Mossy Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 When my spouse was running a marathon, they would give her a chip thingy that read when she left the start and when she crossed the finish for her time. Use a chip on each licensed sled as part of the sticker. With a network of sensors, you could determine useage. Hmmmmmm. Pay per use? Might be a idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 With a network of sensors, you could determine useage. RFID chips are pennies, but it would take a pretty big network of sensors to get reliable data. I imagine that could get expensive. A transponder could likely be built for $200 though. GPS logging with wireless mesh to work the data down to Barrie for billing. First year is free, pay per use after that. Or you could just have people print their permits. It is virtually free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hmmmmmm. Pay per use? Might be a idea. Not a bad idea but there needs to be a way to get money to the clubs pre-season. Maybe a hybrid system where a pre-season pass is unlimited but you can opt to pay per use? That would satisfy the high use riders that the cost for the season is fixed, the clubs get funds up front, and the limited use riders would be happier taking the chance that they can save money depending on use. Rates would have to be adjusted so that the overall revenue covers the cost of the new systems and still provides at least the same, if not more, money 'on the snow'. Protection / security would also be an issue for the devices in the field. We have a hard enough time stopping the plastic STOP signs from being stolen, let alone a piece of electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Don't forget that you would also have to have the electronic devices enabled for satelite since connectivity for cell transmission is sketchy at best. Big $... but it is nice to have visionaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Don't forget that you would also have to have the electronic devices enabled for satelite since connectivity for cell transmission is sketchy at best. Big $... but it is nice to have visionaries. How does the 407 work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 How does the 407 work? Not 100% sure but I would expect it is hardwired of some sort. Nevertheless, it is not in the middle of nowhere where there is no coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Don't forget that you would also have to have the electronic devices enabled for satelite since connectivity for cell transmission is sketchy at best. Big $... but it is nice to have visionaries. No need for satellite. There exists writable RFID tags. The sensors can communicate using a mesh network and where range is still a problem, the data can be placed on the passing snowmobiles to extend the communication area. In reality the current generation tags probably wouldn't pack enough information, but if such as system were to be created, it would be several years off. Storage is bound to expand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 No need for satellite. There exists writable RFID tags. The sensors can communicate using a mesh network and where range is still a problem, the data can be placed on the passing snowmobiles to extend the communication area. In reality the current generation tags probably wouldn't pack enough information, but if such as system were to be created, it would be several years off. Storage is bound to expand. Hmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hmmmmm. Actually, just doing some research, the technology may have already progressed further than I thought. I'm seeing reports of tags that can store several KBs of data. If each snowmobile has a 128bit identifier and perhaps another 128 bits to identify the sensor, and we assume, say, a 10KB tag, each snowmobile can transport over 300 snowmobile recordings. That should provide for plenty of room for redundancy in the event of snowmobiles who disappear off the beaten path or do malicious things to their permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 the current system works, it could use some adjustment, the thing it lacks is enough funds to maintain trails to the expectation level of permit buyers. Plain and simple, if u want good trails, they come at a price, if u don't want price increases, lower ur expectations. U think those 4 track soucy systems are cool pulling a $26k sledgehammer drag? $95k front wheel assist tractor and $62k for the soucy tracks......u do the math. That is just the grooming equipment, it's easy to spend 4k on signs and another 2k on stakes. Oh ya, most clubs have at least 2 groomers as well. Another 4-6k per month fur fuel......u people r right, the permit price absolutely should not go up. The club I belong to spent north of 30k in groomer repairs and maintenance, 70% of that was done in house with zero labor. 1 more good season like that and we r gonna b screwed. Would u rather have trails to talk about and have fun on, or a forum to discuss how good snowmobiling use to b when the permit was 200 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 the current system works Absolutely, but it is a whole lot of fun talking about how things could be different. That is why this forum exist: To talk about snowmobiling. The absolute possible worst thing that could happen is that it turns out to be just talk. But who knows, maybe we'll stumble upon the perfect plan to make the OFSC even better than what it is today? It never, ever, hurts to discuss. Not directed at you, but I'm not sure where the notion that every idea ever discussed has to be implemented. The discussions are meant to open the dialog of ideas; brainstorming if you will. This forum has helped in the direction of the OFSC several times in the past, so it is a model that has proven to work very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I fail to see how the current system works, if clubs are going broke and always running on a shoe string budget dependant on volunteers and government handouts. Where is the sucess in that model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I fail to see how the current system works, if clubs are going broke and always running on a shoe string budget dependant on volunteers and government handouts. Where is the sucess in that model? the current system works if there is enough MONEYhence the topic PERMIT PRICE INCREASE leave it the same, feel the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 the current system works if there is enough MONEYhence the topic PERMIT PRICE INCREASE leave it the same, feel the pain. I dont think the system works. All I hear about is clubs going bankrupt, clubs on the brink of bankruptcy, not enough volunteers, government grants, groomer expenditures out of whack,.........i could go on and on. I agree on an increase for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 the current system works if there is enough MONEY That doesn't really prove anything. For instance, with an electronic permit system, the clubs will know exactly where and when riders will be using the trails. Given that information, it will be easier to send groomers to the right places at the right times, perhaps negating the need for as many as there are – a huge cost cutter. Maybe with the information of a new system, we really only need a $100 permit? It's a hypothetical point, but it shows that the current system may not really work all that well. It pays to look at the alternatives to verify that, in fact, it cannot be done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 The current system does has flaws. The electronic system sounds kind of cool and maybe it won't be that far off. Electronics are becoming cheaper all of the time. I always thought why do so many neighbouring clubs have their own groomers, when they could share and run the groomers 24, 7 and get newer equipment sooner and save on isurance and maintaince costs. I see alot of groomers only moving 3-4 times a week for approx 8-10 hours at a time. Most clubs maintain about 70km of trail per groomer. The golden traingle sent a few groomers north (before they had enough snow to open) early in the season last year to help out grey bruce. They had lots of snow and a huge increase of sledder traffic. This is a good example of how idle equipment can be put to good use. There are definatly some ways to cut costs and keep costs down. I would like to see more equipment moved around during snow shortages to area's that need the equipment. The bottom line is, it costs money to opearate trails, whether it snows or not. So it is up to us as riders and volunteers to buy a permit each season and hope the ofsc puts our money to good use. I know the volunteer's appricate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 That doesn't really prove anything. For instance, with an electronic permit system, the clubs will know exactly where and when riders will be using the trails. Given that information, it will be easier to send groomers to the right places at the right times, perhaps negating the need for as many as there are – a huge cost cutter. Maybe with the information of a new system, we really only need a $100 permit? It's a hypothetical point, but it shows that the current system may not really work all that well. It pays to look at the alternatives to verify that, in fact, it cannot be done better. if u can do it that is great, if it will work u have my vote, just don't screw it up anymore than it is. Now all u have to do is implement it. I never once said change wasn't needed, change is great if it makes the sport better. Everybody needs to realize the current system got us where we are, the problem is the permit price didn't go up with inflation. Everything else in life has gone up in price, but not the dreaded ofsc permit. Don't shoot the messenger, I am just trying to show people the reality of the whole deal, if the permit doesn't go up, and more money doesn't come from somewhere (the sky perhaps) the current level of trail quality will not remain. Daydreaming will not repair anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Don't shoot the messenger, I am just trying to show people the reality of the whole deal, if the permit doesn't go up, and more money doesn't come from somewhere (the sky perhaps) the current level of trail quality will not remain. Daydreaming will not repair anything. Your point of view is certainly welcome and appreciated. The crux of the matter is that we don't know what is better than the current system. We need some proofs to illustrate why the current system beats the alternatives in order to fully understand the issues. The great thing about these discussions is that we can pull out real hard facts to argue both sides. Except when I post in jest, I try to always support my arguments with real facts and figures so that those on the other side can provide their counterpoint. The more information we can all provide, the better solution we will ultimately come up with. So there is definitely some daydreaming going on (it's where the ideas originate), but we are working to find real solutions. I understand you are just the messenger, but hopefully someone can give facts as to why the existing system is better so that we can evaluate and proceed to finding the best implementation possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I guess I must misunderstand the root problem. I was under the impression that the clubs and trail systems that have closed within the ofsc system did so because there was not enough money to fund them. I have not seen that there is any major corruption within the ofsc, so that would tell me that most of the share of cash is being used to make the system work. When the system does not have the cash flow to operate to the current standards, the source of cash has to give more. Your ideas are great, I fail to see how it can be implemented without a huge amount of cash. Cash is the root cause of the problem as I look over the financial statement of my local club. The financial statement of district 5 is scarier. Groomers moving within the district is great, and can work well, but if u want to start floating grooming equipment around the province, u better get some quotes.....don't furget to sit down when getting the quote. There are allot of things that can make the system better, but it is the age old thing, the same as in everyday households, more cash will make it work better. I don't know why people can't accept that, but they won't. It is a user pay system.....the user's need to pay more. Go look at a bill from getting ur brakes repaired on ur car from 5 years ago, go get a quote for the exact same parts and labor on that exact same car today. Figure out the inflation and tell me how the ofsc can operate on the same money today as they did 5 years ago. I really can't see how nobody else can figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 if u can do it that is great, if it will work u have my vote, just don't screw it up anymore than it is. Now all u have to do is implement it. I never once said change wasn't needed, change is great if it makes the sport better. Everybody needs to realize the current system got us where we are, the problem is the permit price didn't go up with inflation. Everything else in life has gone up in price, but not the dreaded ofsc permit. Don't shoot the messenger, I am just trying to show people the reality of the whole deal, if the permit doesn't go up, and more money doesn't come from somewhere (the sky perhaps) the current level of trail quality will not remain. Daydreaming will not repair anything. I agree with you 100% If it were me I would double the price, give a family permit, give a classic permit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Your ideas are great, I fail to see how it can be implemented without a huge amount of cash. Not sure if this is directed at me, but I've outlined the costs of my idea. They are negligible. Though my cost calculations do rely on volunteer help, which the official OFSC forum spokesman has stated they will not accept. Paid labour does make the plan start to become costly, I will grant you that. Groomers moving within the district is great, and can work well, but if u want to start floating grooming equipment around the province, u better get some quotes.....don't furget to sit down when getting the quote. I've had a few tractors trucked around in my day (I mean just look at my avatar ). It's not actually that bad. You don't even need to float them though, just send them out on the trail. They may as well be doing some work during transport. Of course it is all ideas at this point. We need some real numbers on the current system side to make some logical arguments either way. Though we can have some pretty interesting and insightful discussions regardless. Anyway, feel free to continue debating the current system side. It's all in good fun no matter the outcome. Edit: Before someone pipes in about the operator time it would take to drive a tractor across province, I will remind you that no operator is needed. Tractors know how to drive themselves: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 It will be interesting to see how permit sales go this fall and early winter. The economy isn't doing that well right now and americian traffic will be down again this winter. Bad news for the northern tourism. With the high price of sleds and gear and everything else, it is hard to get new riders into the sport. At least the ofsc and a few manufacturers have been trying to get new riders, by holding demo days and learn to ride programs. Permit prices went up alot earlier in the decade and have held steady in the last few seasons. We lost a good handful of riders in the process. I know quebec's permit is higher but includes basic lability insurance. So you take that into consideration they are pretty equal and quebec tends to get a longer riding season then a good portion of ontario. It is too bad if you hold an ontario permit that you can't get a discount on a weekly quebec permit or vise versa. I think there is a potential for both provinces to increase sales here. It might be more in quebecs favour though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I certain it is not original, but here's one I have never heard before: Why doesn't the OFSC manage the provincial snowmobile licensing program? I've heard the opposite suggested with some good reasons why it is a bad idea, but never the reverse. Not only would it provide a new income stream for the organization, it would allow for the much sought after combination of permits and licensing without the side effects. I know the red tape in Queens Park loops around parliament an impossible number of times. That isn't a good enough reason to not pester our MPPs until they change the status quo, if it is deemed a desirable goal. We are the government; we can do what we collectively want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Frankly, I wonder if sometimes we get caught up in all the intricacies without looking at the basic facts. The premit price with inflation and slush fund regardless of govt grants should be $285.00 I would put it at 325.00 and then put a family discount at 10% per sled compunding to a max of 40% and a classic permit of $199.00 also I read the #'s and the permit price is way too low and wont cover off all the basis's option B License every sled in ontario, and ask the MTO to collect the #'s on our behalf and your permit price would drop to $149.00 per sled. Pretty simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Frankly, I wonder if sometimes we get caught up in all the intricacies without looking at the basic facts. The premit price with inflation and slush fund regardless of govt grants should be $285.00 I would put it at 325.00 and then put a family discount at 10% per sled compunding to a max of 40% and a classic permit of $199.00 also I read the #'s and the permit price is way too low and wont cover off all the basis's option B License every sled in ontario, and ask the MTO to collect the #'s on our behalf and your permit price would drop to $149.00 per sled. Pretty simple really. Feel free to pay more. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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