Zero Alcohol

[Canuck]

The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) issued a statement saying it welcomes Ontario's new Zero Alcohol Limit for drivers 21 and younger. Starting this month drivers 21 and younger cannot consume alcohol before getting behind the wheel of a car or driving a snowmobile in Ontario.

While I couldn't find the OFSC press release, there are numerous reports (ie Amsnow ) or local papers

http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=38101

[sledrob]

It's not such a bad deal ... too many folks meet trees because of the lack of skill related to being drunk ...

[Yukon]

It's not such a bad deal ... too many folks meet trees because of the lack of skill related to being drunk ...

More sledders meet trees because they don't know how to ride safely within the posted speed limit, more drunk drivers are found on lakes avoiding OPP,Trail Patrol and Stop Officers that Patrol OFSC precribed trails ...

The OFSC prides itself on a safe riding experience , and in my opinion our trails are safe.

Regardless operating any vehicle while under the influence is a bad Judgement call .....

I welcome the Zero Tolerence policy the OFSC follows ...

[ToSlow]

It's not such a bad deal ... too many folks meet trees because of the lack of skill related to being drunk ...

More sledders meet trees because they don't know how to ride safely within the posted speed limit, more drunk drivers are found on lakes avoiding OPP,Trail Patrol and Stop Officers that Patrol OFSC precribed trails ...

The OFSC prides itself on a safe riding experience , and in my opinion our trails are safe.

Regardless operating any vehicle while under the influence is a bad Judgement call .....

I welcome the Zero Tolerence policy the OFSC follows ...

my name is TRACY and i approve this message. i strongly think there should be zero tolerance on a sled for all that are on the trails not just for 21 and younger.

oh and by the way, hello Paul

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I disagree with this law.

It discrminates against people due to age. It keeps the Ontario tradition of legislating common sense, its blatantly ridiculous and it furthers the agenda of zero alcohol while operating a motor vehicle.

Now lets look at this scenario, 20 year old kid, has a few the night before, has a blood alcohol level of .01 % gets stopped and charged. DOes this make sense to anyone?

Why can a 20 year old buy alcohol, vote, fight for our country and yet not have any common sense to be able to have one beer and drive.

Why do we need this legislation? Ask yourself why they are doing this. Why do we waste time on legislation like this? Why is this being implemented. Where are the stats to support this law? Ask yourself why Sheople!

p.s. I do not condone drinking and driving at all.

[02Sled]

Unfortunately for some people common sense isn't very common. I see sledders stop for lunch... kick back much more than one and then hop on their sled. Already being driven by the testosterone machismo of being out with the guys and not wanting to be seen as the "wuss" common sense gets left at home with the wife and kids.

Just like driving a car or boating, there should be zero alcohol as acceptable for any age, not just under 21. There is a direct correlation between your ability and judgement and the amount you have to drink. Unfotuantely the more you drink often you still think you are just fine. It's rare you find someone who is drunk who believes they are.

Wait until you get home to do the drinking.

[sledjunk]

I disagree with this law.

It discrminates against people due to age. It keeps the Ontario tradition of legislating common sense, its blatantly ridiculous and it furthers the agenda of zero alcohol while operating a motor vehicle.

Now lets look at this scenario, 20 year old kid, has a few the night before, has a blood alcohol level of .01 % gets stopped and charged. DOes this make sense to anyone?

Why can a 20 year old buy alcohol, vote, fight for our country and yet not have any common sense to be able to have one beer and drive.

Why do we need this legislation? Ask yourself why they are doing this. Why do we waste time on legislation like this? Why is this being implemented. Where are the stats to support this law? Ask yourself why Sheople!

p.s. I do not condone drinking and driving at all.

I agree with UTS (someone shoot me).

This is a knee jerk reaction to the three 'kids' who were killed near Lake Joseph a couple of years ago.  Think of it this way, we already have laws against .05% BAC and above.  The justification for this one is the disportionate number of deaths due to alcohol in this age group.  But, how many of those deaths were below, or even near the .05 that is already in place????

Just another example of redundant laws.  Now if they had increased the penalties for the existing laws, particularly for multiple offenses, they would have been doing something constructive.

That being said, I would not have an issue with a zero alcohol law for snowmobiling.  I do not agree with YC's implication that the drinking and riding occurs off trail.  I have seen a number of 'liquid lunches' consumed at establishments while sledding and there is often no lake in sight.  These groups, (and families) then head out on their sleds on the trails.  We can do better in this area!

But an age law?  It is an attack on a segment of our population that is not likely to have any real clout (political) or support (from the rest of the population who still view them as 'kids'.

 Rant over  :curse:

 

[UsedtoSkidoo]

Unfortunately for some people common sense isn't very common. I see sledders stop for lunch... kick back much more than one and then hop on their sled. Already being driven by the testosterone machismo of being out with the guys and not wanting to be seen as the "wuss" common sense gets left at home with the wife and kids.

Just like driving a car or boating, there should be zero alcohol as acceptable for any age, not just under 21. There is a direct correlation between your ability and judgement and the amount you have to drink. Unfotuantely the more you drink often you still think you are just fine. It's rare you find someone who is drunk who believes they are.

Wait until you get home to do the drinking.

Come on. Lets not generalise anymore. This law is hard fact. Gradually your and my life will be legislated away to nothing. Why cant I make my own descisions and then if its the wrong one I get punished?

I am a human being and so are my children. We are blessed with the inate ability to think and rationalise. Why cant I do that on my own? Yes there are limits bt frankly you cant legislate those out of existence.

Think on your own without the Government telling you what to do. Big brother was never what our forefathers had in mind and neither should we.

[ArcticCrusher]

I disagree with this law.

It discrminates against people due to age. It keeps the Ontario tradition of legislating common sense, its blatantly ridiculous and it furthers the agenda of zero alcohol while operating a motor vehicle.

Now lets look at this scenario, 20 year old kid, has a few the night before, has a blood alcohol level of .01 % gets stopped and charged. DOes this make sense to anyone?

Why can a 20 year old buy alcohol, vote, fight for our country and yet not have any common sense to be able to have one beer and drive.

Why do we need this legislation? Ask yourself why they are doing this. Why do we waste time on legislation like this? Why is this being implemented. Where are the stats to support this law? Ask yourself why Sheople!

p.s. I do not condone drinking and driving at all.

Why? Its simple, Kathleen Wynne is behind it. Although, rental car companies have been discriminating against under 25 drivers for decades. Just imagine if this law were legislated against all drivers regardless of age. The sales and tax revenue would decrease for any establishment that serves alchohol. Then, they will have to find another way to get back their shortfall. Way to go Fiberals.

[capster59]

I Disagree with the law as it is simply aged based. I dont agree with drinking and driving although I have been known to have one beer at lunch and still be able to find my way home without hitting anyone or anything. I get tired of the frickin big brother...now at home they want to control whether I am allowed to cut a tree ( I need Permission.!!!!!!) go stick it up yer...

I would agree with the new law if it pertained to all new drivers for a period of time not just cuz yer under 21,,(which I aint).

We used to have the best country in the world,,im getting worried we wont have that anymore with all the government intrusion into our lives.

[Wildbill]

I disagree with this law.

It discrminates against people due to age. It keeps the Ontario tradition of legislating common sense, its blatantly ridiculous and it furthers the agenda of zero alcohol while operating a motor vehicle.

Now lets look at this scenario, 20 year old kid, has a few the night before, has a blood alcohol level of .01 % gets stopped and charged. DOes this make sense to anyone?

Why can a 20 year old buy alcohol, vote, fight for our country and yet not have any common sense to be able to have one beer and drive.

Why do we need this legislation? Ask yourself why they are doing this. Why do we waste time on legislation like this? Why is this being implemented. Where are the stats to support this law? Ask yourself why Sheople!

p.s. I do not condone drinking and driving at all.

I agree with UTS (someone shoot me).

This is a knee jerk reaction to the three 'kids' who were killed near Lake Joseph a couple of years ago.  Think of it this way, we already have laws against .05% BAC and above.  The justification for this one is the disportionate number of deaths due to alcohol in this age group.  But, how many of those deaths were below, or even near the .05 that is already in place????

Just another example of redundant laws.  Now if they had increased the penalties for the existing laws, particularly for multiple offenses, they would have been doing something constructive.

That being said, I would not have an issue with a zero alcohol law for snowmobiling.  I do not agree with YC's implication that the drinking and riding occurs off trail.  I have seen a number of 'liquid lunches' consumed at establishments while sledding and there is often no lake in sight.  These groups, (and families) then head out on their sleds on the trails.  We can do better in this area!

But an age law?  It is an attack on a segment of our population that is not likely to have any real clout (political) or support (from the rest of the population who still view them as 'kids'.

 Rant over  :curse:

 

X2 Thank you UTS

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I Disagree with the law as it is simply aged based. I dont agree with drinking and driving although I have been known to have one beer at lunch and still be able to find my way home without hitting anyone or anything. I get tired of the frickin big brother...now at home they want to control whether I am allowed to cut a tree ( I need Permission.!!!!!!) go stick it up yer...

I would agree with the new law if it pertained to all new drivers for a period of time not just cuz yer under 21,,(which I aint).

We used to have the best country in the world,,im getting worried we wont have that anymore with all the government intrusion into our lives.

Speaking of, I owe you a beer. But not while we are driving. Wait we are both over 21, forget it then. We'll have it on the trails!

[SlowTouringGuy]

I agree with UTS (someone shoot me).

Rant over

This from someone who never had to worry about drinking and driving. When SJ was under 21 there were no cars.

[sledjunk]

I agree with UTS (someone shoot me).

Rant over  

This from someone who never had to worry about drinking and driving. When SJ was under 21 there were no cars.  

According to my daughter, we had to worry about dinosaurs.

What did you have to worry about before that? 

[skidooer]

There is a direct correlation between your ability and judgement and the amount you have to drink.

Correlation does not imply causation.

"79% of the alcohol-related crashes happened during hours of darkness, usually on weekends." (Source) From the same source, "The times of day with the highest number of drunk driving fatalities were midnight to 3 a.m. (28%), 9 p.m. to midnight (21%), and then 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. (16%)."

You will notice that the majority of the accidents happen late at night, at hours later than the average person goes to bed during the work week. What if it is the real reason is lack of sleep that is causing all of the accidents? Alcohol is related because the only businesses open at that time of day are drinking establishments, and therefore everyone who gets into the accidents will have been drinking. They would have otherwise been in bed by that hour.

I am not saying alcohol is not the cause, and should not be regulated as it pertains to driving. Alcohol obviously does affect the brain. But a lot of people are able to drink and drive all of their lives without any accidents of any sort, so it is not a completely clear cut case. Just because the media says drinking is the reason does not mean it is true. The media never tells the whole story. Let's see some real studies proving that it is, in fact, the alcohol and the alcohol alone that causes these accidents.

[sledjunk]

 The media never tells the whole story. Let's see some real studies proving that it is, in fact, the alcohol and the alcohol alone that causes these accidents.

You are correct and  there are usually multiple causes to any accident.  However, the interpretation of any statistics can be slanted to prove the hypothesis.  And the media only distributes what will sell.  

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

Interesting site, BTW.

[Canuck]

Spoke to my 20 year old son today about this.

He wonders if insurance rates will decrease for 20 year old males, now that even a sniff of alcohol is verboten.

Good question.

[i think 20 year olds are old enough to have make responsible choices. Wonder why we are moving towards the U.S. model. Old enough to enlist in the armed forces at 18, but government will limit many of your other choices. Want to boat? Pay $30 to a private company and answer a bunch of questions at a boat show. Want to shoot pellets at a pop can? Fogedda bout it. Stay 5 meters away or I'll arrest you, etc. etc. There was mutual respect between authority and teenagers when I was younger. Wonder why we need 'laws' instead of common sense today.]

[Faceman]

Interesting perspectives. Firstly I am strongly opposed to "Impaired Driving'. Notice I stated impaired instead of alcohol consumed.Impaired comes in many forms, alcohol, drugs, mental or physical state of mind, distractions etc. There are many 20 yr olds far more responsible than their parents, I see that all the time. One thing yet to be mentioned is when we refer to Judgement, it has many facets. We narrowly avoided a headon last Saturday when the young lady pulled out and passed us directly into oncoming traffic. At the next stop sign as I'm screaming at her she replied" I had lots of time". Depth perception maybe. I know that our eyes change at night and certain drivers have a hard time judging distance. If speed travelled, whether above or below the limit, plus distance travelled are greater than reflex reaction and time required to stop there is a problem.

Points about 'Big Brother" are so true but when will someone understand that you can't fix stupid. Stupid is as stupid does and alcohol does magnify "stupid" as we all too well know.

Education, break the cycle, teach that it's NOT OK to the point where it become socially unacceptable within the peer groups.

[Faceman]

Two Case Studies.

So. After reading and re-reading I did some digging. Here's two recent ones

Firstly : a good friends grandson. First time 18 yrs old backed into a ditch...Bad luck as the OPP arrived minutes later. Blew 130 on a Care and Control charge. Kid was good, my fault , thought was the most sober and would drive friends home....DUMB

Paid the piper.

Year or so later( not long ago) smokes his Jetta on wet roads, too fast rear ended another car and then into the guard rails.

Blew 95...Both time on a graduated licence.

Second happened 2pm this past Sunday.

Friend of the kids and a buddy (our cousin) seek out a rather large maple tree and pile of rocks just down the road from our place. The OPP are still trying to figure out how the kids lived but they did.

In both cases the two drivers suffered from the same two common syndromes:#1: We're just going around the corner

and #2: It won't happen to me!

Total misjudgement of speed and road conditions

Both have said that the laws did nothing to prevent as they both KNEW they were wrong (#1 is a bit thick, or was) and #2 , it was a matter of time...

How do we prevent stupid...They both just looked at me!

[SlowTouringGuy]

I'm sure pretty impressed with the way kids these days (at least my kids and the ones they hang with) are addressing the drinking and driving question.

I am amazed at how much their approach to this subject contrasts to the way "we' handled this in "our day". I must say, there is no reason to be proud of how we handled it. We drove drunk. Our friends drove drunk. "Everyone" (please note "") drove drunk. We all have horrid stories of how we got home. Fortunately, we are able to tell those stories. Many cannot.

Our kids, these days from my personal observation, are completely attuned to the issue. DD's are assigned and are seriously upheld. In Toronto, public transit is used without any hesitation. In smaller centres taxi-cabs are the preferred method of transportation. I've questioned the presence of a car in our driveway many times to be told that it's there because the driver expects to have a drink that evening. Good on them !

I think the last group of people that need this legislation is the fully aware "youngsters". Why not target men over 50 ? Of course, I think they are "youngsters", too.

[Faceman]

STG. Words so true... Lifetime member of the:God, just get me through this one and it will never happen again club....been there

Having said that. both of the above mentioned were part of the 'shoes at the front door group/Cars in the drive". Brain farts??

[02Sled]

The right to swing your fist ends at my nose. If I read you correctly you are suggesting that you know when you have had too much to drink to operate your car or your sled and if you are wrong then let you be punished and pay the price. Without any law in place saying you can't do this there is no punishment for you other than your own personal injury. However going back to swinging your fist. You may be operating a car, sled or boat that has the ability to punish me for your error in judgement or common sense by killing or maiming me. Sorry but if you can't make it through a day of sledding without having a few drinks then that is a problem in itself. Wait until you get home. It is not a generalization to see a significant number of sledders have liquid lunches then hit the trails. There are just far too many of these situations and it is typically (not always) a bunch of guys as a group.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

The right to swing your fist ends at my nose. If I read you correctly you are suggesting that you know when you have had too much to drink to operate your car or your sled and if you are wrong then let you be punished and pay the price. Without any law in place saying you can't do this there is no punishment for you other than your own personal injury. However going back to swinging your fist. You may be operating a car, sled or boat that has the ability to punish me for your error in judgement or common sense by killing or maiming me. Sorry but if you can't make it through a day of sledding without having a few drinks then that is a problem in itself. Wait until you get home. It is not a generalization to see a significant number of sledders have liquid lunches then hit the trails. There are just far too many of these situations and it is typically (not always) a bunch of guys as a group.

Facts man facts............lets see them and I will jump on the bandwagon.

This law is discriminatory and frankly under our laws illegal. Its also extremely prejudicial.

How can you say to a 20 year old that he/she can buy he beer but cant drink it. Its stupid and I hope to god that one day when you wake up and realise that all of our rights and freedoms have been legislated away that you can honestly say " I was wrong."

Think past your nose and what media biased reports tell you and understand what is happening here.

Ill give you one hint. CASH! Its easier to charge and forget than it is to prove and incarcerate. The police and the government are self fulfilling agencies. They must generate cash in order to survive and thrive. The role of the modern day police force is to generate cash under the guise of protecting us from ourselves. Well I tell you I dont need protecting from myself. Im ok thanks.

Lets just review:

Long weekend Blitzes- no longer allowed as they are deemed illegal

Street Racing- How in the hell does this make us safer?

.05- Blatant cash grab as it is illegal to be convicted before a trial

Think man think.

[Nutter]

I'm sure pretty impressed with the way kids these days (at least my kids and the ones they hang with) are addressing the drinking and driving question.

I am amazed at how much their approach to this subject contrasts to the way "we' handled this in "our day". I must say, there is no reason to be proud of how we handled it. We drove drunk. Our friends drove drunk. "Everyone" (please note "") drove drunk. We all have horrid stories of how we got home. Fortunately, we are able to tell those stories. Many cannot.

Our kids, these days from my personal observation, are completely attuned to the issue. DD's are assigned and are seriously upheld. In Toronto, public transit is used without any hesitation. In smaller centres taxi-cabs are the preferred method of transportation. I've questioned the presence of a car in our driveway many times to be told that it's there because the driver expects to have a drink that evening. Good on them !

I think the last group of people that need this legislation is the fully aware "youngsters". Why not target men over 50 ? Of course, I think they are "youngsters", too.

I wonder why that is, could it be the laws we instilled have changed how people think ? Back in the early 70's impaired was a ticket and ride home, and drunks were collecting innocent people on their windshields like bugs.

[skidooer]

It is not a generalization to see a significant number of sledders have liquid lunches then hit the trails.

Okay, what percentage of daytime snowmobile accidents are alcohol related?

You do not have to sell me on the idea of sober riding. The rush from the machine is all I need. However, stating something does not make it true. I honestly do not know if drinking and riding truly is dangerous, or if it is an external factor that comes along with the consumption of alcohol (see my previous post). Given how strongly you feel about the subject, you must have studied it in much more depth than I, and I welcome your findings.