerships and gas stations no one else really cares about sledding. If it can be made better the only ones who will do it are sledders themselves, either by pulling up their socks and doing it themselves, or by paying to have it done, which if you take out the tens of thousands of volunteer hours each season, the rider would be paying 10x or better each season to ride a network as good as it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 If it can be made better the only ones who will do it are sledders themselves Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. The sledders themselves, however, are completely shut out of the process1, so the only solution is to look at the problem (not the volunteers) from the top. UTS said it best, "they will never be able to see that no one is blaming volunteers." Can't we just work together? 1 Yeah, I know, I was supposed to drive some 1,000kms to meet with The Groomer Guy on a Wednesday night2 so we can talk about the problems with the OFSC website. Surely you can see the problem with that? 2 Or whatever night the D'Ville club hosted their meetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 AND AROUND AND AROUND AND AROUND IT GOES Until the music stops..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Another wise insight. Centralization is the way the world is evolving. If we are starved for volunteers lets look at how to best make use of the volunteer base we have. Large organizations are doing this. It used to be if I wanted a demo unit from IBM they had people doing this scattered all around the world for the countries they were in. Today Brazil manages all demo units world wide. As you suggested why can we not reduce the number of clubs possibly or the replication of some roles. Economies of scale. Leverage purchasing power. OFSC forms partnerships and alliances today. How about a contract for groomer fuel for the province and an offsetting savings for promotion ie. Shell official supplier of fuel to the OFSC. This needs to be looked at as a business and not a large collection of independent entities. A common goal brought the clubs together. Now a common need for survival mandates that they must evolve and yes I know there is some of that today. ie Muskoka Snowmobile region. But more can be done. Thanks for expanding on my ramblings. I wonder how much diesel the clubs use in a season? Find a supplier that is across the province & tell them we purchase X number of litres of fuel (on average based over a number of years). There has to be other "economies of scale". The OFSC deals w/ 1 insurance co' (at least they did in the 90s). The way some people talk every decision HQ makes has to be run past the AGM. Can't the chosen few make a decision on their own? What colour paper for press releases shouldn't be to hard to figure out. To the guys that are involved w/ the clubs @ the executive level: Next time you're talking to the OFSC executives ask them if they surf the various sledding forums & see what is being said. If they aren't, they had better get into the 21st century. I'm sure they could implement or at least discuss some of the ramblings posted online. I don't expect them to sign up on OC, FS, etcetera & introduce themselves to become a dart board for every gripe folks have about the OFSC either. I find it hard to believe if any of us have a suggestion it can't be directed @ the top but has to work its way up the bureaucratic ladder from the club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 tomany filters and the message will get added to or taken away from Kind of like the workplace game, "start a rumour & see if you recognise it when it gets back to you". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I posted elsewhere on the 'net. Why do we need individual clubs, especially of the number of available volunteers is low? Set things up so that the paperwork/management/administration is done @ the district level & the "patrols" look after the trailwork & grooming. In Dist' 2, there are 8 clubs. Does each club has a person looking after permit sales/memberships? A permit buyer would call the district office to buy their permit(s). They would tell the office which club they are supporting & the permit money would go into that account. The OFSC has to realize that they have to work smarter, not harder. This would help small clubs that don't have enough folks for all the "hats" the OFSC requires to staff a club. Your right, getting volunteers is becoming hard enough now a days, maybe its time to look beyond the small local club, and amalgamating the clubs in to their district and we go from there, why are their peopel doing the same thing 30 and 40 miles part from each other in some places. I'm part of District 3, there are 11 clubs in D3 and you can jump on E108 and cross them all but 1 (because its land locked with no feeder trail) in less than 250km. That' s basically a new club every 20-30kms... But I doubt that would ever happen, my guess is some of the clubs are run by the old boys that don't want to give up any part of their sandbox. How about it Nutter, I know you said you where done, but I bet you're still trolling around... Hypothetically speaking would you be open to melting the Port Perry club in a District 3 wide club? Or even splitting the district up in to a East/West club? If that was seen as the better thing for the OFSC? Sure in the real world there are some logistics to making it happen. But I'm saying all things aside and hypothetically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontariof7 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Technically the volunteers direct the OFSC. What is missed is that normal people really don't care about what lives under the OFSC name. Normal people think: "The OFSC is the business whom I give money to, to provide me with the services which I paid for." The OFSC needs a unified voice to talk with the customers, or we're going to continue to fight with problems of not only lack of help, but people abusing the system. That is the true root of the problem; that was my attitude when I first got into to sledding. My thoughts were not malicious but ignorant. I had no idea what went on to make the trails work. I know for a fact that my neighbours share this same thoughts as I did. However, as I got involved I grew an appreciation and understanding for the volunteers, the OFSC and clubs. Many people here on OC are too insightful into the workings of the OFSC and need to step back and realize that most sledders simply expect trails to open on the first snowfall, to have groomed trails 24/7 and somehow control mother nature, this is what they paid for. The OFSC needs a campaign to employ volunteers and to educate sledders on the true workings of our trail system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 But I doubt that would ever happen, my guess is some of the clubs are run by the old boys that don't want to give up any part of their sandbox. That's probably a very good analogy. Like ski' said there are givers and takers in all organisations. I spent 6 years as an executive member to help the sport, not for my personal gain. For some it was just exposure. If you were to ask me what those people accomplished all I'd be able to say is they got into a few club pictures. I've made my intentions known to the club that I'm willing to help out on the trails but never hear from them. Even still when riding I'll stop & cut away a overhanging limb or roll a rock that the groomer has "kicked up"off the trail. Mind you I'm probably broken several OFSC rules by doing so. No high vis safety vest, no pylons, no men working signs. Did I miss any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Blame the game NOT the Player The OFSC is not the problem The problem is selfish and lazy sledders aka I pay now give me trails and bureaucratic BS from governement YES some don't have the time or are too far no problem there, BUT many have the time and are around yet do NOTHING,there is your problem Also I have said it for years, the dream of a transprovincial trail system is and has always been un realistic and now we are seeing why Another thing is most sledders could careless about trails they will never see I could not give a rats ass about trails in Ottawa I will never go there, I do care about trails in Sudbury and Parry Sound as I have ridden there and now Kenora as I am right next door. Many sledders from up north ride only their local trails. Yes teh GTA guys travel but that is the only way for them to ride is to drive 1-5hrs to find trails, yet up north we can ride out of our yards onto OFSC trails as well as hundreds of kms of NON OFSC trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 The problem is selfish and lazy sledders Ultimately yes, but like ontariof7 said, they really, honestly, don't know any better. That is our problem, not theirs. If those of us trying to find a common goal can't even agree to talk to each other without going through several levels of indirection and secret handshakes (see revnds post), how are we supposed to talk to the thousands more who really have no clue? The problem isn't the OFSC specifically. The problem is that we are all ignoring each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Ultimately yes, but like ontariof7 said, they really, honestly, don't know any better. That is our problem, not theirs. If those of us trying to find a common goal can't even agree to talk to each other without going through several levels of indirection and secret handshakes (see revnds post), how are we supposed to talk to the thousands more who really have no clue? The problem isn't the OFSC specifically. The problem is that we are all ignoring each other. Yup being selfish and only thinking about ourselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Until I found this place I had no idea how that trail I was riding was kept open. I had a basic idea how the land owners came in to play but beyond that I was clue less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Until I found this place I had no idea how that trail I was riding was kept open. I had a basic idea how the land owners came in to play but beyond that I was clue less. Same here! Says a lot for OC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Your right, getting volunteers is becoming hard enough now a days, maybe its time to look beyond the small local club, and amalgamating the clubs in to their district and we go from there, why are their peopel doing the same thing 30 and 40 miles part from each other in some places. I'm part of District 3, there are 11 clubs in D3 and you can jump on E108 and cross them all but 1 (because its land locked with no feeder trail) in less than 250km. That' s basically a new club every 20-30kms... But I doubt that would ever happen, my guess is some of the clubs are run by the old boys that don't want to give up any part of their sandbox. How about it Nutter, I know you said you where done, but I bet you're still trolling around... Hypothetically speaking would you be open to melting the Port Perry club in a District 3 wide club? Or even splitting the district up in to a East/West club? If that was seen as the better thing for the OFSC? Sure in the real world there are some logistics to making it happen. But I'm saying all things aside and hypothetically? Didn't really want to talk about this anymore so I don't end up leaving something I enjoy like Luc just did, no matter what I say someone will always say something derogatory towards my thoughts and my person. But I'll give it a shot and run for cover .... Dist 3 is already divided into two, (SOSA) South Of Seven to the east and CORSA (Central Ontario Regional Snowmobiling Association), SOSA still is a single permit selling entity that shares grooming hours and permit sales, but CORSA isn't. When an association is formed there then has to be another layer of funding (another matrix), and another layer of governance to decide this matrix and org/corp by-laws ... ect. (some clubs have very different needs then others, in my observation of some asso's an even table is a rare thing so one side gets favored through more votes). District 3 does share costs in most of it's operations, infrastructure grants, signage, admin, promotion, dist map ..... ect. Trying to amalgamate fuel purchasing was looked into but with Heart of Ontario almost 300km west of the most eastern part of our district going all the way to The Tweed Snow Scooters with trails to Sharbot Lake, we couldn't find one co willing to deliver to such great distances (even one located in the middle). I held the prez position of CORSA for 3 years and did my best to keep it together while in that seat, as I think it's still important to have because our dist is so wide spread and diverse from one end to the other and was a great medium for clubs to help each other, but sadly it along with my club and provicial volunteering it was just too much for me, and now even with a new prez and some new exec I see them getting burnt out and it's just becomes another meeting and a night of volunteering on top of their club and dist stuff. For me to cast my vote as a PPSC club member for dist 3 or CORSA to form a permit selling and single grooming entity association, I'd have to see evidence that there would be gains for all clubs province wide not just dist 3 or CORSA, which when looked at with a fine tooth comb by a formed dist 3 committee at last year Dist 3 would of done it would of became a financial power house through the matrix points system and not given as much back to the province, right now PPSC, Heart Of Ontario and Ganaraska clubs give back more in permit revenue to the province then they keep for their own clubs via the provincial matrix, most of this would of stayed in Dist 3 or CORSA rather then go into the provincial pot had it been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. The sledders themselves, however, are completely shut out of the process1, so the only solution is to look at the problem (not the volunteers) from the top. UTS said it best, "they will never be able to see that no one is blaming volunteers." Can't we just work together? 1 Yeah, I know, I was supposed to drive some 1,000kms to meet with The Groomer Guy on a Wednesday night2 so we can talk about the problems with the OFSC website. Surely you can see the problem with that? OFSC General inquiries - 705.739.7669 Call Jean Noordoff adminstrator for the OFSC website .. Hi Jean , My name is Skidooer I'm a club member with XXXXXX club , I was looking at the OFSC website and have some ideas and thoughts I would like to talk with you about .... I'm Tech savy and also a Moderator on OC.com ... I have discussed this with my club and have brought it to the District / Our Govenor and they all Agree a change is needed , our Govenor will be bringing this up at the Next board meeting , but I wanted to give you some insight into my ideas prior too what the board decides and give you direction .... Thanks Skidooer for your call .. To the guys that are involved w/ the clubs @ the executive level: Next time you're talking to the OFSC executives ask them if they surf the various sledding forums & see what is being said. If they aren't, they had better get into the 21st century. I'm sure they could implement or at least discuss some of the ramblings posted online. I don't expect them to sign up on OC, FS, etcetera & introduce themselves to become a dart board for every gripe folks have about the OFSC either. I find it hard to believe if any of us have a suggestion it can't be directed @ the top but has to work its way up the bureaucratic ladder from the club level. You bet they do , and yes we do speak to them about what gets discussed .. Most of the time we get targeted as Kool aid drinkers , and stealing ideas though .. Sorry but when we say get involved and become a club volunteer , it takes the heat off of the ones who OFTEN get flamed for what they do for the sport ....... Throw the darts I guess ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Nutter, it's unfortunate that as you explain things another layer is added to the mix. The season before the Interactive Trail Guide was intro'd, I (along w/ others) were getting pretty ticked off w/ the inconsistancy of the online trail reports. Some districts submitted reports that were descriptive & easily read while others looked like they had been written by a couple of 7 year olds. I was @ the clubhouse & spoke to 1 of the executive about the issue & my thoughts. He said to email the OFSC explain the issue as you see it, include examples of the good and bad presentation & how I thought it should be corrected. I don't recall if I got a reply, but since the OFSC eliminated the text-based reports online, they obviously didn't feel the need to implement my suggestion. At the least they could've thanked me for the suggestion, but something else was being considered, so my idea wasn't need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Until I found this place I had no idea how that trail I was riding was kept open. I had a basic idea how the land owners came in to play but beyond that I was clue less. Same with me, once I was educated on what it takes I contacted my local club and I now attend meetings and help as much I as can between work and school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 how about it Nutter, I know you said you where done, but I bet you're still trolling around... Hypothetically speaking would you be open to melting the Port Perry club in a District 3 wide club? Or even splitting the district up in to a East/West club? If that was seen as the better thing for the OFSC? Sure in the real world there are some logistics to making it happen. But I'm saying all things aside and hypothetically? I'm not Nutter but I can tell you I don't want to see that happen at all. I think the clubs need to maintain there individual identity in order to bring in volunteers. The more corporate it becomes, the less interest there will be from "outsiders". Volunteers will leave. Who wants to work for a corporation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 OFSC General inquiries Respectfully, this is exactly what I have been arguing against the entire time. It saddens me a little that I have still failed to communicate it eloquently. Going through that process you outlined would make me feel good for getting involved, but what about all the others who are left out? As soon as my ideas are implemented, someone else is going to start wondering why their ideas aren't being heard. We're still ignoring everyone else who is ready to help out, and have ideas that are quite likely far better than my own. If you read the thread, it is clear that everyone is looking for transparency. How can we get there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Now a common need for survival mandates that they must evolve and yes I know there is some of that today. ie Muskoka Snowmobile region. Are there any folks out there familiar w/ Dist' 7/MSR? Are the 2 entities 1 & the same or separate? There are a couple of clubs that do not belong to MSR. Are they part of Dist' 7? If not, do they deal w/ the OFSC directly? Any ideas why these clubs do not want to belong to the larger group? I can't see how taking your toys & going home helps the sport. I know from my club experience, trying to get neighbouring clubs to co-ordinate grooming on adjoining trails was difficult. And that's a simple example. The average snowmobiler doesn't care about the politics & personality clashes, they just want the trails groomed in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Respectfully, this is exactly what I have been arguing against the entire time. It saddens me a little that I have still failed to communicate it eloquently. Going through that process you outlined would make me feel good for getting involved, but what about all the others who are left out? As soon as my ideas are implemented, someone else is going to start wondering why their ideas aren't being heard. We're still ignoring everyone else who is ready to help out, and have ideas that are quite likely far better than my own. If you read the thread, it is clear that everyone is looking for transparency. How can we get there? We can't wait for others to get involved , its is a choice .. Some of us put in a little , some of us put in a lot . 2 hrs in the city updating a facebook page per week or running a website / Forum .. Its not just politics and brushing ... I do speak on topics regarding many different forums , try to educate where I can through my committee team ... We all read the forums , just some of us are willing to speak publicly and take the heat ... You see I and many others on here aren't ignoring everyone else , but when we do speak we either get into a heated battle , flamed for speaking on how it is ... Some of us volunteers speak on what we believe in and try to be transparent ... If we buy cookies from the Girl guides does that mean we can tell them how to run the organization , not really ? Because to be taken seriously you need to be a part of it all .... thats just my opinion and I'm sure others will see it different ... I recognize some issues of transperancy and from that I got involved with the OFSC Volunteer In Action Committee ( VIA ) , we are starting to make changes in how we get the word out . But ultimately You really need to be involved at some level of club , Dictrict or even Provincial level to get full Transperancy ... I came on here many years ago asking how do I get involved , I got a great response from someone with in the OFSC food chain .. I realised that to make changes and make a better trail for me too ride on , I needed to get involved , Our trails weren't what they are now .. I could no longer sit back and expect someone else to provide me with a smooth trail ..... Truly Dooer I don't know you from Sam , don't even know if you buy a permit . But I do think you have a lot to offer at some level within the 231 snowmobile clubs in Ontario we know as the OFSC .. Are there any folks out there familiar w/ Dist' 7/MSR? Are the 2 entities 1 & the same or separate? There are a couple of clubs that do not belong to MSR. Are they part of Dist' 7? If not, do they deal w/ the OFSC directly? Any ideas why these clubs do not want to belong to the larger group? I can't see how taking your toys & going home helps the sport. I know from my club experience, trying to get neighbouring clubs to co-ordinate grooming on adjoining trails was difficult. And that's a simple example. The average snowmobiler doesn't care about the politics & personality clashes, they just want the trails groomed in a timely manner. District 7 is the District of Muskoka , within that District you have 11 Clubs .. 9 member clubs which form the Muskoka Snowmobile region (Association) Algonquinn , Tall Pines , Happy wanderers, Muskoka Sno Bombers , Du Ya Wanna , MLSTA , Highland Rovers, Smart and Baxter Snow Riders and two Stand alone clubs ( Non members of the MSR ) Snowcrest Riders and Hill and Gully . We all make up OFSC District 7 .... You will have to ask the two Stand alone clubs why they don't wanna join the MSR ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjack7 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Now im relitively new here and i'm sure alot of this wouldn't even becoming to lite if we had local trails to ride. That being said perhaps there is simply too many kms of trails in this massive province to be maintained. What would happen if we cut the number of km down to 20 to 25 thousand instead of the current 39000? I only put about 1000miles per season on 2 sleds between my wife and myself. Most in the muskoka area and when conditions suck we head north to kirkland lake area. I'm sure there are endless thousands of kms in this province that rarely get used. If it means scaling the whole system back by closing trails than go for it . Wont bother me any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think OF7 hit the nail on the head! There is a lot of ignorance on the part of many permit buyers. And by ignorance, I mean it in a true innocent manner. Until I decided to get involved with a club, and that idea was started by information received on OC, I had no idea how much went into getting trails ready. We need to get this information out to the general permit buying public. I may be wrong, but I think that once people get 'educated', they will get involved. It is hard to come out to what might be a closed group to try to get involved. Everyone has a fear of not fitting in, not knowing how or if they are useful, or just a burden. The northern clubs have an even tougher time because there are fewer potential volunteers and rougher terrain to cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm not Nutter but I can tell you I don't want to see that happen at all. I think the clubs need to maintain there individual identity in order to bring in volunteers. The more corporate it becomes, the less interest there will be from "outsiders". Volunteers will leave. Who wants to work for a corporation? Yup I agree for the most part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I recognize some issues of transperancy and from that I got involved with the OFSC Volunteer In Action Committee ( VIA ) , we are starting to make changes in how we get the word out . But ultimately You really need to be involved at some level of club , Dictrict or even Provincial level to get full Transperancy ... Yukon, I'm not doubting your dedication to the sport, but reading what I quoted, it almost sounds like to know what's going on a sledder has to join the club otherwise, you're an outsider (see Masons). Unless you're on the executive or a direct volunteer, you're in the dark. I know that unless you have been involved w/ a club, you may not know what is involved in running the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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