sledjunk Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Despite the motion passed at the 2010 AGM (last year), the MTO has turned down the request to raise the fees for 2012 Permits. See the attached bulletin that was emailed to the OFSC mailing list today. Details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 finally some good news Yeah great news The $10.00 was to go towards replacing the groomer fleet. It would have raised about $900,000.00. Now where does the money come from to replace a badly ageing fleet? It means that the AGM has become meaningless because the will of the group can be overturned by the government in the interests of an election year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Tough to understand why the Ontario government would second guess the organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 its good that you folks want to try to replace the groomers, but try to shove another 10 bucks on a permit down a sledders throat and i think you;ll find a lot will just give up the sport. trying to make this into a rich mans game is not the answer. And making the volunteers suffer with patching together worn out equipment until they give up is the answer? $10.00 does not make it a rich mans sport. The insurance,cost of gas,cost of sleds etc. does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 And making the volunteers suffer with patching together worn out equipment until they give up is the answer? $10.00 does not make it a rich mans sport. The insurance,cost of gas,cost of sleds etc. does. I've had freinds quit for less. It's just another factor in the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 This might be the time for sled manufacturer's to step up to the plate. It's a known shortfall ($10 a permit) and perhaps they can collectively contribute that amount. BRP has raised funds for trails in the past. Perhaps others could look at a groomer initiative. ___ The debate about whether a $10 permit increase will 'force' people out of sledding is moot this year, since the increase won't happen. I suspect that the increase was the 'tipping point' in someone's decision to get out of sledding and participate in something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 this is a post on another forum from 2002. yes we pay $130.00 before dec 1st and $160.00 after but let us not forget the ontario licence sticker for $15.00 what is it for ? but you better have it. $145.00 for all permits before dec 1, i know that the government has got their nose into everything and it is now a total big expensive money urinating screwed up mess. insurance has gone up 800% now that we have the government working with us in the ofsc. no cut the permit prices in half, kick the government involvement out totally and get back to doing things right with a common sense approach. I don't know where you got your information but it doesn't jive IMO. Yes, the MTO is responsible for the permits and the OFSC clubs and selling entities can sell them. However, none of the money from the permit sales goes into the government coffers. Every permit has to be accounted for and the clubs collect the money and pay the OFSC for the permits as they are sold. The benefit of the MTO involvement is that we can have legislation to make it a provincial offense to be on an OFSC trail without a permit. I will not comment whether or not there are opportunities for belt tightening and cost reductions within the OFSC and its member clubs as I do not have enough information to give an opinion. However, I can say that if costs were to be cut, you would still not see permit costs halve. You have to remember that the permit price over the last six or seven years ( I can't remember exactly) has only risen from $180 to $200 (pre Dec 1 price) and that was after the price holding steady for five or so years. There are very few things that you can buy today within 10% of what you would have paid six or seven years ago. Yes. sledding is expensive. However, I would invite you to analyse your sledding costs over a season and determine what percentage of your costs are for permit fees. As for the insurance going up 800%, I need to see your data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakesnowcrest Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Doonut said this on another forum. I guess I won't have to remortgage the house to pay for 3 or 4 permits this year BUT, I would maybe suggest that the OFSC ask all members for a 10 dollar groomer fund donation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 this is a post on another forum from 2002. yes we pay $130.00 before dec 1st and $160.00 after but let us not forget the ontario licence sticker for $15.00 what is it for ? but you better have it. $145.00 for all permits before dec 1, i know that the government has got their nose into everything and it is now a total big expensive money urinating screwed up mess. insurance has gone up 800% now that we have the government working with us in the ofsc. no cut the permit prices in half, kick the government involvement out totally and get back to doing things right with a common sense approach. OFSC permit price inrease over the last 8 years = 10 % OFSC cost of fuel up by 125% OFSC insurance cost in 1999 $163,000.00 today more than 3 million. Not because of the MTO but because of lawsuits. Parts for groomers,oils,new equipment etc all have gone up huge. Could you operate your business like that? Increaseing costs and not increaseing income? Not for long enjoy your sledding today cause if something does not change it does not look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 is there anyway of getting a look at this nonprofit organizations books? Lucky you say you are a trail patroller. Simply call up your club president and ask him/her for a copy. It is presented every year at AGM they will have a copy. The tin hat conspiracy theory falls apart completly when you do the simple math income has gone down expenses keep going up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 OFSC permit price inrease over the last 8 years = 10 % OFSC cost of fuel up by 125% OFSC insurance cost in 1999 $163,000.00 today more than 3 million. Not because of the MTO but because of lawsuits. Parts for groomers,oils,new equipment etc all have gone up huge. Could you operate your business like that? Increaseing costs and not increaseing income? Not for long enjoy your sledding today cause if something does not change it does not look good. EXACTLY, what was a permit in 99, I believe it was $150. There was 1 year they had to put a surcharge on the permit because the insurance went up and if they didn't get more money they wouldn't be able to operate. I'm sick of hearing people cry about the price of a permit, when they pay five times the price on tax on a new sled. Get ur heads out of the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Not much point in fretting about these types of issues. Snowmobiling has been AWESOME the past couple of seasons. Trails were mint last year. The Ontario decision to short-change the grooming program 'is what it is'. We elected them, they decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 We have the biggest and the best trail system in the world, $200 for access to what 30,000km of link trails? Sounds like a good deal to me. I would be willing to pay an extra $10 or $20 a year extra. Sorry its just the cost of having fun in this world... Yes sledding is a rich man sport, but everything now a days is a rich man sport.. Golf, $50 for a round, and a membership at even a middle of the road club is going to run you $1000+ a year. Skiing, even the local dirt piles are pushing $50 a day, with season passes running from $300-$1000+ NHL game, want to go see a Hockey game? Well for you and the wife, or the family, with tickets, parking and dinner. That's going to be $200-$1000 How about a day at Canada's Wonderland, there is an easy $500+ Last year I put about $1000kms on my sled, and with permit, gas, oil and insurance I think I spend all of about $800 over the 4 months riding we had. That's cheaper in my mind than anything else I could be doing. I just can't believe MTO said no to it. The only reason I could see, is if the package put forth by the OFSC was "Hey MTO we want to add $20 to the permit cost this year" and didn't give any reasons why they wanted to charge more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Lucky you say you are a trail patroller i am. just cause i don't always agree with the way things operate don't mean i still won't get involved in the operation to try and better the group if i can. My point is ask your club for the info you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 We have the biggest and the best trail system in the world, $200 for access to what 30,000km of link trails? Sounds like a good deal to me. The problem has never been cost. The problem is the risk. I can think of a few potential ways to attack the problem, but I'll save it for the next club meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 sometimes less is more, by not marking up the permit price maybe they think there will be more sold. What are you smoking ? $10.00 would keep who from sledding? But it does make a big difference to replacing groomers. Maybe it is an election thing after all Dalton is against taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 not me cause i'm a die hard sledder, but some others maybe. need to draw the line someplace, when do you decide to put the big truck away and drive the small car because of the price of gas. Not the same, you can't bring the gas price thing in to play here...We are talking about $10 once, the gas thing is a weekly, or daily thing. I should know as I drive 1200km a week back and forth to work. Yes some need to draw the line, but you are saying a $10 increase in permit price, could be that line in the sand, whether or not someone stops sledding, than they have bigger issues to worry about, if they can't spend an extra $10 The price of gas is going to kill our sport long before permit fees will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Maybe it is an election thing after all Dalton is against taxes. You know as funny as that sounds, Dalton can say "hey sledders I helped keep your permit fees in check the last 8 years, so vote for me" But we keep the politics out of this thread I'm sure, the off topic forum will get heated in the weeks to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Two hundred dollars is pretty cheap considering you can ride on private property from town to town and on and on as long as the snow co-operates. Throw in the mix club houses, groomage, signage, etc.etc., a heck of a deal. Ten dollars or so on top of that dedicated to maintance and replacement of equipment only makes sense. What i find alarming and I'm sure it's been hashed out many times on these forums is the huge cost of insurance OFSC pays each year. Use at Own Risk should carry more legal weight in my opinion. Mother Nature rules the trails, not us, washouts happen, trees fall down, ice bridges cave,etc. etc. Grooming occurs 24/7, be prepared. Can always buy more coverage on our own if we,re not comfortable with what we have. Just ranting I guess but insurance costs must be a big factor when determining permit costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 We wouldn't need insurance if there wasn't so many stupid people out there. But I'm sure a lot of the insurance cost goes to cover the volenters out on there keeping the trails in top shape all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Two hundred dollars is pretty cheap considering you can ride on private property from town to town and on and on as long as the snow co-operates. Throw in the mix club houses, groomage, signage, etc.etc., a heck of a deal. Ten dollars or so on top of that dedicated to maintance and replacement of equipment only makes sense. What i find alarming and I'm sure it's been hashed out many times on these forums is the huge cost of insurance OFSC pays each year. Use at Own Risk should carry more legal weight in my opinion. Mother Nature rules the trails, not us, washouts happen, trees fall down, ice bridges cave,etc. etc. Grooming occurs 24/7, be prepared. Can always buy more coverage on our own if we,re not comfortable with what we have. Just ranting I guess but insurance costs must be a big factor when determining permit costs. So maybe the insurance companies should pressure the "justice system" to get rid of frivolous law suits forced onto the courts by ambulance chasers! Too many times I have heard about some jackass riding too fast and crashing their sled and starts to blame everyone else! This crap has to stop or we will have no trails at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 So maybe the insurance companies should pressure the "justice system" to get rid of frivolous law suits forced onto the courts by ambulance chasers! Too many times I have heard about some jackass riding too fast and crashing their sled and starts to blame everyone else! This crap has to stop or we will have no trails at all. We could only be so luckly....... The problem is, what about those people who truely deserve some sort of payout, because someone else was at fault. Its hard to fix a system to stop the fraud without punishing those who really need it. Its the same as our welfare system, sure there some that need it, but most are just to lazy to get off their ass and go get a job. Why go get a job paying $10 an hour when welfare will pay you $8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 We could only be so luckly....... The problem is, what about those people who truely deserve some sort of payout, because someone else was at fault. Its hard to fix a system to stop the fraud without punishing those who really need it. Its the same as our welfare system, sure there some that need it, but most are just to lazy to get off their ass and go get a job. Why go get a job paying $10 an hour when welfare will pay you $8. There probably aren't any cases where it is someone else's fault and the ofsc should be sued for it. It is clearly stated, "use at your own risk" the speed limit is 50km/h. If someone cant negotiate the trail at 50k they should do something else, the justice system needs to stand up and tell people they are responsible for there actions and not hand out these ludicrous settlements. If someone is gonna lose their house because they messed themselves up and can't work, to bad, it's not anyone elses fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 There probably aren't any cases where it is someone else's fault and the ofsc should be sued for it. It is clearly stated, "use at your own risk" the speed limit is 50km/h. If someone cant negotiate the trail at 50k they should do something else, the justice system needs to stand up and tell people they are responsible for there actions and not hand out these ludicrous settlements. If someone is gonna lose their house because they messed themselves up and can't work, to bad, it's not anyone elses fault. Bingo! Why should the rest of us suffer because people like this? There was an out of court settlement a few years back in this area. Guy was driving too fast, went airborne and crashe into the upslope on the other side of the hill. He tried to sue the land owner the club the OFSC and the people who marked the trail. He wasin a wheel chair for 8 month (Might have been more) with a broken lower back. The case settled out of court he got a crap pile of money and pretty much jumped out of the wheel chair a few weeks later. IMO these peoples names should be smeared across bill boards. On the other side of the coin there are the people who have been injured by someone in the wrong doing. Completely different circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 There probably aren't any cases where it is someone else's fault and the ofsc should be sued for it. It is clearly stated, "use at your own risk" the speed limit is 50km/h. If someone cant negotiate the trail at 50k they should do something else, the justice system needs to stand up and tell people they are responsible for there actions and not hand out these ludicrous settlements. If someone is gonna lose their house because they messed themselves up and can't work, to bad, it's not anyone elses fault. Couldn't agree more, likely take legislation though to end this B.S. Never hear of any-body winning a lawsuit against the MTO when they roll their car failing to negoiate a curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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