How Other Provinces/States Fund Trails

[Viperules700]

Easy for some people... not so easy for others.... TSSA is going after the storage tanks for gas and diesel for compliance. Eventually they will get to the smaller ones. Apart from that I'm not

so sure that my house insurance would allow me

to have a tank for gas storage. Then find

someone to deliver in bulk in suburbia. Nice

concept though. Good friend of mine is a farmer

and has a tank but it is a very long way to go for

a fill up.

You only save 8 cents a litre on the Ontario fuel tax and save another 4 cents in retailing charges. It is about 12 cents roughly over pump prices. Not huge at the end of the day. You should look into gas advantage Canadian tire MasterCard. Now that CT has allot of fuel stations along the 400 series highways. The wifey saves 8 cents every month and it is an instant discount on 700 litres per month.

[Sasquatch777]

What's your point?  I do not recall making any North vs South arguments.  Somebody was pointing out all the "breaks" that Northern residents got, I was just clarifying things for them.

I think you've made as many North vs South arguments as anybody, including whatever it is this is trying to say.

 

Do I consider Nipigon to be in Northern Ontario?  Bloody right I do!  I don't really care where it sits in relation to Manitoba.

Huh! I was agreeing that North of 50 is way North and I only used Nipigon and Highway 11 because some might know where that is. Not much past that! The Manitoba border thing is just an irony that I go straight west and pop out in the South of the rest of Canada. Sheesh! I never said Nipigon wasn't in the North. I did say that there was only a few places that are North of 50. I did not make any North South argument only pointed out an Irony. What your trying to read into it I don't know. In no way whatsoever did I attack you or even disagree with you. Note to self don't make any referance to Nipigon, Bucking Pig lives there and will take it wrong! Please reread what I said and this time don't look for what was never there!

[Bucking Pig]

Huh! I was agreeing that North of 50 is way North and I only used Nipigon and Highway 11 because some might know where that is. Not much past that! The Manitoba border thing is just an irony that I go straight west and pop out in the South of the rest of Canada. Sheesh! I never said Nipigon wasn't in the North. I did say that there was only a few places that are North of 50. I did not make any North South argument only pointed out an Irony. What your trying to read into it I don't know. In no way whatsoever did I attack you or even disagree with you. Note to self don't make any referance to Nipigon, Bucking Pig lives there and will take it wrong! Please reread what I said and this time don't look for what was never there!

OK.  I guess I mis-read it.  My apologies.

BP

[Dave K]

VR700, where are you getting this died gas?  I called my supplier and they never heard of it.

[Panther340]

Quite frankly I think the gas tax rebate based on volume of fuel estimates OFSC makes would be good source of funds that fairly represents fuel used on trails. (although I suspect OFSC will exaggerate the annual estimates). So Sasquatch don’t pretend to know whether I would of been happy with this good suggestion by Big Pete.

 

But more importantly I just got back from Service Ontario at lunch time where I renewed my Snowmachine Val tags for next two years and all for free , Thanks for the free val tag subsidy Dweese and O2Sled !  I also spoke to the long time employee there and he stated that rumours about Government starting to charge Northerners for snowmachine  val tags have been occurring for the twelve years he has done val tag work. And even if it ever came to fruition (because OFSC wants $15 or $20) , the advance notice the Government would have to make would cause influx of snowmachine owners to get tags before it came into effect so those folks would be good for two more winters without OFSC getting the funds from them and only new snowmachine sales would cause any amount of val tag funds to be generated in first two years.  So now I am good until Dec 2015 and I retire then and if by 2015 a Government is brave enough to up user fees , then I will renew before then for two more years as will thousands of others. As it is that funding source will be at best a delayed source with much more tangible funding to be pursued from the actual users with permit fee increases or gas tax rebate. But with winters waning snow falls I suspect I will have the last laugh when thousands of Snowmachine owners like Dweeb and 02 with their $12,000 machines and $4000 trailers rust away in their green back yards five years from now. Call me up north here I might need a cheap used machine for my farm, I won’t be using val tags or insurance by then anyway.  Smile !!

 

A few years ago, around when I found this website  I pictured retiring in Elliot Lake and in my winters volunteering for the Elliot Lake Snowbirds OFSC club to run their groomer or whatever ( I drive and maintain tractors and various pull behind PTO implements on my hobby farm now) and I know the trails and lakes around Elliot very well. But in the past year seeing the haughty attitude of many on this site, there is no way I would volunteer for any OFSC club , instead I will make sure any devious plans they have for trails or funding are exposed for all to judge merit or lack thereof.

[Canuck]

You're entitled to your opinion Panther 340.

 

Something you have (had) for free may cost you in the future. When crown land gets converted to a provincial park (with $10 per night camping fees) I hear the same comments. "Been camping free for years and darned if I will pay for it".

 

There is no right or wrong. I sincerely believe that folks are trying to find a 'we' solution and you're looking for a 'me' solution.

 

I hope that you change your mind regarding Elliot Lake. You have a lot to offer the community.

[02Sled]

Quite frankly I think the gas tax rebate based on volume of fuel estimates OFSC makes would be good source of funds that fairly represents fuel used on trails. (although I suspect OFSC will exaggerate the annual estimates). So Sasquatch don’t pretend to know whether I would of been happy with this good suggestion by Big Pete.

 

But more importantly I just got back from Service Ontario at lunch time where I renewed my Snowmachine Val tags for next two years and all for free , Thanks for the free val tag subsidy Dweese and O2Sled !  I also spoke to the long time employee there and he stated that rumours about Government starting to charge Northerners for snowmachine  val tags have been occurring for the twelve years he has done val tag work. And even if it ever came to fruition (because OFSC wants $15 or $20) , the advance notice the Government would have to make would cause influx of snowmachine owners to get tags before it came into effect so those folks would be good for two more winters without OFSC getting the funds from them and only new snowmachine sales would cause any amount of val tag funds to be generated in first two years.  So now I am good until Dec 2015 and I retire then and if by 2015 a Government is brave enough to up user fees , then I will renew before then for two more years as will thousands of others. As it is that funding source will be at best a delayed source with much more tangible funding to be pursued from the actual users with permit fee increases or gas tax rebate. But with winters waning snow falls I suspect I will have the last laugh when thousands of Snowmachine owners like Dweeb and 02 with their $12,000 machines and $4000 trailers rust away in their green back yards five years from now. Call me up north here I might need a cheap used machine for my farm, I won’t be using val tags or insurance by then anyway.  Smile !!

 

A few years ago, around when I found this website  I pictured retiring in Elliot Lake and in my winters volunteering for the Elliot Lake Snowbirds OFSC club to run their groomer or whatever ( I drive and maintain tractors and various pull behind PTO implements on my hobby farm now) and I know the trails and lakes around Elliot very well. But in the past year seeing the haughty attitude of many on this site, there is no way I would volunteer for any OFSC club , instead I will make sure any devious plans they have for trails or funding are exposed for all to judge merit or lack thereof.

So someone who works for a franchise... (service ontario licence office) you do know they are privately owned tells you the province has to give advance notice and you believe this person as the gospel. Tell me the province has never increased fees without notice before. Many times the province has introduced a budget that says effective at midnight... not next week or next month.... effective immediately. Keep living your sense of entitlement. You are just so hard done by.

[Sasquatch777]

 

A few years ago, around when I found this website  I pictured retiring in Elliot Lake and in my winters volunteering for the Elliot Lake Snowbirds OFSC club to run their groomer or whatever ( I drive and maintain tractors and various pull behind PTO implements on my hobby farm now) and I know the trails and lakes around Elliot very well. But in the past year seeing the haughty attitude of many on this site, there is no way I would volunteer for any OFSC club , instead I will make sure any devious plans they have for trails or funding are exposed for all to judge merit or lack thereof.

 

I would have but now I won't means what? You sound like a kid making excuses and trying to make it sound like its someone elses fault you are not going to do something you never planned to in the first place. LMAO!

 

And really, us devious people? Come on! Who talks like this?

 

Unlike you as I retire I will continue to volunteer and maintain equipment for my club. A volunteer is a valuable asset and in retirement it gives one something to do. Maybe you can go volunteer for the 4H instead. I plan on doing that as well when I retire! I have a devious plan for them as well!  Muhaha!

[Sasquatch777]

You're entitled to your opinion Panther 340.

 

Something you have (had) for free may cost you in the future. When crown land gets converted to a provincial park (with $10 per night camping fees) I hear the same comments. "Been camping free for years and darned if I will pay for it".

 

There is no right or wrong. I sincerely believe that folks are trying to find a 'we' solution and you're looking for a 'me' solution.

 

I hope that you change your mind regarding Elliot Lake. You have a lot to offer the community.

 

What Panter and others like him in the North do not realize is that most of the so called crown land they run on can be taken away. They close old logging roads to motorized traffic around here all the time. Pipelines and hydro lines can be closed as well and there is talk of it. Special interest groups like Sierra Club for one is lobbying for the closure of the bush to people without permission to be there. You know the Spotted Owl or Bushland Caribo or some plant I never heard of must be protected.

 

Point is the OFSC or rather the clubs get permission to run their trails. Everyone else mostly just trespasses all over the place because they saw a trail there or we used to run that way years ago. Most do not have a clue on whos land they are on.

 

But back on track Saskatchewan as a Province and the Sledders in it banded together and using a Val Tag system have made Saskatchewan a tourist destination with trails that rival the best from any province. All sledders stopped thinking of me me and started thinking of everyone else. My hat is off to them and I will continue to ride there every year dropping my dollars along the way! How this relates to Panther I'm not sure but he thinks it does.

[dweese]

Dweeb and 02 with their $12,000 machines and $4000 trailers rust away in their green back yards five years from now. Call me up north here I might need a cheap used machine for my farm, I won’t be using val tags or insurance by then anyway.  Smile !!

 

 

You still here? typical keyboard tough guy, always coming back for more..... Its like crack to them...

 

Actually my sled is an 04 I paid $3000 for 3 years and I just picked up a brand new trailer for $1500, also have an 95 380 I picked up last year for $700 for the kids to ride along with me... As for rusting, doubt it, my area has had some of the best snow in years over the last 4 or 5 years, even 2 years ago when most people got washed out, we got slammed, and I've got the pictures to prove it... 

 

So someone who works for a franchise... (service ontario licence office) you do know they are privately owned tells you the province has to give advance notice and you believe this person as the gospel. Tell me the province has never increased fees without notice before. Many times the province has introduced a budget that says effective at midnight... not next week or next month.... effective immediately. Keep living your sense of entitlement. You are just so hard done by.

 

02 I hate to actually back the freeloader, but Service Ontario does give warnings on Val tag increases, just got mine in the mail. There was a letter in it telling me car tags go up $5 September 1. But I can save that $5 if I buy early, but only for the 2014 tag, can't save on a 2 year sticker... However, when they add the OFSC fee, I'm sure there will be a warning its coming, and since the fees always go up Sept 1, those with birthdays before might be able to seek out of it for one more year.

[Sasquatch777]

OK.  I guess I mis-read it.  My apologies.

BP

 

No problem its the faceless internet and sometimes how the printed word is just not the same as face to face.

[dweese]

But back on track Saskatchewan as a Province and the Sledders in it banded together and using a Val Tag system have made Saskatchewan a tourist destination with trails that rival the best from any province. All sledders stopped thinking of me me and started thinking of everyone else. My hat is off to them and I will continue to ride there every year dropping my dollars along the way! How this relates to Panther I'm not sure but he thinks it does.

 

People never see that...

 

Our 2 city run marinas do not pay for themselves and the city had to kick in $53,000 of tax payers money last year, which was less than $1 per person in the city 

 

Well all the old farts (our version of Pather340) got all up in arms, saying make those rich boaters pay their own way. Missing the big picture that the boaters who transit the area were bringing in over a million dollars a year to the city, helping to give people jobs, which create more income for the city in the long run.   

[Panther340]

Maybe this is an example how a person outside your box can add a point of view that you have completely glossed over, and instead you are stuck on a one track mind of val tags funds from other people . Big Pete highlighted the gas tax revenue potential,but many here immediately shot it down as a tougher sell to taxpayer and province.(and I will ignore the personal barbs pointed my way for now)

But from my perspective, being one of those outside the OFSC box, I see it as an easier sell. I as a taxpayer look at it this way, if the OFSC no longer had trails, then those customers that used buy gas to use those trails will no longer be buying that portion of gas and so those gas taxes would dissappear. So in essence you are only asking for a portion of the gas taxes that your trail volume of use represents. IF your sport dissappears the taxpayer loses the other larger percent of the gas tax that the province would of otherwise collected. For me that seems like a much easier sell job and a more fair way of getting more funds ( more dollars too maybe and without 2 year delay valtags would require.........I suspect the majority of Ontario people and politicians would not raise red flags about that funding model, the only negative folks would be the enviro nazis that would rather none of us used any gas. Wheras if you go down the val tag route, the very same people groups that came out of the wood work for bill 101 would be up in arms , trappers, fishermen, hunters, and yes even hobby farmer folks like me. (thank you Big Pete for that BILL 101 hearings link it was enlightening. )

[dweese]

Panther340 for once I actually agree with you. Part of the gas tax is the fairest way to go. No increased fees for those who don't use the system, and if it wasn't for the OFSC system those taxes would have never been collected anyways. And like it was pointed out, might actually bring more funds to the system than the linked val tag idea.

Was that route looked at? Good question, I wasn't at the meetings they had on this. Maybe it was, and the GOV said "NOT" and they had to look else where, no idea.

Would be interesting to know, if this idea was ever suggested... Maybe we should stick it in a email to the OFSC as a suggestion from this forum.

[Sasquatch777]

Maybe this is an example how a person outside your box can add a point of view that you have completely glossed over, and instead you are stuck on a one track mind of val tags funds from other people . Big Pete highlighted the gas tax revenue potential,but many here immediately shot it down as a tougher sell to taxpayer and province.(and I will ignore the personal barbs pointed my way for now)

But from my perspective, being one of those outside the OFSC box, I see it as an easier sell. I as a taxpayer look at it this way, if the OFSC no longer had trails, then those customers that used buy gas to use those trails will no longer be buying that portion of gas and so those gas taxes would dissappear. So in essence you are only asking for a portion of the gas taxes that your trail volume of use represents. IF your sport dissappears the taxpayer loses the other larger percent of the gas tax that the province would of otherwise collected. For me that seems like a much easier sell job and a more fair way of getting more funds ( more dollars too maybe and without 2 year delay valtags would require.........I suspect the majority of Ontario people and politicians would not raise red flags about that funding model, the only negative folks would be the enviro nazis that would rather none of us used any gas. Wheras if you go down the val tag route, the very same people groups that came out of the wood work for bill 101 would be up in arms , trappers, fishermen, hunters, and yes even hobby farmer folks like me. (thank you Big Pete for that BILL 101 hearings link it was enlightening. )

 

Get money from the gas tax is a great idea. I never shot it down in fact I have been in favor of it for many years now. You think it is a new idea? That argument to the Government has been there nearly as Long as the OFSC has existed. That and the many many millions the snowmobile industry generates each year in taxes for the government and stimulus to communitys all over Ontario. I used to have the stats around here some place that came from the OFSC about the moneys and one of them was the Gas tax. Again a great idea but it has been and as far as I know is still being lobbied! Still if people want to write and point that out to the government feel free.

 

The bitter truth is however that where is the money to come from. The government gave all theirs to the auto industry and bankers. It is extra money no matter how you look at it from a have not province. But maybe you will lobby for gas tax money to be spent on trails instead of an increase in Val Tags. You might if you think Val Tags are coming but if they are not you will do nothing. There in lies the problem with people in general. Till they are in trouble they care less about others in trouble. That fact is as old as mankind!

 

So now Val Tags are coming, will you lobby for the money to come from gas taxes instead of your val tag or will you only scream not my Val Tag I could care less about all the people in all the clubs who make up orginized sledding in Ontario and yes they exist even in your area or where you are retiring to.

 

I in my retirement years look to volunteering to help out the 4H club. I do not ride a horse or in any way shape or form farm in any way. I do know some who do and they need help, I like animals and the people who look after them so why not. Gives me something to do and it will make me feel good to help out.

[Panther340]

It was just free advice Sasquatch...........on how to lobby the Government for gas tax money from the perspective of a person not in your OFSC circle. To show you what points should be highlighted to convince folks like me ( eg that if OFSC closed down then that full gas tax cut would be missing from Government getting.) Big Pete articulated it well and convinced me.

 

As for me lobbying for me..........of course I do, it is exactly what everyone does. That is what OFSC is doing on your behalf , you want your sport and your pocketbook less effected with no further increases to trail permits costs ........... and I want mine less effected. The compromise and path of least resistance is getting piece of pie of gas tax. Which way your group chooses will determine which resitance groups you will face (same groups bill 101 faced. ). Selling it is your job not mine. Your selling of the val tags option did not convince me and it is not just the measely $15 or $20 I might get hit with ........it is the principal of it that I don't like and other non trail user taxpayers won't like , the optics are all wrong. The softer approach is gas tax route, but that is just my opinion.

[Sasquatch777]

It was just free advice Sasquatch...........on how to lobby the Government for gas tax money from the perspective of a person not in your OFSC circle. To show you what points should be highlighted to convince folks like me ( eg that if OFSC closed down then that full gas tax cut would be missing from Government getting.) Big Pete articulated it well and convinced me.

 

As for me lobbying for me..........of course I do, it is exactly what everyone does. That is what OFSC is doing on your behalf , you want your sport and your pocketbook less effected with no further increases to trail permits costs ........... and I want mine less effected. The compromise and path of least resistance is getting piece of pie of gas tax. Which way your group chooses will determine which resitance groups you will face (same groups bill 101 faced. ). Selling it is your job not mine. Your selling of the val tags option did not convince me and it is not just the measely $15 or $20 I might get hit with ........it is the principal of it that I don't like and other non trail user taxpayers won't like , the optics are all wrong. The softer approach is gas tax route, but that is just my opinion.

 

I only need to sell it to the province! Val Tags or Gas Tax! As Gas tax is and has been a lobby to the Government for some time, its now time to sell the Val Tags like so many other provinces are using to make money for the trails and the Province!

 

As far as money from my pocket goes a Val tag permit would cost me more money and I,m fine with that!

[Big Pete]

I have attached an excerpt from IASA survey which summarizes revenue sources by jurisdiction in Canada.  Saskatchewan has been used as an example of ValTag only revenue model that should be adopted by Ontario. On the surface is looks good but I have some questions. First, Sask has 10,000km of trails according to their survey and they raised approx $1.1 million in revenues from ValTags. If thats the only soucre of revenue for snowmobile trails that avaergaes $110 per KM.  From my club experience here in Ontario that would barely cover grooming expenses (fuel/wages/repairs) let alone trail developement and maintenace and capital equipment. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned there are 48 clubs in Sask. Assuming on average there is 1 groomer per club (which would put the average Km per groomer slightly over 200 which is high), that puts approx 50 groomers on the snow. Using a 10 year replacement cycle that puts annual capital requirements at at least $1.0 million (5 groomers @ $200KM). So unless I am missing something there is a lot more money going into snowmobile funding than is being declared. I suspect. and I stand to be corrected, that the provincial govt is subsidizing snowmobile trail ops through general revenues.

 

The FFC proposal for Valtags would have raised the Valtag to $40 (with $25 going to the OFSC for a total of $440M). And if you think that is a hard sell, try funding the entire system from ValTag only revenue. Here are a couple of numbers from the OFSC publication Snowmobiling By The Numbers for 2011-2012. 165,000 estimated active number of snowmobilies (including work and utlity sleds).  Total Cost to operate the system (OFSC and club expenses ) $19.1 Million. If the numbers are accurate that puts a Valtag at $115. My opinion is that under a system like this you would be lucky to see 120,000 registered sleds. You could probably cuts costs pretty easily down to $15-16 million which puts the ValTag at $125-135 per year, no exception/exemptions/discounts allowed. It also assumes that you could maintain the same volunteer contributions to the system (doubtful). Now sell that to the prov govt.

 

Of course, if the prov govt had not blown a billion dollars on a couple of gas plants, a few hundred million on Orng, or billions of bollars on Grenn Energy, we could all snowmobile for free, forever. But thats another thread.

 

 

Rev by Jurisdiction-Can.doc

[Sasquatch777]

I have attached an excerpt from IASA survey which summarizes revenue sources by jurisdiction in Canada.  Saskatchewan has been used as an example of ValTag only revenue model that should be adopted by Ontario. On the surface is looks good but I have some questions. First, Sask has 10,000km of trails according to their survey and they raised approx $1.1 million in revenues from ValTags. If thats the only soucre of revenue for snowmobile trails that avaergaes $110 per KM.  From my club experience here in Ontario that would barely cover grooming expenses (fuel/wages/repairs) let alone trail developement and maintenace and capital equipment. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned there are 48 clubs in Sask. Assuming on average there is 1 groomer per club (which would put the average Km per groomer slightly over 200 which is high), that puts approx 50 groomers on the snow. Using a 10 year replacement cycle that puts annual capital requirements at at least $1.0 million (5 groomers @ $200KM). So unless I am missing something there is a lot more money going into snowmobile funding than is being declared. I suspect. and I stand to be corrected, that the provincial govt is subsidizing snowmobile trail ops through general revenues.

 

The FFC proposal for Valtags would have raised the Valtag to $40 (with $25 going to the OFSC for a total of $440M). And if you think that is a hard sell, try funding the entire system from ValTag only revenue. Here are a couple of numbers from the OFSC publication Snowmobiling By The Numbers for 2011-2012. 165,000 estimated active number of snowmobilies (including work and utlity sleds).  Total Cost to operate the system (OFSC and club expenses ) $19.1 Million. If the numbers are accurate that puts a Valtag at $115. My opinion is that under a system like this you would be lucky to see 120,000 registered sleds. You could probably cuts costs pretty easily down to $15-16 million which puts the ValTag at $125-135 per year, no exception/exemptions/discounts allowed. It also assumes that you could maintain the same volunteer contributions to the system (doubtful). Now sell that to the prov govt.

 

Of course, if the prov govt had not blown a billion dollars on a couple of gas plants, a few hundred million on Orng, or billions of bollars on Grenn Energy, we could all snowmobile for free, forever. But thats another thread.

 

Yep I got about 125 a Val tag as well. That gives Ontario enough to support its trails.  I'm not sure what these wages you speak of are!  I thought groomer drivers where volunteer! If they are not then we have a problem! As far as Saskatchewan goes hey it is what it is! Ontario puts money into the OFSC so maybe Sask does as well.

[Panther340]

So now the truth comes out OFSC was looking at $40 val tags and $25 going to OFSc so that is a LOT different than the $15 some here pretended was the number. And now with Big Pete's clarification we see that after OFSC got their foot in the door of val tags they would actually need closer to $100 .................and this from MANY who do not use the trails... NOT A CHANCE !!  Thousands like me will not register their sleds when it costs more than their car !

 

TRY SELLING THAT TO GOVERNMENT ! No politician in their right mind would try to push that thru, I guess when i said "devious" OFSC methods in previous post, I was being quite accurate ! They are going to try to sell this to government without telling the whole story and they will pretend they represent all snow machine owners !

[sledjunk]

Take a breath!!!  Nobody suggested that the OFSC is currently trying to fund the trails completely through val tags.

 

At the AGM last year, the presentation was looking at a $15 contribution from val tags.  I have not heard anything official that this figure has changed.

[Mossy]

 Panther I can see both side as I have been following this post since it started. But as it goes on I am reading between the lines and realizing you are a bitter person. You complain that the O.F.S.C is trying to steal your money but you don't pay for a pass. Give your head a shake! You are looking like the fool here. Everytime someone posts here you post something so negative it has me wondering why you come here to begin with.

 Please back it down a notch!

[apeXMAN]

 Panther I can see both side as I have been following this post since it started. But as it goes on I am reading between the lines and realizing you are a bitter person. You complain that the O.F.S.C is trying to steal your money but you don't pay for a pass. Give your head a shake! You are looking like the fool here. Everytime someone posts here you post something so negative it has me wondering why you come here to begin with.

 Please back it down a notch!

X2 Panther's new avatar

[Panther340]

Well Mossy I come here because I own a snowmachine and since this website is not for the exclusive use of just OFSC trail riders, I thought it important to bring the perspective of snowmachine owners that don't use or need the OFSC trails. Because that point of view is sadly lacking. Now you may not agree with my point of view and then conclude it is negative because it puts up roadblocks and arguements that lessen your arguements , but that is what life is about, compromise deciding how best to get an issue concluded with all the parties that it impacts.

Now I do see some on this site that are willing to look at the overall vision and end game that OFSC must go towards and realize that that end game will require far more than what OFSC is letting on in their "change" vision that they will try to sell at AGM and to politicians . YOu may not like that vision that Skidooboy and Big Pete have admitted is only outcome , but other posters here should not insult the rest of the non trail users with half truths and false statements and straw arguements.

 

As for the picture above Apeman posted, that is me shiting on devious OFSC . Where I come from those paddies are valuable fertilizer to grow things in, but if you prefer not to take the fertilizer then stick to your guns about "val tags' being the only option and watch your prized trails whither  one by one as OFSC dies a slow death and minority  Government sticks your val tag needs on back burner because they are too controversial to touch in next year and then even if they implement will require two years to get funds. Do you have three years life left in OFSC ..........I hope so for the tourism impact in my area .......... but I doubt it.

[Lep]

Take a breath!!!  Nobody suggested that the OFSC is currently trying to fund the trails completely through val tags.

 

At the AGM last year, the presentation was looking at a $15 contribution from val tags.  I have not heard anything official that this figure has changed.

SJ last ## I heard is double that plus a few loonies.....not Gosple....hear say.