lakejoe Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Just got an email from PSSD pleading for help with permit sales because they basically have no money even though they get some of the highest volume of traffic in the province. I found this particularly frustrating: "In the 2013/2014 season, PSSD sold 2,676 permits of the 84,263 permits sold province wide." That's complete BS. Riders who travel up to D10 but contribute nothing except ripping up the trails should be banned from the area. Maybe we should move to specific District Access Permits? PLEASE stop buying your permits locally if you intend to ride elsewhere. "Buy where you ride" has never been more important given these types of figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sledder Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Couldn't agree more, buy where you ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monte1214 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Okay....I rode almost 4000kms in 8 different districts last winter. I always buy where ride and volunteer. (PPSC) Can you kindly explain to me how I would "Buy where I Ride" in that situation?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Okay....I rode almost 4000kms in 8 different districts last winter. I always buy where ride and volunteer. (PPSC) Can you kindly explain to me how I would "Buy where I Ride" in that situation?? Its should be promoted as "buy where you ride most"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monte1214 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 And I'd be fine with that too Paul! PPSC will still get my time though. Its should be promoted as "buy where you ride most"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barberch Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Its should be promoted as "buy where you ride most"...... that is what I have done the last few years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 one club sold over 3% total permits available and still has no money should really learn to spend responsibly, was busy everywhere last year and for regional permits for it only survive on what the district collects no ofsc transfers lets see where we'll be in a couple years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakejoe Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 The whole system or "matrix" of how to distribute funds (or whatever it's called these days) is broken. I love the idea of 10s of thousands of potential KMs available across the province, but not at the cost of spreading funds so thin that the most traveled districts are starved. It makes no sense. We need new ideas here. I don't think its a horrible idea to charge for a base OFSC permit and then each district sells passes for their area. Or what if we installed tickers on entry points of each district like they do on roads when they're trying to determine usage? Then distribute funds soley based on previous year's actual usage? Buy where you ride clearly isn't working either if these figures are true. It's a nice idea but meaningless if not executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The matrix is gone, we have 1 year with FFC, with 2676 in permits @30% of $180, PSSD gets $144504 + $62.79/grooming hr. I know nothing about you individule situation, but some good places to look for savings could be in administration as well as volunteer expenses. It doesn't seem like you should be destitute. Maybe you are, but you should be able to make something happen with that money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakejoe Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 The matrix is gone, we have 1 year with FFC, with 2676 in permits @30% of $180, PSSD gets $144504 + $62.79/grooming hr. I know nothing about you individule situation, but some good places to look for savings could be in administration as well as volunteer expenses. It doesn't seem like you should be destitute. Maybe you are, but you should be able to make something happen with that money. For the record: I am just a concerned member here. I volunteer when possible but I'm not actually involved with club or district management, so I have no clue how they spend the available funds, but here's more from the email: In a recent OFSC snowmobile rider survey, District 10 was rated as one of the most ridden districts in the province. So how can it be that clubs in District 10 sell the least number of permits in the province? Clubs in District 10 have always maintained a “small but mighty” persona and have managed to face many challenges over the years. Right now however, the clubs who are part of the grooming association known as Parry Sound Snowmobile District (PSSD) are facing a particularly complicated challenge. The challenge is the rising costs of grooming in our area: higher than average maintenance costs due to an aging trail grooming fleet; rising fuel costs; and shrinking revenue from permit sales. In the 2013/2014 season, PSSD sold 2,676 permits of the 84,263 permits sold province wide. We must ask ourselves: how do we continue to provide the best product, with the least amount of revenue to the most number of riders? The answer is: we can’t. It's all just very frustrating from my perspective. Having enough funds for grooming is one thing, but now there are special projects (from what I understand) that are being put on the shelf as well. There must be a better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 all I can tell you is the province as a whole is on the same funding formula, my club and district didn't get as much money as we used to either, so we know of 2 of us now. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would expect there is a higher % that are down then there is that stayed even or actually gained. This past season is tough to go by, it was a banner year for conditions province wide, if happens again PSSD will be in good company. You can thank all the cheap ass sledders that demand a $180 permit that won't properly fund 2/3rd's of the provincial system. If 90% quit complaining and look in the mirror the problem isn't standing far from the mirror. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 For the record: I am just a concerned member here. I volunteer when possible but I'm not actually involved with club or district management, so I have no clue how they spend the available funds, but here's more from the email: In a recent OFSC snowmobile rider survey, District 10 was rated as one of the most ridden districts in the province. So how can it be that clubs in District 10 sell the least number of permits in the province? Clubs in District 10 have always maintained a “small but mighty” persona and have managed to face many challenges over the years. Right now however, the clubs who are part of the grooming association known as Parry Sound Snowmobile District (PSSD) are facing a particularly complicated challenge. The challenge is the rising costs of grooming in our area: higher than average maintenance costs due to an aging trail grooming fleet; rising fuel costs; and shrinking revenue from permit sales. In the 2013/2014 season, PSSD sold 2,676 permits of the 84,263 permits sold province wide. We must ask ourselves: how do we continue to provide the best product, with the least amount of revenue to the most number of riders? The answer is: we can’t. It's all just very frustrating from my perspective. Having enough funds for grooming is one thing, but now there are special projects (from what I understand) that are being put on the shelf as well. There must be a better way. Part of the challenge would be related to people going into someplace like Royal Distributing to buy a new suit or perhaps buying a new sled or parts from a dealer and getting the permit there. They go to the local club and not to where you ride. The new online process would hopefully improve that situation as you can choose the club you support regardless of where you live and not relying on the nearest permit seller to where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 You can thank all the cheap ass sledders that demand a $180 permit that won't properly fund 2/3rd's of the provincial system. Permit price needs to go up or 2/3rd's of the province (or more) will be closing trails or closing up shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Permit price needs to go up or 2/3rd's of the province (or more) will be closing trails or closing up shop. What you have is a catch 22 situation as the reason many don't buy permits is the price, so if you raise it more stop buying. Yet you want more money so you raise the price trying to increase the bottom line, repeating the circle over and over again. There are other ways to increase the bottom line! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 What you have is a catch 22 situation as the reason many don't buy permits is the price, so if you raise it more stop buying. Yet you want more money so you raise the price trying to increase the bottom line, repeating the circle over and over again. There are other ways to increase the bottom line! I certainly agree that there are other ways to increase the bottom line but I certainly believe it was a mistake to drop the price of the permit. Those are significant lost dollars. Evidenced by more clubs in financial peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 What you have is a catch 22 situation as the reason many don't buy permits is the price, so if you raise it more stop buying. Yet you want more money so you raise the price trying to increase the bottom line, repeating the circle over and over again. There are other ways to increase the bottom line! If you have the silver bullet solution everyone would love to hear it. As for people grumbling about the price... those people are just unbelievable. $180... how many Saturday nights out will that cover or trips to the ski hill. How can anyone rationalize that $180 is too much when they have perhaps $10,000 in a sled, $5,000 in a trailer, $500+ in personal gear, then insurance and so much more. The permit is the cheapest part of the overall cost. I know there are those that think that way though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 If you have the silver bullet solution everyone would love to hear it. As for people grumbling about the price... those people are just unbelievable. $180... how many Saturday nights out will that cover or trips to the ski hill. How can anyone rationalize that $180 is too much when they have perhaps $10,000 in a sled, $5,000 in a trailer, $500+ in personal gear, then insurance and so much more. The permit is the cheapest part of the overall cost. I know there are those that think that way though LOL the old rationalize by what something else costs. Plus its 187.50 not 180.00 and I don't buy a sled helmet or gear every year. I do buy a permit and insurance every year however and the permit is more then the insurance! People! No insurance is a huge fine, you have to have a sled or the argument is moot, not everyone has a trailer but if you do you don't need a new one every year, my gear is 15 years old, my helmet is 8 years old. If I want to cut costs the permit is expendable because if I do get caught the fine is less then the permit. We went from 900 members down to less then 300 as the permit price went up from way under a hundred bucks to 210 and there where no job losses in that period! Only variable was permit price! And yes I have the answer val tag permits! I know! I know! Don't go there! Maybe the simplest is like Manitoba where the fine for no permit is over 400 bucks and a permit is 125. For Ontario the fine should be closer 800/ 900 bucks in comparison! Biggest problem with the fine is the Government gets the money not the clubs. Maybe a Val Tag system that you can opt out of but if you get caught on a trail then the fine is 2,500 bucks and you forfeit your sled! Half the fine goes to the OFSC Government auctions off the sleds! Still not what I want but it would work! Fine now has no teeth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakejoe Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Choosing the right price is hard. That's not new in this world, and certainly not new to this recreational industry. I'm sure the OFSC has plenty of data on how they set the prices. Lower prices = more permits sold but at a lower avg price, whereas higher prices = less permits sold but at a higher avg price. I'm sure the revenue is somewhat fixed from year to year with slight fluctuations based on the weather, regardless of the price. The challenge as I see it is that we have too many clubs, and too many kms of trail to maintain. When the busiest clubs are getting the smallest portions of the funds, we all lose. It's cute to look at random trails on the map in the remotest corners of the province and think "It'd be neat to check those out one day", but obviously no one does. So why are we collectively paying to maintain them? The money should be funneled into the busiest districts based solely on traffic, and we should focus on having a really, truly, excellent trail network, instead of tens of thousands of kms that are typically marginal in quality at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Choosing the right price is hard. That's not new in this world, and certainly not new to this recreational industry. I'm sure the OFSC has plenty of data on how they set the prices. Lower prices = more permits sold but at a lower avg price, whereas higher prices = less permits sold but at a higher avg price. I'm sure the revenue is somewhat fixed from year to year with slight fluctuations based on the weather, regardless of the price. It strikes me that you have a lot of faith in the OFSC without any understanding of how it works, or how the money is distributed The challenge as I see it is that we have too many clubs, and too many kms of trail to maintain. When the busiest clubs are getting the smallest portions of the funds, we all lose. It's cute to look at random trails on the map in the remotest corners of the province and think "It'd be neat to check those out one day", but obviously no one does. So why are we collectively paying to maintain them? Just because you may not have checked them out, doesn't mean that no one does. The money should be funneled into the busiest districts based solely on traffic, and we should focus on having a really, truly, excellent trail network, instead of tens of thousands of kms that are typically marginal in quality at best. What are you smoking? You have obviously never experienced the excellent trails in the northern parts of the province. The trails are wide, smooth and interesting, and certainly no where near "marginal" in quality. If all of the money were funneled into "the busiest districts based solely on traffic", the congestion would be unbearable and then the sport would flounder. Try riding outside D10 and expand your horizon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Just thinking outside the box, so maybe this thought has no merit whatosever...........but I see how Moosenee has tourist tours for viewing of polar bears by using a windowed tow behind piece of equipment, I see Columbia icefields and other parks like it use a piece of equipment with windows that tourists can sit and view the winter landscape. I see the Agawa Canyon train tour type of tourists ...........I see a thread here of "memorable sledding trips.......What if the OFSC had one or two tow behind the groomer pieces of equipment that could fit 20 tourists maybe to go on a tour of OFSC's best loops . (it could be moved from district to disctrict during winter by truck for various groomers to then hook up to for a weekend This minimum this could just be a marketing tool to let new potential sledders see the landscape and trails (wives , retirees etc etc) . Or at maximum could be tourist adventure that actual makes money with European or Japanese tourists............any profits go into OFSC .....hey could even get some politicians on the trail exposing the right people to the OFSC ............just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakejoe Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 What are you smoking? You have obviously never experienced the excellent trails in the northern parts of the province. The trails are wide, smooth and interesting, and certainly no where near "marginal" in quality. If all of the money were funneled into "the busiest districts based solely on traffic", the congestion would be unbearable and then the sport would flounder. Try riding outside D10 and expand your horizon! Thanks for the reply! I predicted someone would say this. They are the "busiest districts" for a reason. Not just because I happen to ride there. I don't question that the less busy districts get traffic or have beautiful trails, but the entire industry has voted simply by where the majority of people ride, and investing funds in them is a waste. Obviously this will never be a popular opinion, especially for the few that have "expanded their horizon". I'm sure those trails are wide, smooth and interesting, but just having them made available is the whole point. It means less funds to make the really busy trails wide, smooth and interesting. It's the busiest trails that become marginal in quality because of lack of funds to groom and maintain. I'm sure those remote and unused trails stay smooth for days, whereas the busy trails are almost never smooth. At the end of the day, no amount of ranting is going to change this. I understand that we need everyone to have local (to them) trails to keep them coming back each year. It's just a shame that we can't collectively come up with a better solution for getting more funds to the busier districts for when the masses inevitably trailer there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakejoe Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Just thinking outside the box, so maybe this thought has no merit whatosever...........but I see how Moosenee has tourist tours for viewing of polar bears by using a windowed tow behind piece of equipment, I see Columbia icefields and other parks like it use a piece of equipment with windows that tourists can sit and view the winter landscape. I see the Agawa Canyon train tour type of tourists ...........I see a thread here of "memorable sledding trips.......What if the OFSC had one or two tow behind the groomer pieces of equipment that could fit 20 tourists maybe to go on a tour of OFSC's best loops . (it could be moved from district to disctrict during winter by truck for various groomers to then hook up to for a weekend This minimum this could just be a marketing tool to let new potential sledders see the landscape and trails (wives , retirees etc etc) . Or at maximum could be tourist adventure that actual makes money with European or Japanese tourists............any profits go into OFSC .....hey could even get some politicians on the trail exposing the right people to the OFSC ............just a thought Seems like a great idea to me! What would stop the local clubs or groups of clubs from just doing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thanks for the reply! I predicted someone would say this. They are the "busiest districts" for a reason. Not just because I happen to ride there. I don't question that the less busy districts get traffic or have beautiful trails, but the entire industry has voted simply by where the majority of people ride, and investing funds in them is a waste. Obviously this will never be a popular opinion, especially for the few that have "expanded their horizon". I'm sure those trails are wide, smooth and interesting, but just having them made available is the whole point. It means less funds to make the really busy trails wide, smooth and interesting. It's the busiest trails that become marginal in quality because of lack of funds to groom and maintain. I'm sure those remote and unused trails stay smooth for days, whereas the busy trails are almost never smooth. At the end of the day, no amount of ranting is going to change this. I understand that we need everyone to have local (to them) trails to keep them coming back each year. It's just a shame that we can't collectively come up with a better solution for getting more funds to the busier districts for when the masses inevitably trailer there. I have had my heart in this for 34yrs now and its comments like this that are driving the die hards away from giving there time anymore....we have built the system for the province of ONT not just the busiest area as u call it( I call it the red carpet area)......why is it the busiest area???.......yes I have a camp in the area to just a little North Britt but and have the same opportunity as u but why dont I ride there? We have 34000km now ...down from 46000km a few yrs ago....217 active clubs and 5000-7500 active volunteers and some are willing to throw them under the bus just so we have trails in the busiest areas......come on its now just about me me me......maybe its time to get involved up there since u take the time to drive/ride the area.....maybe its time to cut back some of the trails/grooming up there to make ends meet......The OFSC listened to what the peeps wanted cheaper permit (IMO the permit should have stayed or increased) but anyway we are going thru some tough times and growing pains with the new agenda etc.....all groomer's had fuel in there tanks last yr,all groomers that broke got up and going asap last yr,to me thats a step in the right direction....yes there is going to be hurdles to get over yet but we have to think of the whole province....If mother nature blesses us with another great season try riding from home to the cottage its a fun ride.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The point is that many ride here primarily yet buy their permits elsewhere. Just buy where you ride most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white dragon Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Just thinking outside the box, so maybe this thought has no merit whatosever...........but I see how Moosenee has tourist tours for viewing of polar bears by using a windowed tow behind piece of equipment, I see Columbia icefields and other parks like it use a piece of equipment with windows that tourists can sit and view the winter landscape. I see the Agawa Canyon train tour type of tourists ...........I see a thread here of "memorable sledding trips.......What if the OFSC had one or two tow behind the groomer pieces of equipment that could fit 20 tourists maybe to go on a tour of OFSC's best loops . (it could be moved from district to disctrict during winter by truck for various groomers to then hook up to for a weekend This minimum this could just be a marketing tool to let new potential sledders see the landscape and trails (wives , retirees etc etc) . Or at maximum could be tourist adventure that actual makes money with European or Japanese tourists............any profits go into OFSC .....hey could even get some politicians on the trail exposing the right people to the OFSC ............just a thoughtthat might be worth a try,show people how beautiful it is out on the trail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.