kyzer Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I like the debates because it makes me think of a certain topic in another way. When I read other posts,I see where he/she is coming from I might not agree but atleast i can understand it from another perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crewchief47 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 People express themselves here. The only bannings have been people attacking others in a malicious way. I agree, we are not freedom sledder, for that I am thankful. However we are not Dootalk either which has been accused of over moderation (From what I have read, I like Dootalk personally). I think if we all keep in mind that there are young sledders that read this site, and post accordingly, a good debate, even a heated good debate is welcomed and informative. I think this is the first time I've seen Dootalk and over moderation in the same sentence..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 oh,another thing I just remembered in Michigan,,,,sometimers kicked in for a bit,,,If you choose to desinate your land "for recreational use" you get a huge property tax break,,,,plus this coalition helps a lot,,,,http://www.sharetrails.org/ what has happened in some areas,this group http://www.sierraclub.org/ buys a huge track of land and have money behind them so they care less about paying full property taxes.But in some areas the Blue Ribbon coalition have gotten permission to use a trail portion of land from them.I believe that is the outcome from oustside pressure,ie,business owners etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reved Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I think this is the first time I've seen Dootalk and over moderation in the same sentence..... That's Evil's Dooing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javaman1891 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I think permit fees have passed the tipping point of diminishing returns. Every increase results in fewer sales and lower revenue. I own 70 acres of my own and ride only local trails - mostly just to get from house to house. I derive no benefit from the other 42,975 km of trails. Every increase makes me more inclined to confine my sledding to the racecourses my friends and I set up on our own lands, and just truck our sleds between them when the roads are dry. I also wonder how much the damage to trails by many of our ATV brothers and the expensive lobbying efforts of their groups are contributing to increased trail permit costs. There are NO legal ATV trails where I live, but every year the sled trails are totally trashed by them. The road allowance by my land and the forced road across my neighbour's property are both part of a sled trail, but are rendered impassible, even on foot, for most of the year by mudholers, and are left dangerously rough for sleds and grooming equipment in the winter. The 4WD pickup crowd does even more damage when they go through - and they don't pay fees to anyone. Fun is fun, but this is criminal, and I suspect is adding substantially to sled permit fees. Please correct me with the facts if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think permit fees have passed the tipping point of diminishing returns. Every increase results in fewer sales and lower revenue. I own 70 acres of my own and ride only local trails - mostly just to get from house to house. I derive no benefit from the other 42,975 km of trails. Every increase makes me more inclined to confine my sledding to the racecourses my friends and I set up on our own lands, and just truck our sleds between them when the roads are dry. I also wonder how much the damage to trails by many of our ATV brothers and the expensive lobbying efforts of their groups are contributing to increased trail permit costs. There are NO legal ATV trails where I live, but every year the sled trails are totally trashed by them. The road allowance by my land and the forced road across my neighbour's property are both part of a sled trail, but are rendered impassible, even on foot, for most of the year by mudholers, and are left dangerously rough for sleds and grooming equipment in the winter. The 4WD pickup crowd does even more damage when they go through - and they don't pay fees to anyone. Fun is fun, but this is criminal, and I suspect is adding substantially to sled permit fees. Please correct me with the facts if I am wrong. I am of the same mind set as you. I have an earlier post regarding a friend of mine being yelled at on his own property and he and his family scrambling to avoid being run down by ATV's. I have seen the knee deep ruts in his "back yard". He got tired of spending days trying to level this out with his tractor each year. Even though he locks the gates they keep cutting the locks and they had the nerve to complain to him that some jerk keeps locking the gates so they now travel with bolt cutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think permit fees have passed the tipping point of diminishing returns. Every increase results in fewer sales and lower revenue. I own 70 acres of my own and ride only local trails - mostly just to get from house to house. I derive no benefit from the other 42,975 km of trails. Every increase makes me more inclined to confine my sledding to the racecourses my friends and I set up on our own lands, and just truck our sleds between them when the roads are dry. I also wonder how much the damage to trails by many of our ATV brothers and the expensive lobbying efforts of their groups are contributing to increased trail permit costs. There are NO legal ATV trails where I live, but every year the sled trails are totally trashed by them. The road allowance by my land and the forced road across my neighbour's property are both part of a sled trail, but are rendered impassible, even on foot, for most of the year by mudholers, and are left dangerously rough for sleds and grooming equipment in the winter. The 4WD pickup crowd does even more damage when they go through - and they don't pay fees to anyone. Fun is fun, but this is criminal, and I suspect is adding substantially to sled permit fees. Please correct me with the facts if I am wrong. I am of the same mind set as you. I have an earlier post regarding a friend of mine being yelled at on his own property and he and his family scrambling to avoid being run down by ATV's. I have seen the knee deep ruts in his "back yard". He got tired of spending days trying to level this out with his tractor each year. Even though he locks the gates they keep cutting the locks and they had the nerve to complain to him that some jerk keeps locking the gates so they now travel with bolt cutters. I had ATVs and I sold them. I will say this, Sledders have a lot of class for the most part. I met many responsible snowmobilers like 14Snow, Irreverent, Good & Evil, EasyRider, Virer, Canuck, Leprechaun and some others that may lack class but are still a lot of fun like STG, UTS, LMV (interesting as I type I'm seeing a pattern here of those who's names are three letter acronyms ). I know there are many ATV'ers that are responsible, however that seems to be the minority. I do not personally have a long history of snowmobiling so I could have missed the yahoo times for snowmobiling. I would assume that if I had experienced snowmobilers 4 years ago the same as I experienced ATVing 2 years ago, I would not be sledding today. If I was a landowner and experienced a-holes like 02sled's friend, I would prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. They may even find an empty clothesline or two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think permit fees have passed the tipping point of diminishing returns. Every increase results in fewer sales and lower revenue. I own 70 acres of my own and ride only local trails - mostly just to get from house to house. I derive no benefit from the other 42,975 km of trails. Every increase makes me more inclined to confine my sledding to the racecourses my friends and I set up on our own lands, and just truck our sleds between them when the roads are dry. I also wonder how much the damage to trails by many of our ATV brothers and the expensive lobbying efforts of their groups are contributing to increased trail permit costs. There are NO legal ATV trails where I live, but every year the sled trails are totally trashed by them. The road allowance by my land and the forced road across my neighbour's property are both part of a sled trail, but are rendered impassible, even on foot, for most of the year by mudholers, and are left dangerously rough for sleds and grooming equipment in the winter. The 4WD pickup crowd does even more damage when they go through - and they don't pay fees to anyone. Fun is fun, but this is criminal, and I suspect is adding substantially to sled permit fees. Please correct me with the facts if I am wrong. I am of the same mind set as you. I have an earlier post regarding a friend of mine being yelled at on his own property and he and his family scrambling to avoid being run down by ATV's. I have seen the knee deep ruts in his "back yard". He got tired of spending days trying to level this out with his tractor each year. Even though he locks the gates they keep cutting the locks and they had the nerve to complain to him that some jerk keeps locking the gates so they now travel with bolt cutters. I had ATVs and I sold them. I will say this, Sledders have a lot of class for the most part. I met many responsible snowmobilers like 14Snow, Irreverent, Good & Evil, EasyRider, Virer, Canuck, Leprechaun and some others that may lack class but are still a lot of fun like STG, UTS, LMV (interesting as I type I'm seeing a pattern here of those who's names are three letter acronyms ). I know there are many ATV'ers that are responsible, however that seems to be the minority. I do not personally have a long history of snowmobiling so I could have missed the yahoo times for snowmobiling. I would assume that if I had experienced snowmobilers 4 years ago the same as I experienced ATVing 2 years ago, I would not be sledding today. If I was a landowner and experienced a-holes like 02sled's friend, I would prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. They may even find an empty clothesline or two Trust me Sledding went through its yahoo years and I think is just now coming out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Trust me Sledding went through its yahoo years and I think is just now coming out of them. I suspected. We have to hope that the ATV community grows up before we lose all of our private land trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Trust me Sledding went through its yahoo years and I think is just now coming out of them. I suspected. We have to hope that the ATV community grows up before we lose all of our private land trails. I sure hope you are right... I will be guardedly optimistic but when I run across ATV'ers that go "mudding" and that is their main goal I wonder. I can't see these people changing. So often people are influenced by what they see on TV and I see on Dirt Trax for example them showing people up to the seats buried in mud and how wonderful the experience is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Trust me Sledding went through its yahoo years and I think is just now coming out of them. I suspected. We have to hope that the ATV community grows up before we lose all of our private land trails. I sure hope so,one of our local clubs got a big problem,one of there land owner's have said NO more due to the ATV's,he owns 2 farm's that the OFSC trails crossed,200 arces on the one and 300 on the other,means alot of road/ditch running unfortunately that's if the club wants to put the trail in,unfortunately it will cut of two small sled friendly towns that have alot of peeps riding from there garage if the club decides not to put the trail in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I think permit fees have passed the tipping point of diminishing returns. Every increase results in fewer sales and lower revenue. I own 70 acres of my own and ride only local trails - mostly just to get from house to house. I derive no benefit from the other 42,975 km of trails. Every increase makes me more inclined to confine my sledding to the racecourses my friends and I set up on our own lands, and just truck our sleds between them when the roads are dry. I also wonder how much the damage to trails by many of our ATV brothers and the expensive lobbying efforts of their groups are contributing to increased trail permit costs. There are NO legal ATV trails where I live, but every year the sled trails are totally trashed by them. The road allowance by my land and the forced road across my neighbour's property are both part of a sled trail, but are rendered impassible, even on foot, for most of the year by mudholers, and are left dangerously rough for sleds and grooming equipment in the winter. The 4WD pickup crowd does even more damage when they go through - and they don't pay fees to anyone. Fun is fun, but this is criminal, and I suspect is adding substantially to sled permit fees. Please correct me with the facts if I am wrong. I am of the same mind set as you. I have an earlier post regarding a friend of mine being yelled at on his own property and he and his family scrambling to avoid being run down by ATV's. I have seen the knee deep ruts in his "back yard". He got tired of spending days trying to level this out with his tractor each year. Even though he locks the gates they keep cutting the locks and they had the nerve to complain to him that some jerk keeps locking the gates so they now travel with bolt cutters. I had ATVs and I sold them. I will say this, Sledders have a lot of class for the most part. I met many responsible snowmobilers like 14Snow, Irreverent, Good & Evil, EasyRider, Virer, Canuck, Leprechaun and some others that may lack class but are still a lot of fun like STG, UTS, LMV (interesting as I type I'm seeing a pattern here of those who's names are three letter acronyms ). I know there are many ATV'ers that are responsible, however that seems to be the minority. I do not personally have a long history of snowmobiling so I could have missed the yahoo times for snowmobiling. I would assume that if I had experienced snowmobilers 4 years ago the same as I experienced ATVing 2 years ago, I would not be sledding today. If I was a landowner and experienced a-holes like 02sled's friend, I would prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. They may even find an empty clothesline or two Trust me Sledding went through its yahoo years and I think is just now coming out of them. clubs and laws have been a huge reason for this,,,,most of the a-holes were trespasses,,,,no permits and no club involvement.A lot of eduacation has turned this around.But,,,,,there is a few around,no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I think permit fees have passed the tipping point of diminishing returns. Every increase results in fewer sales and lower revenue. I own 70 acres of my own and ride only local trails - mostly just to get from house to house. I derive no benefit from the other 42,975 km of trails. Every increase makes me more inclined to confine my sledding to the racecourses my friends and I set up on our own lands, and just truck our sleds between them when the roads are dry. I also wonder how much the damage to trails by many of our ATV brothers and the expensive lobbying efforts of their groups are contributing to increased trail permit costs. There are NO legal ATV trails where I live, but every year the sled trails are totally trashed by them. The road allowance by my land and the forced road across my neighbour's property are both part of a sled trail, but are rendered impassible, even on foot, for most of the year by mudholers, and are left dangerously rough for sleds and grooming equipment in the winter. The 4WD pickup crowd does even more damage when they go through - and they don't pay fees to anyone. Fun is fun, but this is criminal, and I suspect is adding substantially to sled permit fees. Please correct me with the facts if I am wrong. I am of the same mind set as you. I have an earlier post regarding a friend of mine being yelled at on his own property and he and his family scrambling to avoid being run down by ATV's. I have seen the knee deep ruts in his "back yard". He got tired of spending days trying to level this out with his tractor each year. Even though he locks the gates they keep cutting the locks and they had the nerve to complain to him that some jerk keeps locking the gates so they now travel with bolt cutters. I had ATVs and I sold them. I will say this, Sledders have a lot of class for the most part. I met many responsible snowmobilers like 14Snow, Irreverent, Good & Evil, EasyRider, Virer, Canuck, Leprechaun and some others that may lack class but are still a lot of fun like STG, UTS, LMV (interesting as I type I'm seeing a pattern here of those who's names are three letter acronyms ). I know there are many ATV'ers that are responsible, however that seems to be the minority. I do not personally have a long history of snowmobiling so I could have missed the yahoo times for snowmobiling. I would assume that if I had experienced snowmobilers 4 years ago the same as I experienced ATVing 2 years ago, I would not be sledding today. If I was a landowner and experienced a-holes like 02sled's friend, I would prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. They may even find an empty clothesline or two Trust me Sledding went through its yahoo years and I think is just now coming out of them. clubs and laws have been a huge reason for this,,,,most of the a-holes were trespasses,,,,no permits and no club involvement.A lot of eduacation has turned this around.But,,,,,there is a few around,no doubt. There are still plenty of A-hole sledders around too. Trust me. One almost ran head on into my wife and I last winter. There is also moron ATV riders too. One problem that I see is that while the sledding industry is okay, the ATV industry is booming outselling sleds six to one in some areas. The root of the problem lies in that fact that there is just not enough properly set up legal ATV trails around yet and the clubs that are out there are also not growing enough to meet the demand. Plus the ATV season for riding is exponentially greater than the sledig season so there is an infinite amount more exposure. In the Haliburton area the ATV and HCSA have several shared initiatives such as trail maintenance, clean up, brushing, bridge construction and the list goes on and on. This is crucial for both powersports to survive! The townships have passed and amended by laws to allow road running with some restrictions and limitations. This has reduced property damage and trespassing greatly, it still happens though. As trails develop for these markets the issues of trail damage and rider responsibility will improve. It starts with a good club and organization, partnerships and getting the word out. Every year I see the ATV trail system expand, but there are no plans for any new snowmobile trails in the Haliburton area. In fact some that have been temporarily closed are never going to reopen. The bottom line is that whatever you choose as your preference be it ATV or sledding, there is a process to follow. Insurance, permits, validation stickers, and above all responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 FYI, 2009-10 Quebec Snowmobile Permits (including mandatory liability insurance) 235 $ for an annual trail permit purchased on or before December 9, 2009 ($285 after that date) 350 $ for an annual trail permit sold on trail* 150 $ for an annual trail permit for antique snowmobiles (1989 and older) 175 $ for a 7-day trail permit 90 $ for a 3-day trail permit (day passes no longer sold) Like many others have noted, sure would be nice to have liability insurance included with our trail permit. [not knocking OFSC - and suspect that this has come up before, so they may studied it] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 FYI,2009-10 Quebec Snowmobile Permits (including mandatory liability insurance) 235 $ for an annual trail permit purchased on or before December 9, 2009 ($285 after that date) 350 $ for an annual trail permit sold on trail* 150 $ for an annual trail permit for antique snowmobiles (1989 and older) 175 $ for a 7-day trail permit 90 $ for a 3-day trail permit (day passes no longer sold) Like many others have noted, sure would be nice to have liability insurance included with our trail permit. [not knocking OFSC - and suspect that this has come up before, so they may studied it] Keep in mind that in PQ the annual val tag cost $73.00, here in Ontario we only pay $15 in southern Ont and $0.00 in northern Ont, and PQ's liability insurance is just that liabilty only ...... no coverage for your sled at all, no collision, no fire, no theft, and that liablity is only for $500,000.... wouldn't catch me riding or driving anything on public trails or roads with only $500k in liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 FYI,2009-10 Quebec Snowmobile Permits (including mandatory liability insurance) 235 $ for an annual trail permit purchased on or before December 9, 2009 ($285 after that date) 350 $ for an annual trail permit sold on trail* 150 $ for an annual trail permit for antique snowmobiles (1989 and older) 175 $ for a 7-day trail permit 90 $ for a 3-day trail permit (day passes no longer sold) Like many others have noted, sure would be nice to have liability insurance included with our trail permit. [not knocking OFSC - and suspect that this has come up before, so they may studied it] Keep in mind that in PQ the annual val tag cost $73.00, here in Ontario we only pay $15 in southern Ont and $0.00 in northern Ont, and PQ's liability insurance is just that liabilty only ...... no coverage for your sled at all, no collision, no fire, no theft, and that liablity is only for $500,000.... wouldn't catch me riding or driving anything on public trails or roads with only $500k in liability. Good idea we have seen you drive :poke: Seriously if we had the same type of legislation in place that Quebec does that limits liability insurance would not be as expensive . Anyone remember protect our volunteers ? yet another good initiative lost well maybe not lost but definitly in need of our help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 FYI,2009-10 Quebec Snowmobile Permits (including mandatory liability insurance) 235 $ for an annual trail permit purchased on or before December 9, 2009 ($285 after that date) 350 $ for an annual trail permit sold on trail* 150 $ for an annual trail permit for antique snowmobiles (1989 and older) 175 $ for a 7-day trail permit 90 $ for a 3-day trail permit (day passes no longer sold) Like many others have noted, sure would be nice to have liability insurance included with our trail permit. [not knocking OFSC - and suspect that this has come up before, so they may studied it] You register your sled here and it has automatic insurance like in Quebec its like $40 for the registration and you get the $200,00 liability, but of course you can go up to $2million liabilty but that is extra as is the $100permit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 ... and that liablity is only for $500,000.... That's because the Quebec laws have limited the liability claims. To cover for more than the limit is a waste of premium dollars if the court will not find damages in excess of the established limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 ... and that liablity is only for $500,000.... That's because the Quebec laws have limited the liability claims. To cover for more than the limit is a waste of premium dollars if the court will not find damages in excess of the established limit. So what drives our costs up seems to be a lack of leadership from Dalton ! Imagine that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 ... and that liablity is only for $500,000.... That's because the Quebec laws have limited the liability claims. To cover for more than the limit is a waste of premium dollars if the court will not find damages in excess of the established limit. So what drives our costs up seems to be a lack of leadership from Dalton ! Imagine that ! Come on now... be fair our fearless leader or for those who follow Dilbert - the pointy haired boss... has lead us into a huge deficit, keeps on spending and told the GTA don't worry. If there is a defecit for the PanAm Games the province will take care of it. aka you and me. Now that is what I call leadership! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I think this is the first time I've seen Dootalk and over moderation in the same sentence..... That's Evil's Dooing Na, I hardly have time to moderate anywhere or anybody!! We are a little more lenient here on OC compared to dootalk. I have to admit that. However, there are almost 65000 members on dootalk, that's a huge crowd to moderate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerry Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Without going into a long winded answer justifying the cost I'll simply say buy it in October and when the trails are ready in January you just gotta get out there and ride.I don't even think about the cost as it's paid months before I ride,same as my insurance. Kerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Being an analytical person by nature the rationalization comes easy. I would look at typically a minimum of 8 weekend X 2 days X 7 hours = 112 hours add two mid week escapes from the office to ride with the local retirees on a Wednesday = 126 hours $200.00 / 126 hours = $1.58 and hour... what can you get for that. The cost of the sled and fuel are incidental. It's like the fisherman.... cost per pound of fish when you factor in all the gear, boat and fuel. 126 hours on a sled and the smiles = priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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