How Other Provinces/States Fund Trails

[dweese]

bye bye

Does this mean your finally going to stop trolling?

[02Sled]

And the apples to oranges comparisions continues...and the hate on for the north too! Interesting though that your own regional OFSC debates has you arguing South should not pay for north when soyuth does not use the trails, yet here you argue the opposite.

 

Quite frankly Northern Ontario could easily make it as a province on its own, Prince Edward Island does . ...and then finally Toronto government decisions (and OFSC decisions) that effect the north, with absolutely no concept of issues ,could be made in north.  

Our resources, our hydro , our playgrounds are all wanted by the south and our self sufficency would be no different than how Manitoba does it.

 

keep dreaming...

[02Sled]

Hey I am not the one constantly jabbing that the north is basically subsidized by the south, you repeat it so often it shows your true feelings for north as leeches I guess. Even about OFSC north trails being too expensive , let alone our roads to resources etc etc.

And from my math there are very few non OFSC riders on this website……..so my voice and I guess Bucking Pig’s  end up representing the 100’s of thousands of non OFSC riders. We express our views because otherwise it is a circle jerk of people all with the same motive and solution thinking that they must be on the right track (val tags) because no one is complaining. Via your surveys etc. Meanwhile if the majority knew what pockets you are trying to pick they would realize that we ALREADY subsidize your sport immensely. But you fail to see that I am already paying for your sport and am willing to continue that reasonable level of taxation support for your bridges and trails…. but your greed knows no bounds even when province in dire straits. Now besides my taxes that pay for your sport and for parks and for arenas etc….. You want val tag money tooo!! You folks fret about a 30$ increase in trail permits but spend that much at Timmies in one week. Meanwhile downhill skiers spend twice or three times your annual trail permit for one season of skiing with no qualms.  ….if your sport can’t afford itself with all the government money it already gets , then it is your pockets that remainder should come from ! or else cut back on your services and trails to save money. Everyone else is doing it, time for OFSC to do it too. Comparing youselves to other provinces or states where government variables are entirely different is just a feel good exercise.

Is it okay then if we insist that the arena your kids play hockey in be self sustaining and you pay the actual operating costs as well as pay back the government for the construction costs? You claim we fret about the increased cost of $30 but so do you. Tell me you don't spend that at Timmies and according to you spend a pile of money just getting there.

 

You keep saying you are paying for our sport....we are paying for yours but we aren't bitching about it. Do you go hunting... fishing... the local ice rink... the local pool... we are paying for it but not using it, just you and your friends.  

[02Sled]

keep twisting my words to suit your greedy purposes. I have no problem with starting to pay for val tags if the money goes to do the val tag paperwork, just like a trailer permit etc,  but if the increase is just so OFSC gets a 20 or $30 cut, (which is exactly what OFSC wants) .....then you are stealing from my wallet more than I already give you in my taxes to support the sport.and all because you don't want to pay $20 or $30 more for trail permit next year.

But as it is we are just polarizing positions...........the difference is now I am determined and so the word will get around too this winter. I suspect once word gets out, there will be far more "freeloaders" on your trails and far more damage because they see it as something they paid for ...........but thats what you get for using a stick to get your customers instead of a carrot. bye bye

Get off the paying in your taxes baloney... don't forget you already pay a lot less in taxes than the rest of us. You pay less for your vehicle licence plates you don't pay for val tags for your sled and here is the real kicker.... don't forget the Northern Resident deduction on your income tax. That must be because you are so economically deprived in northern Ontario. I should call my MP and MPP and insist this be abolished and you pay the same tax rates as the rest of us.

[Bucking Pig]

Northern Resident Deduction only applies to those living north of 50. No roads, no doctors, no infrastructure. Probably does not apply to anybody on this site.

The lower rates for our licence plates was to help lessen the blow from the ridiculous gas prices we pay. Not whining, just saying.

Same for the sled Val tags, plus recognition that the snowmobile CAN be more than just a toy.

I am not going to argue my point here anymore, as we are all obviously polarized on the issue. There are good points being made by both sides here, in between the name calling, but I doubt either side will convince the other.

Whatever gets decided, it will be what it will be and one side or the other will not be happy, and will need to decide what they want to do about it. Have a happy summer.

BP

[dweese]

plus recognition that the snowmobile CAN be more than just a toy.

See now I'll support you on that one...

If your sled is being use to for other than recreational use, than yes, you shouldn't get dinged any extra on a val-tag. Same deal as farmers get a discounted fuel that doesn't include road tax for their equipment.

Trappers, are allowed to travel OFSC trails, along their trap lines without the need for a permit, so maybe there will be an exception for them, others who use their sled for no sport use, maybe able to get on bard with it.

[02Sled]

The lower rates for our licence plates was to help lessen the blow from the ridiculous gas prices we pay. Not whining, just saying.

 the snowmobile CAN be more than just a toy.

There are good points being made by both sides here,

Whatever gets decided, it will be what it will be and one side or the other will not be happy, and will need to decide what they want to do about it. Have a happy summer.

BP

Some of the best points you have actually made.... this goes to one point that was made long ago... no matter what you do you will never please everyone. Enjoy the rest of summer and when it rolls around to early October start praying to the great snow god...the love of winter and that white fluffy stuff is one thing we all still have in common.

[Panther340]

Yes it is bye….it looks like you have managed to chase off the few people on this site that don’t use their snowmachines for OFSC trail riding because your would rather ignore their point of view…..so now you can all pretend you represent the provinces wants and needs for snowmachines, and circle j&r$k@ each other on how to get more money out of taxpayers for your elite sport.  

[dweese]

Yes it is bye….it looks like you have managed to chase off the few people on this site that don’t use their snowmachines for OFSC trail riding because your would rather ignore their point of view…..so now you can all pretend you represent the provinces wants and needs for snowmachines, and circle j&r$k@ each other on how to get more money out of taxpayers for your elite sport.

Glad to be of service and thanks in advance for your finacial support.

[Sasquatch777]

keep twisting my words to suit your greedy purposes. I have no problem with starting to pay for val tags if the money goes to do the val tag paperwork, just like a trailer permit etc,  but if the increase is just so OFSC gets a 20 or $30 cut, (which is exactly what OFSC wants) .....then you are stealing from my wallet more than I already give you in my taxes to support the sport.and all because you don't want to pay $20 or $30 more for trail permit next year.

But as it is we are just polarizing positions...........the difference is now I am determined and so the word will get around too this winter. I suspect once word gets out, there will be far more "freeloaders" on your trails and far more damage because they see it as something they paid for ...........but thats what you get for using a stick to get your customers instead of a carrot. bye bye

 

LOL! As if you even know what the Government does with any money you give them. But the reality is us in the North have had our Val Tag subsidized by the South for a long time now. You seem to think it is unfair for your money to subsidize anything you do not use. Yet your OK with the South subsidizing your Val Tag which they do not use. If that is twisting your words around then so be it!

 

As far as getting more tresspassers out on the trails. Please do! It will only help the Val Tag cause and prove that a huge amount of so called non users of the trails actually do use them.

[Sasquatch777]

Yes it is bye….it looks like you have managed to chase off the few people on this site that don’t use their snowmachines for OFSC trail riding because your would rather ignore their point of view…..so now you can all pretend you represent the provinces wants and needs for snowmachines, and circle j&r$k@ each other on how to get more money out of taxpayers for your elite sport.  

 

This thread was about how other provinces pay for the trails. Yet it has been turned into the North South thing again by you. You use your sled for recreation not for work yet you think you should not pay a Val Tag fee. You are just like the rest of us a recreational rider. Bucking Pig has made more sense and brought up valid points that many have agreed to. You on the other hand have attacked, whined and ranted. In the end you resort to circle jerk insults as a means to win everyone over. You just make so many hope for Val Tags just to giggle knowing somewhere in Ontario you are throwing a fit!

[Sasquatch777]

Northern Resident Deduction only applies to those living north of 50. No roads, no doctors, no infrastructure. Probably does not apply to anybody on this site.

The lower rates for our licence plates was to help lessen the blow from the ridiculous gas prices we pay. Not whining, just saying.

Same for the sled Val tags, plus recognition that the snowmobile CAN be more than just a toy.

I am not going to argue my point here anymore, as we are all obviously polarized on the issue. There are good points being made by both sides here, in between the name calling, but I doubt either side will convince the other.

Whatever gets decided, it will be what it will be and one side or the other will not be happy, and will need to decide what they want to do about it. Have a happy summer.

BP

 

ya I'm pretty far North yet once I cross the Border into Manitoba I'm in the south, Im at the same Latitude as the Most northern part of Hwy 11. Only a few small town above 50 Lat. in Ontario.

 

Now as I have said I'm way North in Ontario terms but Nipigon is about level with the Canada US border of the Western part of our country. Most of them are above the 50th In fact last year I did most of my snowmobiling way above the 50th Closer to the 55th. You meet some of the nicest people in the true North.

[Sasquatch777]

Comparing youselves to other provinces or states where government variables are entirely different is just a feel good exercise.

 

Government variables? Is that Gobbly Gook for I don't want it so it can't work here and I'll throw out whatever try to make it sound intelligent. Talk about a backward thought process! If the whole world stopped moving forward based on other ideas we would still be chasing after food with sticks and making fires with rocks. Copying and learning from others is how the world works.

[Big Pete]

Like Sasquatch, I am tried of every discussion breaking down into a North vs South argument with nothing accomplished except to further polarize opinions. To try and bring this thread back on topic I would propose the following. First some background. In one of the first OFSC communications on FFC by Pres. Brenda, she referenced a study that was completed by the International Assocaition of Snowmobile Administrators which looked at how snowmobiling was funded in every jurisdiction in North America. The study was published in June 2012 so the findings are current. One of the biggest differences between snowmobiling funding in Canada vs the US is that of the 18 jursidictions surveyed in the US, 13 of them receive a share of the State Gas Tax. The largest snowmobile network is Minnesota at 22,364 miles (approx 36,000 km) and received $6.8MM is gas tax revenue in 2012. Across the 13 jurisdictions that receive gas tax revenue, the total snowmobile funding in 2012 was $17.4MM and ranged from a low of $63M in North Dakota to a high of $6.8MM in Minnesota. 5 jursidictions received in excess of $1.0MM. 

 

The reason I point this out is rather that trying to change the current val tag arrangement (significant cause of tension between North & South), should the OFSC be chasing a share of Gas Tax revenues in Ontario. All of the jursidictions in the US use some formula based on registered sleds, average fuel consumption and a per gallon rate. Rather than use total registered sleds I would propose that the sled count be based on the number of permits sold. That way unpermitted sleds could not argue they have a right of access to OFSC trails becuase of Gas Tax sudsidies. Only the fuel purchased by bonafide OFSC permit holders would be counted (maintains the User Pay Principle). Politically, I see this as an easier sell since we would not be asking for any new fess or charges but only a share of existing revenues.

 

Not exactly sure what the actual provincial taxes are per litre but using say 55,000 permit holders and say an average of 400 litres of fuel per season at $0.10 per litre would equate to $2.2MM annually. The best estimate I have seen for val tag revenue under FFC was approx $400M so there is a much bigger bang. Coupled with some tighter controls on how projects are funded provincially (Groomer Purchases, Trail funding, bridge replacement/repair), there could be significant impact on the clubs funding.

 

What I like about this proposal is that it is relatively simple and transparent. Nobody is trying to take money out of somone elses pocket and it does not impact any other program.

 

Any thoughts.

 

PS: If someone can tell me how to attach a pdf file I can post the entire survey.

[dweese]

Wiki says Ontario gas tax is 14.7 cents per liter the Feds add 10 cent to that, plus we pay HST on that. Which actually goes against our tax code by charging tax on a tax, but the GOV does what it wants..

Toronto and other citys got excited few years back when they got to all share 2 cents of the gas tax, so if you could squeeze 1 cent from the GOV I think you would be doing well.

It's not a ba idea, but GOV has always been tight with the gas tax. So the val tag, will end up giving us more in reality.

[02Sled]

Like Sasquatch, I am tried of every discussion breaking down into a North vs South argument with nothing accomplished except to further polarize opinions. To try and bring this thread back on topic I would propose the following. First some background. In one of the first OFSC communications on FFC by Pres. Brenda, she referenced a study that was completed by the International Assocaition of Snowmobile Administrators which looked at how snowmobiling was funded in every jurisdiction in North America. The study was published in June 2012 so the findings are current. One of the biggest differences between snowmobiling funding in Canada vs the US is that of the 18 jursidictions surveyed in the US, 13 of them receive a share of the State Gas Tax. The largest snowmobile network is Minnesota at 22,364 miles (approx 36,000 km) and received $6.8MM is gas tax revenue in 2012. Across the 13 jurisdictions that receive gas tax revenue, the total snowmobile funding in 2012 was $17.4MM and ranged from a low of $63M in North Dakota to a high of $6.8MM in Minnesota. 5 jursidictions received in excess of $1.0MM. 

 

The reason I point this out is rather that trying to change the current val tag arrangement (significant cause of tension between North & South), should the OFSC be chasing a share of Gas Tax revenues in Ontario. All of the jursidictions in the US use some formula based on registered sleds, average fuel consumption and a per gallon rate. Rather than use total registered sleds I would propose that the sled count be based on the number of permits sold. That way unpermitted sleds could not argue they have a right of access to OFSC trails becuase of Gas Tax sudsidies. Only the fuel purchased by bonafide OFSC permit holders would be counted (maintains the User Pay Principle). Politically, I see this as an easier sell since we would not be asking for any new fess or charges but only a share of existing revenues.

 

Not exactly sure what the actual provincial taxes are per litre but using say 55,000 permit holders and say an average of 400 litres of fuel per season at $0.10 per litre would equate to $2.2MM annually. The best estimate I have seen for val tag revenue under FFC was approx $400M so there is a much bigger bang. Coupled with some tighter controls on how projects are funded provincially (Groomer Purchases, Trail funding, bridge replacement/repair), there could be significant impact on the clubs funding.

 

What I like about this proposal is that it is relatively simple and transparent. Nobody is trying to take money out of somone elses pocket and it does not impact any other program.

 

Any thoughts.

 

PS: If someone can tell me how to attach a pdf file I can post the entire survey.

 

The concept in some ways makes sense however I wonder how amenable to this the province would be. We used to be able to get a rebate on fuel for boats and they cancelled that. There is overhead associated with administration and the province is currently strapped for cash. It would be asking the province to divert current revenue in an alternate direction which means ultimately they would need to increase revenue from somewhere. No silver bullet unfortunately,

[Big Pete]

Dweese and 02, I have no misconception about the willingness of the provincial govt to simply hand over a bag of cash just becasuse the OFSC came calling one day. What will need to be pointed out to them is the importance, both economically and politically, this investment could be. From the 2011/12 Ontario Snowmobiling By The Numbers, annual economic activity generated by OFSC snowmobile trails is $1.2 billion. In addition spending by snowmobilers provides annual provincial tax revenue of $112 million. So a return of say $2-3 million dollars to help support organized snowmobiling would be in their own best interest. And lets not forget that a lot of this economic activity occurs in the rural parts of the province where the current govt is somewhat challenged for support. I think everyone can agree that snowmobiling in Ontario is significantly more attractive with a province wide interconnected network of trails vs a fragmented unconnected network. The financial challenges facing the OFSC will/has put the network at risk as well as the economic benefits accruing to the province.

 

I would also be communicating that we understand the current financial realities facing the province which is why we are not looking for 100% of the gas tax but simply a fair share. If the prov tax is $0.14 per litre, then $0.07 would be fair and equitable.  When combined with the 63,929 seasonal and 9,347 classic permits sold in 2011/12 and an estimated fuel useage of 400 litres (I am going to leave out the 786,010 litres of fuel used by club/association groomers during the 2011/12 season for now), the gas tax contribution to the OFSC would be apprx $2.0 million.

 

Finally I would reference a letter from Mr Greg Sorbara, Campaign Chair, Ontario Liberal Party dated Sept 7, 2007 to Mr Paul Shaugnessy, Executive Director, OFSC, and I quote,

 

"The Ontario Liberal Party wishes to confirm its continued support of the OFSC in achieving its essential mandate effectively and efficiently. I am therefore pleased to confirm that we would support a new 3 part strategy as follows:

 

First, we would make an immediate $3 million funding contribution towards 2--7-2008 OFSC operational expenditures to be delivered using the proven accountability processes already well established;

 

Second, we would develop a sustainable funding program for susequent snowmobile seasons which will allow the OFSC to plan with confidence for continued success over the longer term; and

 

Third, we would seek to appoint the Ministry of Tourism as the lead provincial contact for the OFSC in recognition of the important role the OFSC plays in terms of developing and maintaining a world class winter tourism product."

 

It is the second committment which should be levered to open negotiations regarding revenue sharing of gas taxes.

[Sasquatch777]

 

Not exactly sure what the actual provincial taxes are per litre but using say 55,000 permit holders and say an average of 400 litres of fuel per season at $0.10 per litre would equate to $2.2MM annually. The best estimate I have seen for val tag revenue under FFC was approx $400M so there is a much bigger bang. Coupled with some tighter controls on how projects are funded provincially (Groomer Purchases, Trail funding, bridge replacement/repair), there could be significant impact on the clubs funding.

 

What I like about this proposal is that it is relatively simple and transparent. Nobody is trying to take money out of somone elses pocket and it does not impact any other program.

 

Any thoughts.

 

PS: If someone can tell me how to attach a pdf file I can post the entire survey.

 

Gas tax is only a small part of the take the Government gets off Sledders. The Government does put back into sledding but it has always been a fight. Course if you can get them to give up the gas tax that sleds and groomers burn that now goes into roads and highways that would be great. Trouble is they would have to raise tax on gas to cover it as they now take all the money and use it elsewhere. Not sure how the non OFSC riders would feel about even more of their tax more going into the trails.

 

So Val Tag or gas tax Panther will be pissed because its coming out of his pocket.

[Viperules700]

Gas tax on sleds why! just put in a tank and order dyed gas. It is an off road vechicle. No one looks in sled tank for died fuel anyway's! This way you save enough on gas to buy a permit! Now my secret is out!

[Canuck]

Thanks for the information regarding taxes (with the exception of VR700's last comment, lol   )

 

It's interesting that today's discussion is so similar to the year 2000 conversations regarding Bill 101.

 

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/committee-proceedings/committee_transcripts_details.do?locale=en&Date=2000-09-08&ParlCommID=8&BillID=638&Business=Bill+101%2C+Motorized+Snow+Vehicles+Amendment+Act%2C+2000&DocumentID=19560#P272_74273

 

Quite the battle (for lack of a better word) in 2000.

[dweese]

Big Pig, I totally agree with you. Ontario gas tax is there to help pay for roads. Since we are paying the tax and not using roads we as selders should get some of it back to support our system. Not being involved at the higher levels of the OFSC I can't say why the system hasn't looked in to it.

[Bucking Pig]

ya I'm pretty far North yet once I cross the Border into Manitoba I'm in the south, Im at the same Latitude as the Most northern part of Hwy 11. Only a few small town above 50 Lat. in Ontario.

 

Now as I have said I'm way North in Ontario terms but Nipigon is about level with the Canada US border of the Western part of our country. Most of them are above the 50th In fact last year I did most of my snowmobiling way above the 50th Closer to the 55th. You meet some of the nicest people in the true North.

What's your point?  I do not recall making any North vs South arguments.  Somebody was pointing out all the "breaks" that Northern residents got, I was just clarifying things for them.

I think you've made as many North vs South arguments as anybody, including whatever it is this is trying to say.

 

Do I consider Nipigon to be in Northern Ontario?  Bloody right I do!  I don't really care where it sits in relation to Manitoba.

[02Sled]

Dweese and 02, I have no misconception about the willingness of the provincial govt to simply hand over a bag of cash just becasuse the OFSC came calling one day. What will need to be pointed out to them is the importance, both economically and politically, this investment could be. From the 2011/12 Ontario Snowmobiling By The Numbers, annual economic activity generated by OFSC snowmobile trails is $1.2 billion. In addition spending by snowmobilers provides annual provincial tax revenue of $112 million. So a return of say $2-3 million dollars to help support organized snowmobiling would be in their own best interest. And lets not forget that a lot of this economic activity occurs in the rural parts of the province where the current govt is somewhat challenged for support. I think everyone can agree that snowmobiling in Ontario is significantly more attractive with a province wide interconnected network of trails vs a fragmented unconnected network. The financial challenges facing the OFSC will/has put the network at risk as well as the economic benefits accruing to the province.

 

I would also be communicating that we understand the current financial realities facing the province which is why we are not looking for 100% of the gas tax but simply a fair share. If the prov tax is $0.14 per litre, then $0.07 would be fair and equitable.  When combined with the 63,929 seasonal and 9,347 classic permits sold in 2011/12 and an estimated fuel useage of 400 litres (I am going to leave out the 786,010 litres of fuel used by club/association groomers during the 2011/12 season for now), the gas tax contribution to the OFSC would be apprx $2.0 million.

 

Finally I would reference a letter from Mr Greg Sorbara, Campaign Chair, Ontario Liberal Party dated Sept 7, 2007 to Mr Paul Shaugnessy, Executive Director, OFSC, and I quote,

 

"The Ontario Liberal Party wishes to confirm its continued support of the OFSC in achieving its essential mandate effectively and efficiently. I am therefore pleased to confirm that we would support a new 3 part strategy as follows:

 

First, we would make an immediate $3 million funding contribution towards 2--7-2008 OFSC operational expenditures to be delivered using the proven accountability processes already well established;

 

Second, we would develop a sustainable funding program for susequent snowmobile seasons which will allow the OFSC to plan with confidence for continued success over the longer term; and

 

Third, we would seek to appoint the Ministry of Tourism as the lead provincial contact for the OFSC in recognition of the important role the OFSC plays in terms of developing and maintaining a world class winter tourism product."

 

It is the second committment which should be levered to open negotiations regarding revenue sharing of gas taxes.

Nothing essentially that I disagree with. The only hook being that with the province short on cash if they give us say $3M from the gas tax which is already ear marked for something else they need to replace that $3M and to do that they need to increase a tax or something somewhere.  

[02Sled]

Gas tax on sleds why! just put in a tank and order dyed gas. It is an off road vechicle. No one looks in sled tank for died fuel anyway's! This way you save enough on gas to buy a permit! Now my secret is out!

Easy for some people... not so easy for others.... TSSA is going after the storage tanks for gas and diesel for compliance. Eventually they will get to the smaller ones. Apart from that I'm not so sure that my house insurance would allow me to have a tank for gas storage. Then find someone to deliver in bulk in suburbia. Nice concept though. Good friend of mine is a farmer and has a tank but it is a very long way to go for a fill up.

[02Sled]

Big Pig, I totally agree with you. Ontario gas tax is there to help pay for roads. Since we are paying the tax and not using roads we as selders should get some of it back to support our system. Not being involved at the higher levels of the OFSC I can't say why the system hasn't looked in to it.

At one time gas tax in Ontario was dedicated to roads but if I recall correctly it was quite a number of years ago diverted into the provincial general coffers rather than a dedicated fund. Just like boaters got gas tax back at one point and that was cancelled.