dweese Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Actually I think the deal is $1.00 per person or something like that. I know for sure that it is not millions. Insurance however. Even at $10 a person would barly cover the postage. Insurance is a big thing, and hard for us to do much about it. But start with the little things we can control, like that $1 per permit for Supertraxs and that becomes 2 new grommers with no permit increase. A breakdown of where the permit moneys goes would be nice to see. Maybe there are places we send a dollar or two that could be redirected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Even at $10 a person would barly cover the postage. Insurance is a big thing, and hard for us to do much about it. But start with the little things we can control, like that $1 per permit for Supertraxs and that becomes 2 new grommers with no permit increase. A breakdown of where the permit moneys goes would be nice to see. Maybe there are places we send a dollar or two that could be redirected. I think the majority of permit buyers enjoy receiving and reading the mags. I know I do. This way even during a bad winter, I feel like I got something out of my permit dollars. There has been years, where I was thinking I would just take a week off work when there is snow and buy the week pass and sled for one week. I know people at my work that already do this. Digital feature would be nice and I would be in favour of that, if it saved postage cost. I wish they would just make the permit and yearly snowmobile registration all one package, that everyone has to take when they register a snowmobile in ontario. This would really save on enforement of trail permits and license registration stickers. It would almost double the ofsc revenue. Bottom line is we have to elimante free loaders or our system will really be in trouble down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Bottom line is we have to elimante free loaders or our system +1 on that. And how do we do that? Good place to start would be to get the MTO to make the fines bigger. Right now what is it, you have to buy a permit trailside right than at full price? How about a $5000 fine and your sled gets impounded. Or a fine/chrage that effects your car inurance/driving record, something that makes people wakeup and say, well maybe I should buy a permit or just stay off the trails, because I can't afford the ticket. If its just a simple little fine, people will push the system, and if they make the year they feel good about their trick and try again next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Alot of people don't realize, if they don't have a valid trail permit there insurance is voided. That isn't enough to stop people from riding without a permit though. The fines defintaly have to get larger. Problem is there is barely any enforecemt out there to catch people that choose to ride with no permit. I'am lucky if I run into a stop or trail patrol officer once every few years. Every time I go past a police station I see the snowmobiles sitting in a trailer in their yard. People that aren't buying permits usually ride during the week I find, since their chances of getting caught are very slim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Free to the OFSC really???? WOW someone has a big heart. That was my understanding, though it seems that it is incorrect. Perhaps the magazines should be opt-in? If it wasn't for this forum, I would have never even known I could opt-out of receiving them. Nobody selling me the permit has ever given me the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 +1 on that. And how do we do that? Good place to start would be to get the MTO to make the fines bigger. Right now what is it, you have to buy a permit trailside right than at full price? How about a $5000 fine and your sled gets impounded. Or a fine/chrage that effects your car inurance/driving record, something that makes people wakeup and say, well maybe I should buy a permit or just stay off the trails, because I can't afford the ticket. If its just a simple little fine, people will push the system, and if they make the year they feel good about their trick and try again next year. The fine is currently $200 and increasing the fine might help. However, the bigger problem is enforcement. It doesn't matter if the fine is $5000 if the chances of being caught is minimal, IMO. However, an approach that might work is a public information campaign to let folks know that riders without permits are stealing 'their' trails and freeloading, not on the OFSC or the clubs, but on the riders that ARE paying their way. Get people to refuse to ride with someone who does not have a permit, and to be vocal when they see sleds without permits. Making 'freeloading' publicly unacceptable will probably change the situation more than a "Big Brother" approach of enforcement. How about a bright sticker that says "FREELOADER" that you can slap on a windshield! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Get people to refuse to ride with someone who does not have a permit, and to be vocal when they see sleds without permits. Sounds like a fun, albeit challenging, computer vision problem. Affix a video camera to the front of your snowmobile that observes passing sleds. From the feed, look for a permit. If not found, grab the license number and report the numbers back to the police. All autonomously, of course. Perhaps it could be distributed as a smartphone app so anyone can play. Once we have printable permits, the feed can be used to further assist the patrol officers and provide analytical data to the clubs to provide better feedback for funding and operational decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 How does the 407 work? Fiber Optic Transport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 wonder if anyone sues the 407 for their own recklessness. Why not? There arn't any Use at Your Own Risk signs on their ramps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marximuus Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Get people to refuse to ride with someone who does not have a permit From my experience, this is likely the biggest impact you can make as an individual. I know I've help change a few attitudes on the subject but I'd still like a few of those freeloader stickers to help persuade those with a little too much punk left in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 From my experience, this is likely the biggest impact you can make as an individual. I know I've help change a few attitudes on the subject but I'd still like a few of those freeloader stickers to help persuade those with a little too much punk left in them. Three or four years ago the OFSC ran ads all winter about freeloaders. Do ya think it helped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 From my experience, this is likely the biggest impact you can make as an individual. I know I've help change a few attitudes on the subject but I'd still like a few of those freeloader stickers to help persuade those with a little too much punk left in them. Here you go. Don't get hurt! These print 10 to a page on Avery (or compatible) #8253 Mailing Labels (2" x 4") Freeloader.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 Three or four years ago the OFSC ran ads all winter about freeloaders. Do ya think it helped? Maybe a little. It takes time to change what is socially acceptable. Just look at Drinking and Driving. However, if we can voice OUR disgust for freeloaders, it might go a lot further than a faceless OFSC ad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 This is what we used last year and posted them on our mapboards .... Freeloaders.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 This is what we used last year and posted them on our mapboards .... Freeloaders.pdf 2 thumbs up,,,, :right_on: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Sounds like a fun, albeit challenging, computer vision problem. Here is my first prototype. The blue circle represents the approximate area where it expects to find the permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Here is my first prototype. The blue circle represents the approximate area where it expects to find the permit. Interesting start! can you capture the image in enough detail to determine if there actually is a permit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Interesting start! can you capture the image in enough detail to determine if there actually is a permit? From the given video (which is one I snagged from Youtube), if the permit appears in the blue circle, detection of the presence of a permit seems fairly reliable. For those who have it located elsewhere, it becomes a bit more challenging using my current algorithms; mind you, I didn't spend much time perfecting them. I did have a bit more information to work with than what the video shows. Youtube kind of killed the size of the video when I uploaded it. The larger problem is determining the validity of the permit. I think it could be done, but it would be pretty difficult. You would have to rely on the nuances of the permit design. For straight up visual detection of the year, the given feed is probably not sufficient, which unfortunately removes the lowest common denominator of cameras. Higher end cameras could prove to be better in this regard. That said, a plain old camera situated to observe passing snowmobiles exclusively would also likely yield better results. All I could find is this generic video of the trail, which definitely isn't optimized for the use case. I'm excited for winter so I can do some field testing of the printable permits in the same way. I'm feeling that I can pull off reading them with a video feed of similar quality. We'll see. Come on snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 This is what we used last year and posted them on our mapboards .... Freeloaders.pdf I like it, YC! Is it going to be updated (Year is 2010) and used again this year? I hope so and do you know if it will be available for clubs to order as a sign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I like it, YC! Is it going to be updated (Year is 2010) and used again this year? I hope so and do you know if it will be available for clubs to order as a sign? I like it too, but what's up with the usage of steal? Did the OFSC become affiliated with the RIAA or something? If we are going to use a random word, let's use murder. Murder is far worse than theft. Thanks to Permit Buyers for your continuing support in 2010, but freeloaders are cheating you and murdering your smooth trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Skidoorer has given me an idea. Webcam software is fairly cheap. Clubs with clubhouses on the trail could setup video survalience. Check the recordings everyday and see how many snowmobilers are riding without permits. Should be able to capture license numbers as well. Has some potential anyway's. The freeloader stickers are awesome. The trail signs are good remainders but often don't change peoples habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 The 'penalty' for driving without a valid OFSC sticker should be higher. There are fines in excess of $400 in some municipalities (i.e. $450 for parking in handicapped parking spot without a permit in Toronto). Signs on the trail system : "The penalty for riding without a permit is $500.00" The Freeloader stickers are a great idea. As for 'radio' ads. NO. Please, no. I don't know what the deterrent ads cost in years past, but rather than 'pump up' Ontario snowmobiling, they were a downer. If they were 'community' advertising (i.e. free), that would be different. I suspect, however, that those were paid ads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Some people seem convinced they don't need a permit. Self fulfilling rhetoric, so I doubt they will change unless it hits their riding enjoyment. Maybe a fine and on a second offence, a no trespass order that would ban them from OFSC trails. Just saying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Skidoorer has given me an idea. Webcam software is fairly cheap. If you aren't going to do any processing, you don't even need a computer. Hunting cameras are around like $100 or less from what I'm seeing, but I don't know what the quality is like. Would they provide a photo that is clear enough to see the permit and registration number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 If you aren't going to do any processing, you don't even need a computer. Hunting cameras are around like $100 or less from what I'm seeing, but I don't know what the quality is like. Would they provide a photo that is clear enough to see the permit and registration number? I imagine they would if you have the right spot to mount them. Ie a spot that is narrow where sleds have to pass one by one. Worth investagting it would be interesting. I'am going to mention it at the next club meeting and see what people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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