bbakernbay Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 The OPP in North Bay absolutely say that they do not give anyone the opportunity to buy an OFSC Trail Permit as this supposedly is considered coercion and they write them up which I agree with. We need all Freeloaders to get caught at some point so that they do buy a Trail Permit like everyone else. Apparently in Quebec very few Freeloaders because of higher fines and more of a culture (surprise) that everyone needs to support the system. Here, it seems too many are trying to beat the system due to lax enforcement and minimal fines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Apparently in Quebec very few Freeloaders because of higher fines and more of a culture (surprise) that everyone needs to support the system. Here, it seems too many are trying to beat the system due to lax enforcement and minimal fines. It is sad that we have so many willing to cheat the system even As stated the fines are too low yet I doubt we will see an increase in fine amounts I wish everyone who had the time to ride go to meetings and help out the clubs, and see that all help offered is appreciated We should be brushing trails soon here, meeting Club tomorrow night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Thanks FB, well put. When the Freeloaders are cheating on the thousands of Volunteers that make this work it is really despicable. I am really pissed that the Government of Ontario can't get their act together to increase fines and make it easier for Trail Patrol to issue tickets against the Sled Owner. The OFSC and OPP met in August but that doesn't do much without legislative changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Thanks FB, well put. When the Freeloaders are cheating on the thousands of Volunteers that make this work it is really despicable. I am really pissed that the Government of Ontario can't get their act together to increase fines and make it easier for Trail Patrol to issue tickets against the Sled Owner. The OFSC and OPP met in August but that doesn't do much without legislative changes. The govt of Ontario has not got their act together anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Maybe we need Vigilantes with Groomers crushing freeloading sleds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 You are the one that is trolling Dweese , so don't be calling me a troll when it was you who went off topic with missinformation about the cost of a cop's salary BTW thanks for the personal attack and deflection I didn't go off topic I simplely commented on a post. Your the one who started the personal attack and jumped on my back about how. I said it was quick math, so get a grip and take a chill pill dude. As for the OPP getting all the money from the fines. Your right it blows big time. But at least the freeloader is getting a fine and maybe next time he will think twice before he free loads. But most likely not, as there is too many trails with too little enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Maybe we need Vigilantes with Groomers crushing freeloading sleds. ummm no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Any idea how many tickets for non-permits where written last year? Would be interesting to see how effective the enforcement is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 They ticket a handful every year here. They got one guy twice in one day. He was pissed and argued he had alreay been ticketed once they could not ticket him again. At 200 bucks they take the chance because its less then a 260 dollar permit. So if they get away with it one year they are ahead by a huge amount. I hope the ticket goes up to 400 dollars and would be happier at 800 dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 As you can see below, if police lay a charge of riding with out a permit under the MSVA and not the trespass act the fine can reach $1,000.00 in court. What we may want to ask is that the act be modified to a min fine of $500 instead of the current $200. Stop officers can also lay this charge but Trail Patrol cannot and are limited to enforcing the trespass act on behalf of the landowner. Asking that TP be able to enforce the MSVA is a request that will not happen, we have STOP, and perhaps we need to encourage more people to join that entity if we want to see more enforcement of the permits on trail. Trail permit required 2.1 (1) No person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle upon a prescribed trail except under the authority of, and in accordance with, a trail permit for the motorized snow vehicle issued under subsection (2) or except on lands occupied by the owner of the motorized snow vehicle. 2000, c. 30, s. 3. Issuance of trail permits (2) Upon the application of the owner of a motorized snow vehicle and payment of the required fee, the Minister or any person authorized by the Minister shall, (a) issue for the motorized snow vehicle a numbered trail permit in accordance with the regulations; and ( provide such evidence of the issue of the trail permit for display upon the motorized snow vehicle as may be prescribed by the regulations. 2000, c. 30, s. 3. Validity of trail permit (3) A trail permit is valid during the period of time prescribed by the regulations. 2000, c. 30, s. 3. Display of evidence of trail permit (4) Every driver of a motorized snow vehicle upon a prescribed trail shall display evidence of the issue of the trail permit on the motorized snow vehicle in the form and manner prescribed by the regulations. 2000, c. 30, s. 3. Local issuance of trail permits (5) The Minister may give authority to any person to issue trail permits and to provide evidence of such issue of trail permits and may define the duties and powers of such person and, despite section 2 of the Financial Administration Act, may authorize the fee to be retained by the person so authorized for each trail permit issued. 2000, c. 30, s. 3. Offence (6) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $200 and not more than $1,000. 2000, c. 30, s. 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Ok, lets step back for a moment. The Province is not going to do anything unless somebody pushes them to do it. The only organized group I am aware of that is trying to do something is the Ontario Federation of Agriculture by lobbying to have the minimum fine under the Trespass Act raised to $1,000 and have tougher enforcement. See post 15 in this thread. So instead of everybody complaining about the problem here, how about everybody pick up a pen and shoot a letter of support to the OFA. And while you are at it, ask your club and District to do the same. Imagine the impact Trail Patrol could have if the fines were actually a deterrent and it was easier to lay the trespass charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 You also should not be able to ride your sled on the trail immediately. If that is impossible, then impound it! There must be consequences or there will not be compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 They ticket a handful every year here. They got one guy twice in one day. He was pissed and argued he had alreay been ticketed once they could not ticket him again. At 200 bucks they take the chance because its less then a 260 dollar permit. So if they get away with it one year they are ahead by a huge amount. I hope the ticket goes up to 400 dollars and would be happier at 800 dollars. How did that defense work for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 How did that defense work for him? You can't fix stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 How did that defense work for him? Couldn't tell ya but he still rides with no permit, hes just more cagey and has not got caught again. He is one of those who claim the OFSC (Club) stole the trails so he should not have to pay to use what was free before. Very large following that group. You guys have it easy in the South compared to the North in that regard! We groom 90% crown land and 10% Private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Couldn't tell ya but he still rides with no permit, hes just more cagey and has not got caught again. He is one of those who claim the OFSC (Club) stole the trails so he should not have to pay to use what was free before. Very large following that group. You guys have it easy in the South compared to the North in that regard! We groom 90% crown land and 10% Private. You seem to be one of the few that acknowledge that freeloaders are a real problem in the north or in the system in general. There is an old song... sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone....wonder what he would say if the club folded due to lack of support and the trails went away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 You seem to be one of the few that acknowledge that freeloaders are a real problem in the north or in the system in general. There is an old song... sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone....wonder what he would say if the club folded due to lack of support and the trails went away Freeloaders are always a problem no matter where you are! Everyone wants more revenue and freeloaders are seen as a loss! Ideas vary as to the solution to that problem! The problem is the same but different North and South wise! How do get everyone on board? What might work in the South may not work in the North and vise versa! After years of head against wall pounding I'm to the point of 2000 dollar fine and loose the sled. I'm running out of honey! Next month I may be calmed down and back to the the hand holding and baby kissing type of political make it work touchy feely type of thought process! Ask Kenora about you don't know what you have till its gone. They stopped grooming for one year, then came back better then ever but that is the exception not the rule. Try to start up District 16 again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Freeloaders are always a problem no matter where you are! Everyone wants more revenue and freeloaders are seen as a loss! Ideas vary as to the solution to that problem! The problem is the same but different North and South wise! How do get everyone on board? What might work in the South may not work in the North and vise versa! After years of head against wall pounding I'm to the point of 2000 dollar fine and loose the sled. I'm running out of honey! Next month I may be calmed down and back to the the hand holding and baby kissing type of political make it work touchy feely type of thought process! Ask Kenora about you don't know what you have till its gone. They stopped grooming for one year, then came back better then ever but that is the exception not the rule. Try to start up District 16 again! You and I seem to be on the same page....Lack of enforcement and insufficient penalties are indeed helping to create the problem. Your statement about the differences between the north and south are so true. Some see the north south dialogue as being divisive. I see it as recognizing the geographic areas and their situations simply have some unique situations to deal with but we all have the same goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I don't know what an increase in fines will do.. The fine for not having insurance on your car is $5000, but from the stories google just gave me. They figure about 10% of the 7.8 million vehicles on the roads in Ontario are uninsured. Upping the fine might solve some of the issues, with the more honest crowd. But I'm sure there is still going to be a very large number who know where and when to ride to avoid enforcement. I do feel for you guys in the North, because this is one of those issues where there really is a difference from down here. With so many trails on crown land, I'm sure you have tones of people that say, my taxes are already go to the crown so screw the OFSC. The only real fix for freeloaders would be to make the permit part of the annual license sticker price. But then your hurting the honest sledder who doesn't have access or use an OFSC trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 Now you know why I bang my head in frustration! I agree with you however and you make good points. You can fix ugly but you can't fix stupid as quoted from Ron White my hero! A thought though is if you have a few accidents and or a DUI your insurance can rise to as much as 5,000 dollars a year. I know a guy in this boat. Insurance agent buddy pointed out that there are many thousands of people who pay huge premiums yearly. Topic came u[p because I was moaning over the near thousand dollar insurance on my truck. So buy your insurance then buy a two year plate and cancel your insurance a month later. Just saved 10,000 dollars less a months insurance. Kinda the same as 200 dollar fine for a 260 dollar permit. No teeth! Hence my 2500 dollar fine and forfeit your sled if caught on the trail. Now we have teeth and 5,000 dollar fine for no insurance when minimum recommended insurance is a Million dollar liability policy you have to think that 5,000 is kinda low no! As far as those who do not ride our trails let them opt out of a val tag permit at point of sale and sign agreeing to the 2500 dollar fine and forfeit of their sled to be sold at auction giving the profits to the OFSC. Sure some will sign and take the risk but the gains are way better for the clubs and far less will risk that much over a permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Make the fines and punishment anything u want still need the enforcement without whats the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Make the fines and punishment anything u want still need the enforcement without whats the point True to a point, but when I was out on trail patrol with the police we stopped 60 sleds and 10 without permits. Since then I know they have with the police caught a few a year. I know the other clubs around us have caught a few a year. If in our district we have caught 30 sleds a year thats 75,000 a year as compared to 6,000 a year. Now throw in 30 sleds to auction, you don't need to be out there much, word of mouth will take over. Fear will keep more of them honest! A 200 trespass charge they seem to laugh at and no one fears it, as its still cheaper then a permit. I had a guy curse me and laugh at me because as he said two years with no permit he could swallow a 200 fine. He also swore at the Police officer and flipped her off. She smiled as he sped off and said I know his father, hes (the kid) going to regret that! Story goes the Father sold the sled as it was his! Good for him but typical because there are many Fathers who tell the kids stay off the trails because I'm not buying a permit for them. Like 16 17 year old kids listen! We work with the local Police and lend them a sled to come out with us, it took effort on our part but they even call us now and set dates and times to go out on patrol. They won't go out alone they have no sled but they will go out with us and tour the town. The OPP are more of a challenge but they have been out a lot more in the past years especially poker derby's. I know its our persistence asking the police to come out that has brought them out. I don't know if that works everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 We have a good stop program here so the buggers with no permit ride at night wtf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinental couch Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Speeding tickets whether on a snowmobile or an automobile are priced so that you won't take time off work to fight them.Therefore there are very little consequences and minimal cost,so people will continue to do it.Heavy fines and making people responsable for their actions is the only way to instill enough fear into them to reduce this lawlessness. I do not believe that we should be a police state but fear is the only fix for stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 We have a good stop program here so the buggers with no permit ride at night wtf that is waht I like about back home is the fact cops sometime go out middle of week so their presence is known to most as well as the Trail Patrol are week day riders also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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