How Other Provinces/States Fund Trails

[Canuck]

An email from Amsnow magazine got me thinking about how other states/provinces fund trails.  This is Maine's current/proposed "val tag" structure:

 

(this is from the email ----

 

Maine's snowmobile registration fee may increase $5 for residents and $22 for nonresidents after the House and Senate  passed a bill for the increase, according to the Press Herald.

The bill faces further votes, and it maybe vetoed by Gov. Paul LePage, who generally opposes fee increases.

L.D. 1263, sponsored by Rep. Stephen Stanley, D-Medway, would increase the annual registration fee from $40 to $45 for Maine residents and from $88 to $110 for nonresidents.

Nonresidents can purchase a three-day registration. That fee would increase from $43 to $50, under the bill.

Currently, $7 from each resident's fee goes to the Snowmobile Trail Fund, which is managed by the Maine Department of Agriculture, Conservation and Forestry. The additional $5 from each registration would go into that fund as well.

The increased could add $487,000 in revenue in the next fiscal year and an additional $638,000 in 2014-15.

The bill passed 97-40 in the House late Monday. All Democrats who were present voted for the measure and 13 Republicans joined them.

The Senate passed the bill 22-13 on Tuesday, with support from all Democrats and from Republicans Patrick Flood of Winthrop and Gary Plummer of Windham.

Neither vote reached the two-thirds majority necessary to override a veto: 101 votes in the House, 24 votes in the Senate.

The Snowmobile Trail Fund's revenue comes from two sources: registration fees and a small portion of the state's fuel tax.

Sen. David Dutremble, D-Biddeford, who spoke in favor of L.D. 1263 on Wednesday, said even with those sources, the fund covers only about 60 percent of the cost of grooming and maintaining snowmobile trails.

Dutremble said snowmobile clubs are asking him to support the measure.

The bill, as drafted, sought to increase the fee for residents from $40 to $60. It was amended before it passed through committee.

The original bill also would have created tax exemptions on some equipment related to snowmobile maintenance, but those were stripped.

Amsnow_June 2013

________________________

 

Being interested in whether there a "club" dues in addition, I dug around the Maine website (there are additional dues of approx $35  but they appear voluntary). Read one of their forums and noticed guys saying "I joined many clubs". Interesting. How many would voluntarily pay a higher val tag and then join two or three clubs @ $30-$35 each? Never thought about it, but suspect many would. Not stirring the Ontario pot, but it is interesting. 

 

 

Lastly, although dated (2011) it seems that Maine has seen an increase in snowmobile registrations. http://www.mesnow.com/pdfs/TrailsFundingReport.pdf

My favourite quote from the website: Common sense, courtesy and safety are the basis of snowmobiling regulations in the state of Maine. If you know the laws, respect other people's rights and snowmobile safely, you'll have fun, rather than problems.

 

Okay, maybe I liked this quote better: SPEED: There are no speed limits on Maine trails. Sledders are judged by the standard of "reasonable and prudent speed for the existing conditions". Reasonable means remembering that many families are out riding together, enjoying the outdoors. Slow down when you meet other sledders, ease up when you come to a curve, bridge or rise in the trail. If you are unable to control your sled enough to keep it to the right hand side of the trail and stop in a safe and prudent manner - you're speeding.

_________________________

 

There you have it. On the face of it, a common sense approach to responsibility - individual, club and Board of Governors.

 

 

 

[TRICKPaint]

Good topic!...

I think Michigan's is $45.00 now for a non resident.

[02Sled]

Saskatchewan

 

When a snowmobile owner purchases their registration, they also obtain compulsory liability insurance coverage in the amount of $200,000 (for damage their vehicle may cause to the property of others or injuries it may cause to other people). Snowmobile registrations can be purchased through one of over 400 SGI motor license issuers located in communities throughout Saskatchewan. An individual membership in the Saskatchewan Snowmobile Assoc, is $25 and gets copies of their magazine plus "other" member benefits.

 

Since 2005, all snowmobile registration fees collected by Saskatchewan Government Insurance have gone to the Saskatchewan Snowmobile Association Inc. (SSA) to fund its work maintaining provincial snowmobile trails and promoting safe snowmobiling. The SSA is responsible for undertaking this work through a Trail Management Agreement signed with Tourism, Parks, Culture and Sport (TPCS).

In 2008, the SSA asked for an increase in the registration fee from $40 to $78 to sustain the provincial snowmobile trail system.  A subsequent consultant's report agreed that an increase was needed and recommended a new fee of $90.

After further review by TPCS and consultation with the SSA, a fee increase was implemented.  As of November 1, 2009, the annual snowmobile registration fee increased to $70 per year.  Even with this increase, Saskatchewan continues to have the lowest fee in Canada to register a snowmobile and use a provincially-groomed trail system.

The registration and associated licence plate continues to be the snowmobile owner's permission to ride on the snowmobile trail system.

This $30 fee increase allows the SSA to improve and sustain snowmobiling in Saskatchewan by:

• establishing a long-term capital replacement fund for grooming equipment;
• improving grooming management and professional standards;
• increasing investments for snowmobile safety training and promotion;
• implementing a groomer tracking system using GPS technology; and
• improving reporting, accountability and performance measurements.

 

 

Looking at their web site you don't get a comprehensive view of all of their trails. The province is broken into 4 zones and if you want to view a trail you select the club and it shows you just their trail in a map format. It would appear that on average each club is responsible for 120 km. Similar to Ontario the number of trails increases significantly the closer you get to urban centres such as Regina. As you move further north into the area they call Zone 1 which is the north west quadrant of the province the trails become fewer and as for loops essentially non existent. Almost all of those trails are referred to as part of the Trans Canada trails and would be the equivalent of our TOP trails. This is one of those clubs in northern Saskatchewan.

 

http://www.sasksnow.com/PDFMap/Northern_Lights_109_2012_01_30_ALL%20TRAILS%20GPS_10_18_2012.pdf

 

It has been suggested that in northern Ontario people lost interest since the trails only go out of town and back into town and they don't have "loops". Not sure why the local  Sask. riders haven't lost interest or perhaps they have and these trails are primarily used by touring riders.

 

Everyone who registers a sled in Sask. is paying to support the trail system. It was interesting to note that in each zone there are a number of clubs which actually don't have any trails.

[apeXMAN]

In NY the interactive map they have is more useful.They have all kinds of info but at a price of $20 which to me sound reasonable with the all the additional info.Food,Gas Lodging etc watch youtube here   

And there site http://www.nysnowmobilewebmap.com/

Maybe one day our interactive map will all these layers

[Canuck]

The "parking" feature on the NY map is wonderful. From public parks, gas stations to waste transfer stations (with avail. parking). Good idea for those that trailer.

[apeXMAN]

Parking has always been a problem when I go somewhere new and if it wasn't for this forum I am sure I would have received lots of tickets on the tow vehicle over the years.But why is that they don't show  clubhouses,gas,lodging .I think that if our interactive map showed details it would be worth it for businesses to sponsor the map. Right now it shows 4 North adventure inns and 4 Moonbeam clubhouses in the middle of nowhere and is lacking any help full info. At $20 for the NY interactive map version and 75% goes to the clubs it would make cents to update the info on ours to show snow depths and some of the other use full data and would become a source of revenue from all the sponsors.         

[sledjunk]

That map looks great!  I can hear the naysayers now, though.  "We can't show the snowfall or someone might sue us!"

[skidooboy]

i have always appreciated the free maps from the ofsc and all districts but, i always wondered why they dont use this as a revenue source and sell the maps. they would sell advertizing space, promote sledder friendly establishments, and pay for the printing, and give more funds to the clubs, distrcicts, and the ofsc as a whole. pretty much everywhere you go in the states you buy the maps. and some are for pretty small areas, and cost 4-15.00. Ski

[Turbo Doo]

Great post Canuck..

[dweese]

NY state, uses a linked val tag system, I remember it being around $90 plus $25 to join a club. You didn't have to join a club, but it got you some other discounts if you did.

Actually was just reading thier website, seems the GOV is trying to reclassify Adirondack Park to wild forest. This would ban all motorized offroad vehicles in the park. it would even ban the used of motor boats on all the lakes as well. It sounds very screwed up to me, from what little is posted.

[Sasquatch777]

Saskatchewan http://www.sasktrails.ca/strategic_planning_report.pdf

 

This is their trail system http://www.sasksnowmobiling.sk.ca/index.php/trails23

 

Not sure where you get 120kms but the Hudson bay club is 676 kms and Candle lake is 363 kms. It and most others in Saskatchewan have lots of loop trails and other trails that are not part of the trans canada trail. Until Thunder bay closed their trails there was a true trail that would take you across most of Canada. The hole has gotten a bit larger since!

 

http://www.sasksnow.com/PDFMap/Hudson_210_2012_07_11_GPS_%20ALL_TRIALS_Page1_10_23_2012.pdf rode most of these trails.

 

http://www.sasksnow.com/PDFMap/Hudson_210_2012_07_11_GPS_%20ALL_TRIALS_Page2_10_23_2012.pdf Bioler Junction has a huge boiler they used for heat years back.

 

Pasquia Snow Goers Club does 257kms http://www.sasksnow.com/PDFMap/PasquiaGPS2013.pdf Yes I've been to Homers hut.

 

Nipawin does 235 kms

 

363 kms for candle lake club. http://www.sasksnow.com/PDFMap/Candle_Lake_205_2010_08_06_GPS_All_Trails.pdf i rode most of them. The round the lake trail was an awesome ride.

 

 

 

I rode these trails last winter and had a blast. I have rode other clubs trails and this winter coming up hope to do a 8 day Manitoba Saskatchewan ride of around 1600 miles or 2500kmsish. Can hardly wait! I have done a 800kms round the District in my area a few times and it just wets the whistle for more, much more!

 

Now with 10,000 kms of trails (saskatchewan) and 48 clubs that works out to 208 kms per club average. Of course some clubs as I have mentioned have way more then 200kms so some would have way less like the Springside club with 38kms or so. Very small club that one but they work hard with what they have. So 02 your quick look at Saskatchewan was just that a very quick you missed a lot of the trails. You really have to look at the trail map of Saskatchewan as a whole. Loops and non cross Canada trails all over the place.

 

The reason Saskatchewan is doing so well is they went to the Val tag system and saved the trails and sledding in the province. Sask was on the brink of collapse till that point. Ontario can be saved in the same manner if the good ole boys would dig their heads out of the sand.

 

The OFSC has a graph that shows as permit prices rose less passes sold. The FFC contains that graph. But again I know thats not it! Its job loss, its no loop trails, its tresspassers, its anything and everything but! LOL! Now if you want to look at Manitoba they have 50 something clubs 36,000 permits and only a 50% sled permit sales ratio. Hmmm seems to be a trend that a val tag system can fix to me.

 

What is nice about the Sask trails if you have a Manitoba pass you can ride their trails and vise versa. So my 125 Dollar pass gives me access to not only the Manitoba 12,000 kms of trails but also the 10,00kms of Sask trails. That is value!

[Panther340]

Yep it fixes the problem for the trail rider sport.........and totally screws those of us that don't use the OFSC trails !!! What is the true number of OFSC trail members compared to how many val tags sold ? Now go poll all those non trail owners and ask them if they are willing to pay for your sport. !

[dweese]

Yep it fixes the problem for the trail rider sport.........and totally screws those of us that don't use the OFSC trails !!! What is the true number of OFSC trail members compared to how many val tags sold ? Now go poll all those non trail owners and ask them if they are willing to pay for your sport. !

Would you give it up... We are all well aware of your position on the topic... But as its been pointed out, it's most likely comming, so stop being negative and try and proactive. You're going to have to pay this, so why not get your buddies together, form a club and start getting your areas share of the permit sales. Opening up trails, will being people to your area, increasing tourism, and helping your local economy.

[Sasquatch777]

Would you give it up... We are all well aware of your position on the topic... But as its been pointed out, it's most likely comming, so stop being negative and try and proactive. You're going to have to pay this, so why not get your buddies together, form a club and start getting your areas share of the permit sales. Opening up trails, will being people to your area, increasing tourism, and helping your local economy.

 

Well said dweese!

 

The North  pays nothing for a Val Tag while all of Southern Ontario does. I think its time the North pays for val tags just like the south. Now if the government wants to give that money to the OFSC then bonus!

[Panther340]

Why would I just shut up..........YOUR TRYING TO TAKE MONEY FROM MY POCKET SO THAT LESS MONEY HAS TO COME FROM YOUR POCKETTO ENJOY YOUR SPORT!...I just want to use my machine the way I do now.....WITHOUT YOUR TRAILS.......YOU CHOSE A SPORT THAT EXPANDED TO QUICK AND NOW IS HITTING ROUGH TIMES.......THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, LEAVE MY WALLET ALONE !!

[Canuck]

Panther 340,

 

The Provincial Government is giving Toronto $1.4 billion to add 3 stops on a subway line. If I give you a bunch of email addresses for the  Ontario  gov't, can you sink your teeth into them as well? lol.

 

Your point is taken, Panther 340. Val tags have been free up north and you always want it to remain free. For your sake, I actually hope that if there is a new formula for val tags, the north pays "less". But we need your money .... to pay for our subway extension.

 

(ps - that subway extension is so far east, I'll use it about as often as you will. Never. But we can't object to funding it because there's no direct benefit to us. Fund it; and next time it will be your turn. That's how we move ahead)

[dweese]

Why would I just shut up..........YOUR TRYING TO TAKE MONEY FROM MY POCKET SO THAT LESS MONEY HAS TO COME FROM YOUR POCKETTO ENJOY YOUR SPORT!...I just want to use my machine the way I do now.....WITHOUT YOUR TRAILS.......YOU CHOSE A SPORT THAT EXPANDED TO QUICK AND NOW IS HITTING ROUGH TIMES.......THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, LEAVE MY WALLET ALONE !!

I guess it's clear than, your not willing to make a small investment to help your local economy.

As for hands in someone's wallet. Yours are a lot deaper in mine already thanks.

[02Sled]

Why would I just shut up..........YOUR TRYING TO TAKE MONEY FROM MY POCKET SO THAT LESS MONEY HAS TO COME FROM YOUR POCKETTO ENJOY YOUR SPORT!...I just want to use my machine the way I do now.....WITHOUT YOUR TRAILS.......YOU CHOSE A SPORT THAT EXPANDED TO QUICK AND NOW IS HITTING ROUGH TIMES.......THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, LEAVE MY WALLET ALONE !!

Then show your outrage of government dipping into your pocket for the other recreational activities they support with money from your pocket. Do you use

• the National or Provincial Parks - hope you use each and every single park since they are funded by your tax money from your pocket - The next time you are on Beausoleil Island in Honey Harbour I'll buy you a drink
• the Trent Severn Waterway - lots of recreational boaters use this regularly - gee sounds like snowmobiles.... not every boater uses the Trent but everyone in Canada pays to support it. Non boaters included.
• The Rideau Canal - just like the Trent

Send your MP a letter since those waterways and the National Parks come out of your federal tax money.

 

Where is your outrage at all those people in southern Ontario subsidising phone service to that guy that lives in sparsley populated parts of northern Ontario at the end of a long road and he's the only one on that road. Do you really think that the monthly rate he pays to Bell comes close to covering the cost of running that cable a few miles just for him?

 

I wish the government would stay out of my pocket when they pay for roads where you live that I will never drive on. Don't bring up that Trans Canada Highway garbage about trucks moving goods. I'm talking about all those secondary roads that my money subsidises. Don't forget to stay out of my pocket when I subsidise fisheries and water management in Northern Ontario as well. That game warden is paid for by everyone in Ontario, not just hunters and fishermen. Get out of my pockets! I don't hunt. Why should I pay for this.

 

Believe it or not there is socialism in Ontario and Canada. The list of things that are subsidised that are recreational is extensive. Got a hockey arena in your area? Sure hope you use it since you pay for it whether you use it or not. Want to bet there would have been federal and/or provincial $ put into the construction. Gee I just paid for part of your local recreational arean I will never use.

 

I guarantee that if money from the taxpayers of southern Ontario were to stop flowing to pay for the services in northern Ontario you would feel a much more signficant impact than the other way around.

[Panther340]

And the apples to oranges comparisions continues...and the hate on for the north too! Interesting though that your own regional OFSC debates has you arguing South should not pay for north when soyuth does not use the trails, yet here you argue the opposite.

 

Quite frankly Northern Ontario could easily make it as a province on its own, Prince Edward Island does . ...and then finally Toronto government decisions (and OFSC decisions) that effect the north, with absolutely no concept of issues ,could be made in north.  

Our resources, our hydro , our playgrounds are all wanted by the south and our self sufficency would be no different than how Manitoba does it.

[sledjunk]

And the apples to oranges comparisions continues...and the hate on for the north too! Interesting though that your own regional OFSC debates has you arguing South should not pay for north when soyuth does not use the trails, yet here you argue the opposite.

 

It strikes me that the only "hate" here is coming from you towards the south.

 

 

Quite frankly Northern Ontario could easily make it as a province on its own, Prince Edward Island does . ...and then finally Toronto government decisions (and OFSC decisions) that effect the north, with absolutely no concept of issues ,could be made in north.  

Our resources, our hydro , our playgrounds are all wanted by the south and our self sufficency would be no different than how Manitoba does it.

 

This 'Northern Ontario as its own province' BS has been floating around since the 1960's when I was growing up in the Sault.  If it was so viable, why hasn't it happened yet?  Maybe because it isn't nearly as viable as you think?

[dweese]

And the apples to oranges comparisions continues.

Actually your wrong there. The main points of 02's where all recreational facilities. Things that with out the support of non-users would never stay open on the support of users fees only. That arena down the road from you, where your kids played hockey or the beach you swam at in the summer, without help from people who don't use them, would never survive.

Panther, I don't know why you jump in and highjacked every thread that says anything about linked val tags, with your 'stay out of my wallet' rant, and how it's the OFSCs fault they are having the problems they are. We really don't care, it's a fact of life we all pay for things we don't use, recreational or not.

I did feel your pain early on in these types of discussions, but now I don't care. Your over and over how great the north is, and how the OFSC sucks had made me want to push harder to take money out of your wallet.

Your rants are wasted on us, because we are all pig headed OFSC users remember.. So why not be productive and direct you efforts at some one who cares, or could actually help your cause. But no, your most likely just an Internet troll with nothing else to do, and hating is easier then helping.

[Panther340]

Hey I am not the one constantly jabbing that the north is basically subsidized by the south, you repeat it so often it shows your true feelings for north as leeches I guess. Even about OFSC north trails being too expensive , let alone our roads to resources etc etc.

And from my math there are very few non OFSC riders on this website……..so my voice and I guess Bucking Pig’s  end up representing the 100’s of thousands of non OFSC riders. We express our views because otherwise it is a circle jerk of people all with the same motive and solution thinking that they must be on the right track (val tags) because no one is complaining. Via your surveys etc. Meanwhile if the majority knew what pockets you are trying to pick they would realize that we ALREADY subsidize your sport immensely. But you fail to see that I am already paying for your sport and am willing to continue that reasonable level of taxation support for your bridges and trails…. but your greed knows no bounds even when province in dire straits. Now besides my taxes that pay for your sport and for parks and for arenas etc….. You want val tag money tooo!! You folks fret about a 30$ increase in trail permits but spend that much at Timmies in one week. Meanwhile downhill skiers spend twice or three times your annual trail permit for one season of skiing with no qualms.  ….if your sport can’t afford itself with all the government money it already gets , then it is your pockets that remainder should come from ! or else cut back on your services and trails to save money. Everyone else is doing it, time for OFSC to do it too. Comparing youselves to other provinces or states where government variables are entirely different is just a feel good exercise.

[Sasquatch777]

Hey I am not the one constantly jabbing that the north is basically subsidized by the south, you repeat it so often it shows your true feelings for north as leeches I guess. Even about OFSC north trails being too expensive , let alone our roads to resources etc etc.

And from my math there are very few non OFSC riders on this website……..so my voice and I guess Bucking Pig’s  end up representing the 100’s of thousands of non OFSC riders. We express our views because otherwise it is a circle jerk of people all with the same motive and solution thinking that they must be on the right track (val tags) because no one is complaining. Via your surveys etc. Meanwhile if the majority knew what pockets you are trying to pick they would realize that we ALREADY subsidize your sport immensely. But you fail to see that I am already paying for your sport and am willing to continue that reasonable level of taxation support for your bridges and trails…. but your greed knows no bounds even when province in dire straits. Now besides my taxes that pay for your sport and for parks and for arenas etc….. You want val tag money tooo!! You folks fret about a 30$ increase in trail permits but spend that much at Timmies in one week. Meanwhile downhill skiers spend twice or three times your annual trail permit for one season of skiing with no qualms.  ….if your sport can’t afford itself with all the government money it already gets , then it is your pockets that remainder should come from ! or else cut back on your services and trails to save money. Everyone else is doing it, time for OFSC to do it too. Comparing youselves to other provinces or states where government variables are entirely different is just a feel good exercise.

 

 

100's of thousands of non OFSC riders? Really! There isn't even a 100,000 registered sleds in Ontario never mind Hundreds of thousands. But there is maybe 10,000 sled owners that pay nothing for a val tag in the North. Time to pay your fair share! I mean that is what your so mad about! The government might make you pay for a Val tag Just like the south does.

 

Your rant only makes me want Val Tag permits even more, never mind the 20 bucks the FFC is asking for on the Val tag. Heck you probably spend more at timmies in a week!

[Sasquatch777]

Why would I just shut up..........YOUR TRYING TO TAKE MONEY FROM MY POCKET SO THAT LESS MONEY HAS TO COME FROM YOUR POCKETTO ENJOY YOUR SPORT!...I just want to use my machine the way I do now.....WITHOUT YOUR TRAILS.......YOU CHOSE A SPORT THAT EXPANDED TO QUICK AND NOW IS HITTING ROUGH TIMES.......THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, LEAVE MY WALLET ALONE !!

 

No one told you to shut up! Of course you want to run your sled the way you do now. For Free! Val Tags should not be free for the North. Why are you dipping into the Southern riders pockets? Time to leave their pockets alone and man up! After all they are subsidizing you sled riding by paying for your Val Tag or do you think that it just got paid for by magic.

[Panther340]

keep twisting my words to suit your greedy purposes. I have no problem with starting to pay for val tags if the money goes to do the val tag paperwork, just like a trailer permit etc,  but if the increase is just so OFSC gets a 20 or $30 cut, (which is exactly what OFSC wants) .....then you are stealing from my wallet more than I already give you in my taxes to support the sport.and all because you don't want to pay $20 or $30 more for trail permit next year.

But as it is we are just polarizing positions...........the difference is now I am determined and so the word will get around too this winter. I suspect once word gets out, there will be far more "freeloaders" on your trails and far more damage because they see it as something they paid for ...........but thats what you get for using a stick to get your customers instead of a carrot. bye bye