sledjunk Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Sounds like MOTS might end up being LOTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Our groomer operators are not paid and I believe only 1 club in our district has paid operators. Would you think some of these Operators would want to be paid if their Club does not receive any financial credit for their hours grooming? In my opinion, once we move to District grooming then everyone should receive equal treatment. Considering that there will very likely be more hours put on the remaining groomers to cover more trail kilometres then many Volunteers will probably say that is not what I signed up for and you better find someone else to operate on that schedule. Paid Operators will likely start to be the norm in most Districts. My Question is whether this increasing cost is being taken into account and of course and more importantly, where is the money coming from? Glad to hear other opinions, thanks Big Pete and others, for advancing the dialogue. AGM only 5 weeks or so away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Will you be at the AGM, Brian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Most groomer operators are paid in Ontario. Did some calculations this spring and the average groomer in Ontario get paid about $12. The lowest paid in the district was about $9 and the highest paid was about $16. That was for all the groomer wages in the district divided by the total grooming hours. So yes, most likely the total grooming cost by the wages will go up. Did also some research in the cost of a groomer in maintenance and amortization. The maintenance cost of a groomer from say 3 years old isn't less then the cost of a groomer of 10 years old but the amortizatinon is most likely way more. Where are we saving money, as example on admin cost and on landowner suppers. As I said earlier, there are clubs who are doing a landowner supper for $1000 while other clubs are spending more then $7500. There are clubs who are spending way too much on admin. If you compare the financials of the clubs, you are differences are shocking. Does the district grooming association save money, hard to say but it will cost less then others are thinking. Also we need less groomers in Ontario, so there is a saving. The groomers will be better maintained, all,groomers will be checked in the fall, some clubs don't do that and they don't understand preventative maintenance. I think the overall grooming consistency will go up but I think if you have more groomer operators on the groomers, you will have also more breakdowns, cost more money. If the district start well and everything is rolling fine, there will be savings, happy.clubs and happy snowmobiles but If the district drop the ball, it will create a "mess". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Our groomer operators are not paid and I believe only 1 club in our district has paid operators. Don't believe that, did some calculations and most groomer operators in every district are getting paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Sounds like MOTS might end up being LOTS You are right, but if it brings LOTS but the trails are way better, is MOTS a bad direction? There are lots of clubs scrambling with volunteers, in MOTS there is way less work for the club. Also no or almost no paperwork and very low administration..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 You are right, but if it brings LOTS but the trails are way better, is MOTS a bad direction? There are lots of clubs scrambling with volunteers, in MOTS there is way less work for the club. Also no or almost no paperwork and very low administration..... I don't believe that there is way less work for the club. There is just less responsibility and discretion for the club. The jobs still have to get done and someone will have to do it. The only thing that I see reduced is the permit job, the other jobs have just moved. How can the work that was done by fifteen clubs now be done at district level without hiring more staff at district? I think you will see volunteers get discouraged and quit volunteering, as Brian suggests. And the paperwork will still have to be done, and likely still at the club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Will you be at the AGM, Brian? No, I did not stand for election as we are moving to Kitchener later this year. My snowmobiling involvement is coming to an end. Just trying to ensure the MOTS proposal gets some good discussion and thought as it is a big step for many Clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Just a question bbakernbay, why do you believe that combining a trail pass with the val tag is not the answer? Would that not eliminate the freeloaders on the trails? Would the ofsc not receive more $$ if every registered sled paid into it? btw I also believe that the current $180 is too low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 The plan is for next year to raise the permit price to $190... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The plan is for next year to raise the permit price to $190... maybe kind of if Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The plan is for next year to raise the permit price to $190... If that's the case I'm selling our sleds. Actually I won't because I believe the permits are a great value. It's a disappointment when we have a low snow winter like last but that happens at times. There are however a number of people that have a psychological value number in their head and for a lot it seems that if you go over the $200 mark that psychological barrier kicks in. Retailers have understood psychological perceptions for a very long time. That is why their prices will be $19.98 rather than $20.00. They also know that if you take a product that isn't moving, drop the price by as little as say $0.50 and put a sign up clearance sale they will fly off the shelf. People perceive they are getting a great deal. It also appears there are a significant number of snowmobilers who live pay cheque to pay cheque and snowmobiling is a luxury to them that already stretches the budget. Often those people are overlooked when the decision makers don't fall into that category and can't imagine the hardships some of lesser means face. Most of these barriers can be overcome with good marketing. You need to convince these people of the value proposition and get them on board. Not just tell them the price is going up. Most snowmobilers I meet haven't any understanding of what goes into providing the trails and where their permit money goes. I just received a small flyer with my Toronto utility bill providing the breakdown of where the money goes. Water, sewer and garbage pickup. It can be enlightening. Perhaps a small document included with each permit educating permit buyers on the cost of insurance, signage, groomers etc. would help get past that psychological barrier some have and provide a better understanding for those who aren't as concerned about the cost but don't have any idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nunz Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 If that's the case I'm selling our sleds. Actually I won't because I believe the permits are a great value. It's a disappointment when we have a low snow winter like last but that happens at times. There are however a number of people that have a psychological value number in their head and for a lot it seems that if you go over the $200 mark that psychological barrier kicks in. Retailers have understood psychological perceptions for a very long time. That is why their prices will be $19.98 rather than $20.00. They also know that if you take a product that isn't moving, drop the price by as little as say $0.50 and put a sign up clearance sale they will fly off the shelf. People perceive they are getting a great deal. It also appears there are a significant number of snowmobilers who live pay cheque to pay cheque and snowmobiling is a luxury to them that already stretches the budget. Often those people are overlooked when the decision makers don't fall into that category and can't imagine the hardships some of lesser means face. Most of these barriers can be overcome with good marketing. You need to convince these people of the value proposition and get them on board. Not just tell them the price is going up. Most snowmobilers I meet haven't any understanding of what goes into providing the trails and where their permit money goes. I just received a small flyer with my Toronto utility bill providing the breakdown of where the money goes. Water, sewer and garbage pickup. It can be enlightening. Perhaps a small document included with each permit educating permit buyers on the cost of insurance, signage, groomers etc. would help get past that psychological barrier some have and provide a better understanding for those who aren't as concerned about the cost but don't have any idea. I think you hit the nail on the head on this one 02, if they are going to increase the cost of the trail pass the OFSC needs to run some ads in the sled magazines and other marketing venues to explain why the need to increase the cost. For the avid snowmobiler that waits from the end of a season for the next to start 20-30 bucks a pass won't break the bank. I think like most things we all shop for there is the value vs price issue, Do you pay a little more for a premium brand and get a superior product or do you pay the least for the cheapest, In my opinion when it comes to snowmobiling I would much rather pay more for better trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCC Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I don't thinking MOTS is going to lessen volunteer work either. Just in MOTS document F-2, it appears to be creating more volunteer work for club reps at the district board! District board plus at least 7 committees, sound like more meetings which equals more work to me! What is going to happen when other club volunteers (signage/trail workers) see paid groomer operators, won't they want to be paid as well? As said in previous posts that some clubs are having a hard time recruiting volunteers, how is finding paid groomer operators for low pay going to work? Groomer repair and maintenance is other area, where some clubs volunteers do most of their repairs & maintenance, while other paid for suppliers to do it! Looking more like more money off the snow to me. If MOTS is the way to proceed, I believe the implementation schedule needs to be adjusted, don't forget we still have to get trails, groomers etc. ready for the upcoming season. If we are going to change the way we do business, let's take the time and do it right! Is MOTS not a five year plan with living documents, so why does it all have to happen in less then 12 months? Lastly we asked at last year's AGM for more information and the BOG has delivered that! Let's keep asking our questions to the BOG and at district meetings, we need to have them answered in order to make the right decision for our clubs/district and snowmobiling in Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I don't thinking MOTS is going to lessen volunteer work either. Just in MOTS document F-2, it appears to be creating more volunteer work for club reps at the district board! District board plus at least 7 committees, sound like more meetings which equals more work to me! What is going to happen when other club volunteers (signage/trail workers) see paid groomer operators, won't they want to be paid as well? As said in previous posts that some clubs are having a hard time recruiting volunteers, how is finding paid groomer operators for low pay going to work? Groomer repair and maintenance is other area, where some clubs volunteers do most of their repairs & maintenance, while other paid for suppliers to do it! Looking more like more money off the snow to me. If MOTS is the way to proceed, I believe the implementation schedule needs to be adjusted, don't forget we still have to get trails, groomers etc. ready for the upcoming season. If we are going to change the way we do business, let's take the time and do it right! Is MOTS not a five year plan with living documents, so why does it all have to happen in less then 12 months? Lastly we asked at last year's AGM for more information and the BOG has delivered that! Let's keep asking our questions to the BOG and at district meetings, we need to have them answered in order to make the right decision for our clubs/district and snowmobiling in Ontario. Why do you think that the BOG delivered more detail? To me they have not provided any details and there is no justification either volunteer or financial wise that would convince any one to take this leap of faith. There are also no milestones that can be measured against to know that things are progressing to the desired end. The OFSC and BOG are doing what they do best: a complete lack of planning and when asked to come back with more details they introduce a completely new wrinkle (amalgamation) into the discussion. And the implementation schedule is unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Just a question bbakernbay, why do you believe that combining a trail pass with the val tag is not the answer? Would that not eliminate the freeloaders on the trails? Would the ofsc not receive more $$ if every registered sled paid into it? btw I also believe that the current $180 is too low. Personally I think the provincial government is really concerned about instituting a Val Tag increase or implementation that would upset those many Snowmobilers that do not use OFSC trails. To me this is political dynamite that they don't wish to touch but I have no inside info on this other than the OFSC has been lobbying for this proposal for several years with no apparent success to date, so that tells me it is not an easy and ready source of cash.Reason 2 is that those Snowmobilers who do not use OFSC trails should not be surcharged and their money used for OFSC trails. Some will say that these funds will be used to promote snowmobile safety programs but that is a weak argument and if true it won't help our grooming and trails. I do think that all snowmobiles and ATVs could be assessed a trail development fee used for improvements on Crown Lands where anybody can generally travel but you still piss off those persons who use their snowmobile or ATV on private property or off trail. It is a political hot potato but the government is going to have to come up with a solution to generate more funds for trail work. After re-reading your post it seems you were thinking that every snowmobile in the province would be required to buy an OFSC Trail Permit. That is politically impossible in my opinion, maybe the Val Tag in a $10-$20 annual amount might fly but certainly not mandatory OFSC Trail Permits for every snowmobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 What is going to happen when other club volunteers (signage/trail workers) see paid groomer operators, won't they want to be paid as well? As said in previous posts that some clubs are having a hard time recruiting volunteers, how is finding paid groomer operators for low pay going to work? If we are going to change the way we do business, let's take the time and do it right! Is MOTS not a five year plan with living documents, so why does it all have to happen in less then 12 months? Lastly we asked at last year's AGM for more information and the BOG has delivered that! Let's keep asking our questions to the BOG and at district meetings, we need to have them answered in order to make the right decision for our clubs/district and snowmobiling in Ontario. There appears to be a number of people in "cottage" country which tends to be where the trails are who have seasonal jobs or no jobs and would be happy to have a or any job through the winter months. It would provide some income and would also be a reason to get up and out. As for people doing signage wanting to be paid, there is a distinct difference between someone going out for perhaps a few afternoons to do signage on their own schedule as opposed to being scheduled for i.e. Wednesday and Friday nights for 12 hour grooming runs. One of the biggest problems with the OFSC is the length of time it takes to make changes to the way things are done. Business needs to be agile to respond to the changing needs and expectations of their customers and the economic realities they face as a business. In general businesses that survive are agile and those that fail aren't. The OFSC is a business faced often with a bunch of dinosaur clubs who like to do things the way they have always done them and are resistant to change because it takes them out of their comfort zone. If it takes a business years to make changes they are doomed. Today - A club member sees an opportunity to do / make things better. It may be a huge improvement but.... first he/she has to sell their own club executive on the plan then their representative has to convince the district of the merit and this is often an uphill battle due to that resistance to change. Typically the older someone is the more resistant to change they are. Look at the composition of most club and district executive and their ages for an idea of how adaptive to change they are likely to be. That is the first year used up. Then the district gets it onto the AGM agenda which is in the second year of the idea. Then the AGM says sounds possible but let's study it and report back next year. Now 3 years when they report back. If you're lucky it gets implemented for the next season which is now 4 years after the idea was brought forward or perhaps it is recommended for implementation with another year to work out how to make it happen. So 4 or 5 years later a change is made. This is not a workable sustainable model in todays world. By now the economics have changed and the expectations and needs of the customer have changed possibly making the idea no longer valid. Way too much time is spent studying and analyzing to death and dealing with way too much bureaucracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Personally I think the provincial government is really concerned about instituting a Val Tag increase or implementation that would upset those many Snowmobilers that do not use OFSC trails. To me this is political dynamite that they don't wish to touch but I have no inside info on this other than the OFSC has been lobbying for this proposal for several years with no apparent success to date, so that tells me it is not an easy and ready source of cash. Reason 2 is that those Snowmobilers who do not use OFSC trails should not be surcharged and their money used for OFSC trails. Some will say that these funds will be used to promote snowmobile safety programs but that is a weak argument and if true it won't help our grooming and trails. I do think that all snowmobiles and ATVs could be assessed a trail development fee used for improvements on Crown Lands where anybody can generally travel but you still piss off those persons who use their snowmobile or ATV on private property or off trail. It is a political hot potato but the government is going to have to come up with a solution to generate more funds for trail work. After re-reading your post it seems you were thinking that every snowmobile in the province would be required to buy an OFSC Trail Permit. That is politically impossible in my opinion, maybe the Val Tag in a $10-$20 annual amount might fly but certainly not mandatory OFSC Trail Permits for every snowmobile. This is a discussion that goes round and round. I pay for all kinds of things that I never have and never will through taxes, fees and levies imposed by government. Living in Toronto I don't use the public libraries that fewer and fewer people actually use but are all kept in place thanks to a vocal minority that do. I don't use the public swimming pools or rinks, the TTC, the ball diamonds, the parks or the school system. Right now I am paying 3 sets of education tax. I do use the Trent Severn Waterway locks a couple of times a year. Everyone's tax money pays for toward that but only boaters use it. Just the way it is. I don't think that the number of people that are snowmobilers who don't use the OFSC trails represent enough of a pool of people that it would matter to the provincial government whether they are happy or not. They tick off a much larger portion of the voting taxpayer regularly and don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 This is a discussion that goes round and round. I pay for all kinds of things that I never have and never will through taxes, fees and levies imposed by government. Living in Toronto I don't use the public libraries that fewer and fewer people actually use but are all kept in place thanks to a vocal minority that do. I don't use the public swimming pools or rinks, the TTC, the ball diamonds, the parks or the school system. Right now I am paying 3 sets of education tax. I do use the Trent Severn Waterway locks a couple of times a year. Everyone's tax money pays for toward that but only boaters use it. Just the way it is. I don't think that the number of people that are snowmobilers who don't use the OFSC trails represent enough of a pool of people that it would matter to the provincial government whether they are happy or not. They tick off a much larger portion of the voting taxpayer regularly and don't care. How about the $50M for the Tesla charging systems. A very small percentage will use them and its ALL the Tax payers footing the bill. The Tesla owner gets a vehicle rebate and also pays NO road tax. The Val tag should include the permit. If you own a sled everyone pays. Don't ride on any OFSC trails so be it. My car Val tag pays for plenty of things I will never use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 As for people doing signage wanting to be paid, there is a distinct difference between someone going out for perhaps a few afternoons to do signage on their own schedule as opposed to being scheduled for i.e. Wednesday and Friday nights for 12 hour grooming runs. doesn't hold water... now the district AND the ofsc TELL THE CLUBS, when they have to brush, sign, inspect trails, to keep their club status trails and top trails open, on the interactive guide. so, now you have a "boss" telling you when you need to have your work done. no different than a grooming schedule. it becomes a "job". it is going to be interesting, and a definite learning curve. there maybe some volunteers, clubs, districts, that just don't want to deal with the political b.s anymore, and just close, fold, or annex themselves away from organized snowmobiling the way the ofsc is leading us into the future. there were snowmobiles, trails, and community snowmobiling activities, before the ofsc, there will be the same, after. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 How about the $50M for the Tesla charging systems. A very small percentage will use them and its ALL the Tax payers footing the bill. The Tesla owner gets a vehicle rebate and also pays NO road tax. The Val tag should include the permit. If you own a sled everyone pays. Don't ride on any OFSC trails so be it. My car Val tag pays for plenty of things I will never use. Exactly.... and the real kicker of the electric car rebates and charging stations is that those buying the electric cars and going to be using those charging stations are those with well above average incomes. Another one is the provincial parks. Yes many thousands of people enjoy camping there every summer but they definitely do not represent the majority of the Ontario population. The operation of the provincial parks even though the province would like them to be self sustainable are not and operate at a loss each year. I don't have a problem with my money supporting the provincial parks. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I always thought a monthly payment system over say 6 months, would help people purchase permits when price goes up. Make deadline sept 30 and only available to people that purchase by the deadline. Those pie charts ofsc use to give out, helped abit, but most people thru them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 doesn't hold water... now the district AND the ofsc TELL THE CLUBS, when they have to brush, sign, inspect trails, to keep their club status trails and top trails open, on the interactive guide. so, now you have a "boss" telling you when you need to have your work done. no different than a grooming schedule. it becomes a "job". it is going to be interesting, and a definite learning curve. there maybe some volunteers, clubs, districts, that just don't want to deal with the political b.s anymore, and just close, fold, or annex themselves away from organized snowmobiling the way the ofsc is leading us into the future. there were snowmobiles, trails, and community snowmobiling activities, before the ofsc, there will be the same, after. Ski It sure as heck does hold water. For years there have been a number or requirements, inspections and sign offs that a club has to do before trail status can be shown as limited or available. There are forms that need to be completed and submitted stating that the signage is in place etc. It is all part of the risk management program that must be followed to demonstrate due diligence for liability. Not new in any way shape or form. There is nothing that stops a club volunteer from going out and working on signage or trail prep in the fall long before the snow falls at a time convenient to them. If it's raining, don't go. If it is a suddenly cold day and tomorrow is going to be more comfortable do it tomorrow. The grooming however is a scheduled event and typically needs to be done minimally on a Thursday or Friday and likely again on a Saturday to meet the expectations of the vast majority of permit buyers who ride on the weekends. The schedule would be dependent upon snowfall, trail usage by the riders and conditions. The world has changed dramatically from the days of snowmobiling before the OFSC. Good luck getting insurance without the OFSC as a singular body with specific rules and structure and if you could get it for a club good luck paying the astronomical price. Without the insurance good luck getting the land owners to let you ride on their property. You sound like one of those with the approach of what worked in the past will continue to work forever. The only things guaranteed in life are death taxes and change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 what your missing is, signing, brushing, and inspection IS A JOB, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE TALKING A SMALL CLUB, WITH OVER 400 KMS OF TRAILS to watch over. the whole process is a job. and a BIG ONE AT THAT! IF YOU THINK GROOMING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT HARDEST JOB, AND THE ONLY ONE THAT DESERVES A WAGE, YOU'VE GOT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. and just like always, when someone disagrees with you, you resort to personal attacks. "you sound like one of those". NICE! yeah, and I keep forgetting, your way is the ONLY WAY, because your the all knowing one. guess, I am going to have to block your posts because, you only see YOUR side of any argument. nice to have the feature on this forum. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Country! Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Don't believe that, did some calculations and most groomer operators in every district are getting paid. Believe it, KCC is correct. Only HCSA pays operators in D6. And I might add our volunteer operators provide some of the best riding in Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.