UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Feel free to pay more. Just sayin'. Mossy, I understand that you dont want the permit price increased but the sad reality is that the trails need more money to operate. Yes we can all rely on the back of volunteers but that doesnt work. The volunteers need money to operate the groomers, operating expenses, admin expenses etc. Now if we are to believe (I am not privy to this information) that most clubs are going broke, that groomers are old and ill maintained, that cash is at a standstill and that more is only available with a government grant. The we must also face reality that we should all pay a littler more in order to sustain and grow our system. Im in the firm belief that if a snowmobiler cannot afford another $100.00 to maintain the system then he/she shouldnt perhaps snowmobile. Or that snowmobiler should be championing a new and or better system to alleviate those cost. Now in minor sports costs can be offset by volunteer hours. So what about a permit fee of $450.00 (just a number out of thin air) and then if you volunteer a certain amount of hours your $$$ goes down? Would that be better? I think that the more that people stick their heads in the sand, rely on government aid and dont face the economic realities of the system the more the trails and we will all suffer in the end. my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 The 407 uses a network of over head sensors at every on and off ramp, that ping your transponder. If no ping comes back a camera takes a picture of your plate. Data all goes back go a main system that works out far you went and sends you a bill. They say it runs around 97% correct. The pay as you ride idea sounds interesting, charge a flat $100 fee to buy in to the OFSC, that gives local clubs their pre-seaon money to start up. And pay where you ride from there per KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 The 407 uses a network of over head sensors at every on and off ramp, that ping your transponder. If no ping comes back a camera takes a picture of your plate. Data all goes back go a main system that works out far you went and sends you a bill. They say it runs around 97% correct. The pay as you ride idea sounds interesting, charge a flat $100 fee to buy in to the OFSC, that gives local clubs their pre-seaon money to start up. And pay where you ride from there per KM It does sound interesting, but, and it is a big but, the new plan must produce at least as much revenue as the current one. As has been said previously, the whole idea is to increase revenues. And that will be have to be weighed against a user pay system that may penalize high mileage users to the point that they either reduce their riding or drop out altogether. The other issue with a user pay system is the delay from the time of the ride (and related grooming expenses) and the subsequent billing and more importantly payment timeframe. With this type of delay, there are going to be associated bad debts and disputes over the charges. These all take someone's time to resolve and might place an even heavier burden on the volunteers. Just another point for consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 And that will be have to be weighed against a user pay system that may penalize high mileage users to the point that they either reduce their riding or drop out altogether. A good point. There is a mental stigma surrounding pay-per-use. Even if you really are only going to end up paying $150 to ride for a season, people would rather pay $200 and know there is no limit to their use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrummage Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I would imagine the capital outlay for this system would be prohibitive. And, imagine all the little trails that would appear to avoid the detectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Mossy, I understand that you dont want the permit price increased but the sad reality is that the trails need more money to operate. Yes we can all rely on the back of volunteers but that doesnt work. The volunteers need money to operate the groomers, operating expenses, admin expenses etc. Now if we are to believe (I am not privy to this information) that most clubs are going broke, that groomers are old and ill maintained, that cash is at a standstill and that more is only available with a government grant. The we must also face reality that we should all pay a littler more in order to sustain and grow our system. I don't think I would go as far as that, to say all clubs are in tough financial shape, but if we have another winter like last winter more clubs could start having difficulty maintaining trails to the same standard. Southern clubs seem to have enough cash to function well, not all clubs but the majority. The reason for this, is many poor years, a club can save some cash when the fuel bill is low and groomer repairs are nil. The problem now is the aging fleet of groomers. last season took its toll on many local clubs equipment. The club I belong to bit the bullet and up graded 1 groomer, so have neighboring clubs. If we groom as much as last year, it will become a shoe string budget. It doesn't make sense in my eyes to allow that to happen, it makes it very hard to recoup, look at what has happened in the northern portion of the province, that is what happens when money runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Lobby MPP's to limit or irradicate the right to sue organizations like OFSC, landowners, and volunteers. Have insurance for volunteers should they become injured or worse. Legalize the "Use At Your Own Risk" policy. Take the money saved on premiums and put it to the trails where it was intended to go. Put the liabilities on us sledders where they belong, we can individually buy more coverage if we're not comfortable with what we have. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cudney Racing Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 All they need to do is taking the funding away from those who don’t do a job up here and move the equipment and funds elsewhere where they do the job, that should help alliviate some of the financial and groomer burden. - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Lobby MPP's to limit or irradicate the right to sue organizations like OFSC, landowners, and volunteers. I always wonder why the OFSC doesn't get the community behind them on matters like this. Every other industry will get their customers involved in pressuring the government for change when it is necessary. Lobbyers are great and all, but nothing is more effective than an angry mob of snowmobilers. On the topic of the groomer fleet, I assume sharing the equipment with other industries, like farming, has been studied? Now that tracks are becoming favourable in agriculture, the tractors won't even need any real modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Lobby MPP's to limit or irradicate the right to sue organizations like OFSC, landowners, and volunteers. Have insurance for volunteers should they become injured or worse. Legalize the "Use At Your Own Risk" policy. Take the money saved on premiums and put it to the trails where it was intended to go. Put the liabilities on us sledders where they belong, we can individually buy more coverage if we're not comfortable with what we have. Just a thought. this is the biggest problem and it also seems to be the biggest hurdle. Maybe there is fear of rocking the boat and making things worse for us? It seems for every 1 person that likes snowmobiling there are a dozen that are against it and they are 50 times as vocal. I really don't know, but for some reason nobody really seems to do much to fight this problem. It is probably the best place to start an investigation on what can be done, as this is the cause of the biggest expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 On the topic of the groomer fleet, I assume sharing the equipment with other industries, like farming, has been studied? Now that tracks are becoming favourable in agriculture, the tractors won't even need any real modification. The club I am involved with has taken the step, we are leasing a tractor, a few of the club members are looking after wheel/soucey swap. It is labor intensive, but we will see. A lease is catch 22, we have to have that thing in *new* condition when it goes back or we pay a penalty. It was the only way we could do it financially. It will b interesting to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 this is the biggest problem and it also seems to be the biggest hurdle. Maybe there is fear of rocking the boat and making things worse for us? It seems for every 1 person that likes snowmobiling there are a dozen that are against it and they are 50 times as vocal. I really don't know, but for some reason nobody really seems to do much to fight this problem. It is probably the best place to start an investigation on what can be done, as this is the cause of the biggest expense. I think this needs to be addressed more from a "Protect our Volunteers" approach and therefore we can team up with "more acceptable" volunteer organizations. As you mentioned, we are an organization that has a lot of detractors and they are very vocal. Even if every one of the people representing the approx. 90,000 permits (and we all know that there are multiple permits held by one person so that reduces our number) were to participate, that is still not a very significant impact group when it is spread across the province. We need this ball to be visibly carried by other organizations that have large numbers of volunteers that are at risk of lawsuits. Otherwise, we may hurt ourselves more than we help. Rather than looking for changes in legislation, I think we need to look at things that are more within our purview to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Lobbyers are great and all, but nothing is more effective than an angry mob of snowmobilers. It may give us some 'satisfaction' but I really doubt that will get us far. Our numbers aren't large enough and we wouldn't have much support from the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 It may give us some 'satisfaction' but I really doubt that will get us far. Our numbers aren't large enough and we wouldn't have much support from the general public. But it's not just snowsledders that are effected. I'm thinking ATV'ers, cross country skiers, horse riding clubs, canoeing/kayack clubs, hiking clubs, the list goes on. If anything, awarding people for being stupid affects tourism and Ontario redidents quality of life in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 But it's not just snowsledders that are effected. I'm thinking ATV'ers, cross country skiers, horse riding clubs, canoeing/kayack clubs, hiking clubs, the list goes on. If anything, awarding people for being stupid affects tourism and Ontario redidents quality of life in general. Too true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Mossy, I understand that you dont want the permit price increased but the sad reality is that the trails need more money to operate. Yes we can all rely on the back of volunteers but that doesnt work. The volunteers need money to operate the groomers, operating expenses, admin expenses etc. Now if we are to believe (I am not privy to this information) that most clubs are going broke, that groomers are old and ill maintained, that cash is at a standstill and that more is only available with a government grant. The we must also face reality that we should all pay a littler more in order to sustain and grow our system. Im in the firm belief that if a snowmobiler cannot afford another $100.00 to maintain the system then he/she shouldnt perhaps snowmobile. Or that snowmobiler should be championing a new and or better system to alleviate those cost. Now in minor sports costs can be offset by volunteer hours. So what about a permit fee of $450.00 (just a number out of thin air) and then if you volunteer a certain amount of hours your $$$ goes down? Would that be better? I think that the more that people stick their heads in the sand, rely on government aid and dont face the economic realities of the system the more the trails and we will all suffer in the end. my 2 cents That being said put the price up and see if families like mine buy permits. My guess is NO EFFIN' way! Then with hundreds of families money not going to the cause what do you have then? NO TRAILS!!! NO GROOMERS!!! It's a balancing act that there is no good solution. So like I said go ahead and donate more! I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 What about dumping the free SuperTrax and Go Snowmobile mags we get every month in the winter? How much of our permit dollars go to print those? If you want to put out a monthly magazine do it in download able PDF, or have it emailed every month to the membership. The OFSC has already shown they want to be more high speed web driven, so let's use the website and save a whole bunch of trees and countless dollars on printing fees. And don't tell me advertiving pays for it all, because if that was true every magazine would be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 What about dumping the free SuperTrax and Go Snowmobile mags we get every month in the winter? I don't think the OFSC pays anything for those mags. Though I do like the idea of having an electronic version of them available regardless. Digital content is far easier to manage, and comes with the added ability to archive for future reference without a massive amount of clutter. Apparently there are some strange people out there that like reading form paper though. Give me a computer screen any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 I don't think the OFSC pays anything for those mags. Though I do like the idea of having an electronic version of them available regardless. Digital content is far easier to manage, and comes with the added ability to archive for future reference without a massive amount of clutter. Apparently there are some strange people out there that like reading form paper though. Give me a computer screen any day. Who you calling strange? I resemble that remark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irREVerent Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Who you calling strange? I resemble that remark! Ditto...and the same goes for paper maps... I find that reading magazines and newspapers on screen all the time is nowhere near as enjoyable as the paper versions...and don't even get me started on the frustrations of trying to navigate the OFSC trail system last winter using the Interactive Map. And from what I hear and read, I certainly have lots of company in that regard. So, to use skidooer's term, MANY of us are apparently "strange people". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Ditto...and the same goes for paper maps... I find that reading magazines and newspapers on screen all the time is nowhere near as enjoyable as the paper versions...and don't even get me started on the frustrations of trying to navigate the OFSC trail system last winter using the Interactive Map. And from what I hear and read, I certainly have lots of company in that regard. So, to use skidooer's term, MANY of us are apparently "strange people". VERY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Who you calling strange? I resemble that remark! I thought you of all people would have some fancy gadget for reading magazines attached to your snowmobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Does anyone have a breakdown on where or how a permit is spent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I don't think the OFSC pays anything for those mags. Though I do like the idea of having an electronic version of them available regardless. Digital content is far easier to manage, and comes with the added ability to archive for future reference without a massive amount of clutter. Apparently there are some strange people out there that like reading form paper though. Give me a computer screen any day. Free to the OFSC really???? WOW someone has a big heart. Supertrax is $22.99 a year and they are giving it away to 90,000 (I saw that somewhere else) permit holders free every year? Thats $2.15 million is lost subscriber income a year. Ok maybe not because not everyone would buy it if it wasn't free. But I'd bet it cost over a million bucks to print and mail out 6 copies a year to every permit holder in the OFSC. Where is that coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Free to the OFSC really???? WOW someone has a big heart. Supertrax is $22.99 a year and they are giving it away to 90,000 (I saw that somewhere else) permit holders free every year? Thats $2.15 million is lost subscriber income a year. Ok maybe not because not everyone would buy it if it wasn't free. But I'd bet it cost over a million bucks to print and mail out 6 copies a year to every permit holder in the OFSC. Where is that coming from? Actually I think the deal is $1.00 per person or something like that. I know for sure that it is not millions. Insurance however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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