Zero Alcohol

[Canuck]

"The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) issued a statement saying it welcomes Ontario's new Zero Alcohol Limit for drivers 21 and younger."

Was this on the agenda at last year's AGM?

I raise this because at Six Mile Lake, the Association requested greater police presence. It's become fine, ticket, warning; fine, ticket, warning (did you know peddleboats require a padal?; tickets for lack of ownership papers for a 1976 boat passed down from grandpa, etc.), and many are upset.

The analogy is, did OFSC have a mandate to issue a statement? Were they consulted? If so, were Directors asked for input before a statement was put out?

Has something happened, that we need all this protection?

This rant is from someone who avoided parts of Toronto this summer where others feared being arrested under a five metre law which did not exist; goes to the cottage where there are more police boats than cottage boats and is wondering whether to park a couple of sleds and simply go up north for extended trips instead of enduring the C trail enforcement gauntlet in Bracebridge (now armed with new and improved powers to give my under 21-aged children an extra look).

[Wildbill]

"The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) issued a statement saying it welcomes Ontario's new Zero Alcohol Limit for drivers 21 and younger."

Was this on the agenda at last year's AGM?

I raise this because at Six Mile Lake, the Association requested greater police presence. It's become fine, ticket, warning; fine, ticket, warning (did you know peddleboats require a padal?; tickets for lack of ownership papers for a 1976 boat passed down from grandpa, etc.), and many are upset.

The analogy is, did OFSC have a mandate to issue a statement? Were they consulted? If so, were Directors asked for input before a statement was put out?

Has something happened, that we need all this protection?

This rant is from someone who avoided parts of Toronto this summer where others feared being arrested under a five metre law which did not exist; goes to the cottage where there are more police boats than cottage boats and is wondering whether to park a couple of sleds and simply go up north for extended trips instead of enduring the C trail enforcement gauntlet in Bracebridge (now armed with new and improved powers to give my under 21-aged children an extra look).

All good points . Especially when the law is because a rich well connected youngster did not obey the existing laws. Little Mcguinty will leave an unforgetable nanny state.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

"The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) issued a statement saying it welcomes Ontario's new Zero Alcohol Limit for drivers 21 and younger."

Was this on the agenda at last year's AGM?

I raise this because at Six Mile Lake, the Association requested greater police presence. It's become fine, ticket, warning; fine, ticket, warning (did you know peddleboats require a padal?; tickets for lack of ownership papers for a 1976 boat passed down from grandpa, etc.), and many are upset.

The analogy is, did OFSC have a mandate to issue a statement? Were they consulted? If so, were Directors asked for input before a statement was put out?

Has something happened, that we need all this protection?

This rant is from someone who avoided parts of Toronto this summer where others feared being arrested under a five metre law which did not exist; goes to the cottage where there are more police boats than cottage boats and is wondering whether to park a couple of sleds and simply go up north for extended trips instead of enduring the C trail enforcement gauntlet in Bracebridge (now armed with new and improved powers to give my under 21-aged children an extra look).

All good points . Especially when the law is because a rich well connected youngster did not obey the existing laws. Little Mcguinty will leave an unforgetable nanny state.

And the majority of you ontarians voted for him............

Well said Canuck. I stopped dropping in Gravenhurst and riding for that very reason. Was ridiculous.

[Wildbill]

"The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) issued a statement saying it welcomes Ontario's new Zero Alcohol Limit for drivers 21 and younger."

Was this on the agenda at last year's AGM?

I raise this because at Six Mile Lake, the Association requested greater police presence. It's become fine, ticket, warning; fine, ticket, warning (did you know peddleboats require a padal?; tickets for lack of ownership papers for a 1976 boat passed down from grandpa, etc.), and many are upset.

The analogy is, did OFSC have a mandate to issue a statement? Were they consulted? If so, were Directors asked for input before a statement was put out?

Has something happened, that we need all this protection?

This rant is from someone who avoided parts of Toronto this summer where others feared being arrested under a five metre law which did not exist; goes to the cottage where there are more police boats than cottage boats and is wondering whether to park a couple of sleds and simply go up north for extended trips instead of enduring the C trail enforcement gauntlet in Bracebridge (now armed with new and improved powers to give my under 21-aged children an extra look).

All good points . Especially when the law is because a rich well connected youngster did not obey the existing laws. Little Mcguinty will leave an unforgetable nanny state.

And the majority of you ontarians voted for him............

Well said Canuck. I stopped dropping in Gravenhurst and riding for that very reason. Was ridiculous.

|For the record I NEVER VOTED for adolf Mcguinty

[Domino]

Impaired driving (Faceman's definition is absolutely correct) is a problem that has faced us for many years. We have more severe punishment today then we did years ago.

I was involved for years in the identification and prosecution of impaired drivers. I have to say that the vast majority of impaired drivers that I witnessed were not 21 and under. For the most part they were middle aged males. Only my personal observations, not a statistic, just the way it was.

The fact is, that there are many younger snowmobilers and this could skew the results. Older snowmobilers generally have more respect for the trails. I am sure there are younger snowmobilers that also have this same level of respect.

Society continues to paint with a broad brush.....

[sledjunk]

I'm sure pretty impressed with the way kids these days (at least my kids and the ones they hang with) are addressing the drinking and driving question.  

I am amazed at how much their approach to this subject contrasts to the way "we' handled this in "our day".  I must say, there is no reason to be proud of how we handled it. We drove drunk. Our friends drove drunk. "Everyone" (please note "") drove drunk. We all have horrid stories of how we got home. Fortunately, we are able to tell those stories.  Many cannot.  

Our kids, these days from my personal observation, are completely attuned to the issue. DD's are assigned and are seriously upheld. In Toronto, public transit is used without any hesitation. In smaller centres taxi-cabs are the preferred method of transportation.  I've questioned the presence of a car in our driveway many times to be told that it's there because the driver expects to have a drink that evening.  Good on them !

I think the last group of people that need this legislation is the fully aware "youngsters". Why not target men over 50 ?  Of course, I think they are "youngsters", too.  

I wonder why that is, could it be the laws we instilled have changed how people think ? Back in the early 70's impaired was a ticket and ride home, and drunks were collecting innocent people on their windshields like bugs.

:umno:The laws were in place even in the early '70's.  Public perception and condemnation wasn't.  Through the change of attitude of the general populace, this became less acceptable.  I can remember when it was almost a badge of honour for people to have had an impaired charge.

This change of attitude is what has been passed on to (and thankfully accepted for the most part by) the younger generation.  Peer pressure is, and has always been, a more powerful force when dealing with behaviour modification than simply imposing a new law.

[02Sled]

It is not a generalization to see a significant number of sledders have liquid lunches then hit the trails.

Okay, what percentage of daytime snowmobile accidents are alcohol related?

You do not have to sell me on the idea of sober riding. The rush from the machine is all I need. However, stating something does not make it true. I honestly do not know if drinking and riding truly is dangerous, or if it is an external factor that comes along with the consumption of alcohol (see my previous post). Given how strongly you feel about the subject, you must have studied it in much more depth than I, and I welcome your findings.

What percentage of daytime snowmobile accidents are alcohol related? I truly don't know. I do know that it has been proven time and time again that alcohol consumption impairs ones ability, reducing reaction times and other key factors to operating any vehicle, car, boat or sled. It is also known that it impacts varying people in varying degrees at varying levels but does affect everyone. I disagree with the law saying it applies to those 21 and under. I believe it should apply to everyone period. Drinking and operating a piece of equipment that can kill not only yourself but others as well should not be allowed. As for the exact numbers who have liquid lunches... no I didn't do head counts. As an illustration however I do know that I went for a ride on the Seguin Trail last winter. We stopped at a nice little town for lunch the name of which I can't remember. We had two choices right across the road from each other. One was the local watering hole the other a small restaurant/general store without a liquor licence. The watering hole was absolutely packed. You can't tell me everyone was there for the outstanding food. The food at the restaurant was excellent by the way. We did look in the other place on the way out and did see a significant number of tables of people with far more beverages on the table than people so they weren't just having one. And no I didn't count and make notes but all you have to do is have eyes to be able to see the evidence.

I have no objection to people drinking. Just do it in the right places at the right times. Just before you get on your sled is not the right time.

There is an ad on radio right now where the guys are talking about having a dring before they head out on the boat. The daughter asks... dad you always say you would never drink and drive... how is drinking and boating different? How is drinking and sledding different.

[02Sled]

"The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) issued a statement saying it welcomes Ontario's new Zero Alcohol Limit for drivers 21 and younger."

Was this on the agenda at last year's AGM?

I raise this because at Six Mile Lake, the Association requested greater police presence. It's become fine, ticket, warning; fine, ticket, warning (did you know peddleboats require a padal?; tickets for lack of ownership papers for a 1976 boat passed down from grandpa, etc.), and many are upset.

The analogy is, did OFSC have a mandate to issue a statement? Were they consulted? If so, were Directors asked for input before a statement was put out?

Has something happened, that we need all this protection?

This rant is from someone who avoided parts of Toronto this summer where others feared being arrested under a five metre law which did not exist; goes to the cottage where there are more police boats than cottage boats and is wondering whether to park a couple of sleds and simply go up north for extended trips instead of enduring the C trail enforcement gauntlet in Bracebridge (now armed with new and improved powers to give my under 21-aged children an extra look).

Some very valid points and yes we can be regulated to death. There are some laws in place which I totaly agree with and others which are from my perspective just plain stupid. Did you know a wind surfer requires a paddle and even if you are wearing a wet suit which makes you float like a cork you need a PFD. The ownership for a boat is one that is somewhat silly the way it is written and applied. You need to have the original. Not just a copy. I just love having to keep the 8.5 X 11 inch original for my little 14 foot aluminum boat with me. Not sure where I am supposed to keep it and hopefully it doesn't get wet since it is the original and not a copy.

There is also a problem with some of those who enforce the laws and don't know how to do so correctly and understand them properly... at least for boats. The Transport Canada reps at the Cottage Life show acknowledged this.

I was charged for not having current flares on my boat on Glouchester Pool. I pointed out to the officer in the safe boating guide that I was exempt from the requirement because I needed to be more than one nautical mile from shore and showed him the reference in the guide. He correctly stated the ability to be more than one nautical mile from shore and that on that body of water I could. I didn't have my charts with me but took them to court and asked him to show me where I could be and he wasn't able to. The charge was thrown out but it cost me a drive from Toronto to Orillia and a day.

But hen there are also laws that protect me from others such as drinking and driving anything that can kill me. Those I appreciate. Not sure if you saw the pictures of the boating accident in B.C. Houseboat and about a 20 foot bowrider. The bowrider ran head on into the houseboat launching and landing inside the houseboat killing the driver and 5 others badly injured. The driver of the bowrider was above the legal alcohol limits.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

No one is disputing that drinking and driving is wrong. What is wrong is targeting a group based on age/sex or religion is wrong. That is what is wrong with this law.

[Canuck]

Some good observations, 02Sled. We enjoy stopping at the The General Store in Sprucedale.

As for the Under 21 law - will it now extend to skiing, other high speed activities?

I can't for a minute believe that the Ontario ski industry would support that initiative. Skiing involves just as much, if not more, dexterity and decision making as sledding.

They seem to recognize the inate ability of young people to make correct decisions, by and large. Will a few make poor decisions. Yes. Should the whole youth category be tarred with the same brush? No.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

Some good observations, 02Sled. We enjoy stopping at the The General Store in Sprucedale.

As for the Under 21 law - will it now extend to skiing, other high speed activities?

I can't for a minute believe that the Ontario ski industry would support that initiative. Skiing involves just as much, if not more, dexterity and decision making as sledding.

They seem to recognize the inate ability of young people to make correct decisions, by and large. Will a few make poor decisions. Yes. Should the whole youth category be tarred with the same brush? No.

That wont generate as much tickety/fine revenue canuck.

You know what the funny thing is, is that, I have learned many things and the lessons that have stuck with me the most are the ones that cost me money or were learned by a mistake I made.

[Canuck]

You know what the funny thing is, is that, I have learned many things and the lessons that have stuck with me the most are the ones that cost me money or were learned by a mistake I made.

What was her name? :poke:

[UsedtoSkidoo]

You know what the funny thing is, is that, I have learned many things and the lessons that have stuck with me the most are the ones that cost me money or were learned by a mistake I made.

What was her name? :poke:

Which one?

[Wildbill]

This is an American version of how freedoms are being taken away . But it does very much hold true in Adolph Mcguinty's Ontario

http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates38.html

[SlowTouringGuy]

This is an American version of how freedoms are being taken away . But it does very much hold true in Adolph Mcguinty's Ontario

http://www.lewrockwe...es/yates38.html

I prefer my frogs fricassed.

[skidooer]

I do know that it has been proven time and time again that alcohol consumption impairs ones ability, reducing reaction times and other key factors to operating any vehicle, car, boat or sled. It is also known that it impacts varying people in varying degrees at varying levels but does affect everyone.

I do not disagree, but I would still like to read the studies. Saying you know that studies exist does not help. You cannot make absolute conclusions about any topic without understanding all of the data. A gut feeling is not enough here.

p.s. if you happen to stumble upon the section of the law that states aftermarket snowmobile mufflers are illegal, please include it in your reply. I am still waiting on someone to uncover that one.

[cehyoopers]

Equipment requirements

Muffler in working order

18. (1) No person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle unless it is equipped with a muffler in good working order and in constant operation and no person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle which has a muffler cut-out, straight exhaust, gutted muffler, hollywood muffler, by-pass or similar device upon the motorized snow vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44, s. 18 (1).

Removing or modifying any component

(2) No person shall drive or permit to be driven any motorized snow vehicle upon which any component or device, which was required under the provisions of the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) at the time that the motorized snow vehicle was manufactured or imported into Canada, has been removed, modified or rendered inoperative. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44, s. 18 (2).

[skidooer]

Yeah, neither of those sections outlaw aftermarket mufflers. The former does cover devices that appear to be mufflers, but not real mufflers. For the latter, I have read the MVSA and cannot find any reference to muffler. Thanks for playing though.

[kyzer]

Welcome to communist Canada or soon to be. Instead of really nailing the people causing the problems just make everyone suffer. This country has gone to the shits. From the boat licence crap to people losing there driving license while being drunk in a canoe, paddle boat or floating dock. Yes people make mistakes and should be punished. People have to be responsible for their own actions. If the research shows an increase of people from the age of 19 to 21 are driving under the influence then make a stiffer penality for the arseholes abusing the law!!!!Take there licence for 5 years with a $5000 fine. Thats 5 years this person has to think about what they did.If that don't work make it 10 years. Don't make the responsible people suffer..Wonder what stupid laws my grandchildren will have to live with !! Whats next??? We all know there are some really stupid people out there..Same goes for our trails, know your limits, control your speed, and alcohol consumption...

[Canuck]

If the research shows an increase of people from the age of 19 to 21 are driving under the influence then make a stiffer penality for the arseholes abusing the law!!!!Take there licence for 5 years with a $5000 fine. Thats 5 years this person has to think about what they did.If that don't work make it 10 years. Don't make the responsible people suffer..

Bang on.

There's a concept called the tipping point. How much BS can folks take before enough is enough.

[cehyoopers]

this is not only a good law,it is a great law,,,,,,,

[scrummage]

I'm surprised "Cliff" didn't take this opportunity to expound on the "Buffalo Theory" of alcohol consumption. The theory postulates that as in the Buffalo herd where only the weakest and slowest animals fall prey to wolves and humnters, alcohol destroys only the weakest and slowest brain cells. This is why you feel smarter after a few drinks. And, unfortunately, why you think you're OK to drive your sled.

[skidooer]

this is not only a good law,it is a great law,,,,,,,

If it is a great law, why does it only apply to those of a certain age? What makes a driver capable of safely maneuvering a vehicle with a BAC greater than zero on their 21st birthday? I am all for making the roads safer. If <0.05 BAC is still honest to goodness unsafe, make it illegal for everyone.

[cehyoopers]

this is not only a good law,it is a great law,,,,,,,

If it is a great law, why does it only apply to those of a certain age? What makes a driver capable of safely maneuvering a vehicle with a BAC greater than zero on their 21st birthday? I am all for making the roads safer. If <0.05 BAC is still honest to goodness unsafe, make it illegal for everyone.

think of the law as targeting a very important group of people,the future,an age group that is plaqued with high statistics for accidents,,,us,not so much,,,

[UsedtoSkidoo]

this is not only a good law,it is a great law,,,,,,,

If it is a great law, why does it only apply to those of a certain age? What makes a driver capable of safely maneuvering a vehicle with a BAC greater than zero on their 21st birthday? I am all for making the roads safer. If <0.05 BAC is still honest to goodness unsafe, make it illegal for everyone.

think of the law as targeting a very important group of people,the future,an age group that is plaqued with high statistics for accidents,,,us,not so much,,,

WHere are the facts to back this law up!