Fred Quimby Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Look at District 16 and you will see that the OFSC is even trying to remove the bridges that were built. Not all the $ came from OFSC funding! Why send mega dollars to destroy the infrastructure rather than use them to create in the remaining districts? The OFSC wants to yank out the bridges because of liability! They approve the construction and in some cases the engineering of the bridges and if there is no maintenance or inspection of them going on then they want to be able to lift them out and possibly use them elsewhere. Most bridges are Ebert design from New Liskeard and can fit a wide variety of applications or be modified. Sounds like overkill from the liability standpoint but I can see the side of the coin from using the bridges elsewhere. However...what happens if that area opens up again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Look at District 16 and you will see that the OFSC is even trying to remove the bridges that were built. Not all the $ came from OFSC funding! Why send mega dollars to destroy the infrastructure rather than use them to create in the remaining districts? Reason for removing bridges could be a liability concern. I know when we do a trail reroute, we are told to take out any bridges that we put in place on the closed route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 There are still some bridges left on old no longer used trails around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Before you decide to lease or buy, you need to look at the type of groomer you are buying. If the power unit is a 4 wheel drive farm tractor with a Soucy track system installed leasing might be more enticing than if it was say an Ebert where it will likely always be a groomer. The Soucy system allows changing back to a tractor much easier so the lead is alot more resaleable. If it is a groomer only lead unit then purchase may be a better way to go as you would likely plan on keeping it for a longer time than leasing might allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I disagree. Sorry. Under insolvency .. That is the reason for a separate independent bank account that differs from your permit account. If the club uses fundraising money that they generated under their own means even under affiliation of OFSC, they still generated that money separate from the umbrella of the Federation. However...when a club folds, it's easier to hand over titles and rights to say..the OFSC who assumes legal responsibilities over the clubs Directors. That's why it's an easy sell to go this route, not mandatory. the club could say " we'll handle dissolving our own assets and dispersing of property", thusly paying off any creditors. However the Directors are on the hook to ensure it is done properly. A big gamble. It's just easier to hand over all the "keys" to the Federation. then they're on the hook! There's just two ways to go about it. In our case we have a clubhouse that was bought for a very very low price, from the County. If we were to dissolve, it does not become property of the Federation. It has to be dissolved by other means. I thought the same thing, and it should be the way it is, but dig deeper and you will find out that you are wrong, like I said, seek out a exec. from a club that has folded and you will get the story on how it really goes down when a club leaves the federation, unvoulintary er not. Right now Terrace Bay has the groomers locked up in the municiple garage, the municipality has money invested and the Federation wants the groomer. The federation seized all funds including fund raiser money. Do some research, you find all the same things I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I thought the same thing, and it should be the way it is, but dig deeper and you will find out that you are wrong, like I said, seek out a exec. from a club that has folded and you will get the story on how it really goes down when a club leaves the federation, unvoulintary er not. Right now Terrace Bay has the groomers locked up in the municiple garage, the municipality has money invested and the Federation wants the groomer. The federation seized all funds including fund raiser money. Do some research, you find all the same things I have. Sounds like there is a lot more going on than either of us know. In particular if they have locked up the groomers in the garage. It only takes about two weeks to get a Bailiffs order to repossess equipment if the OFSC in fact has a stake in them or controls the financing. Sounds like this one is headed to a courtroom or at least a mediator. Good luck to the club. I have edited my post after remembering some info I heard. Was this not the club that there was some improprieties going on with? I would stand corrected otherwise. I know there was some issues going on up that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traillover Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Hey Fred, If it was bought, no matter for what price, where did the $$$ come from to buy it??? I'm betting permit $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I thought the same thing, and it should be the way it is, but dig deeper and you will find out that you are wrong, like I said, seek out a exec. from a club that has folded and you will get the story on how it really goes down when a club leaves the federation, unvoulintary er not. Right now Terrace Bay has the groomers locked up in the municiple garage, the municipality has money invested and the Federation wants the groomer. The federation seized all funds including fund raiser money. Do some research, you find all the same things I have. The OFSC does not SEIZE funds from any body. Where do you get these stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Hey Fred, If it was bought, no matter for what price, where did the $$$ come from to buy it??? I'm betting permit $$$ I'm not sure i understand the context of your statement? Not all purchases come from permit dollars for a clubs acquisition of Capitol. There are many sources. OFSC grants, fundraising initiatives, Trillium grants, donations and gifts in kind..to name a few. Some clubs do very extensive fundraising that produces a lot of money. Wing nights, poker runs, swap meets, all seem to do well in the right market. Some clubs get municipal grants or gifts, low interest loans. The point is there are many sources other than permit dollars for the purchase of large ticket items..if that is what you're driving at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex8q4 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 What kind of depreciation is common for a $200,000 groomer over the first 3 years and how long are clubs typically holding onto them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Saul Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 What kind of depreciation is common for a $200,000 groomer over the first 3 years and how long are clubs typically holding onto them? A wing & a prayer with permit sales! ( by the time its paid its done ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 What kind of depreciation is common for a $200,000 groomer over the first 3 years and how long are clubs typically holding onto them? Hard to answer this question. Depends on the unit, with tractors keeping their value better because there is a high used demand. On farm tractors I trade them in at 2000 hours or 10 years. I typically get 50 percent of my value back towards a new one. Much better then cars that's for sure. Higher hours and or rougher shape will deprecate them faster. Most groomers would sell for 40 percent of original value after 10 years, if hours are 4000 or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 What kind of depreciation is common for a $200,000 groomer over the first 3 years and how long are clubs typically holding onto them? In 2011 PSSDbought a used 2007 groomer for 100,000 dollars it likely sold for twice that new 4 years before 2500 hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 In 2011 PSSDbought a used 2007 groomer for 100,000 dollars it likely sold for twice that new 4 years before 2500 hours I bet it is still worth 90 today. Great buy for the district. Groomers seem to deprecate faster then typical farm tractors. More demand for new units, then used ones maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 BRP is no longer in the grooming business. They sold that division to Prinoth who moved all the manufacturing to europe. As a side note never did see where BRP paid back the R&D grants when they sold the division and exported the jobs for this division or for that matter the atv or the sea doo divisions when they exported those jobs to Mexico. Did Camoplast not buy part of the grooming business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 What kind of depreciation is common for a $200,000 groomer over the first 3 years and how long are clubs typically holding onto them? I don't know about the depreciation part but I seem to reacll someone in an article in one of the magazines suggesting that the OFSC has determined their life span to be about 10 years then they are too costly to operate. Aren't almost all of these diesel engines? How can they only be a 10 year life span. If you think on average 2 to 3 months per year usage that is only 36 months of actual usage. Now I know somebody will say this is under adverse conditions but think about the farmers and how old their diesel tractors are that just keep on going and going like the energizer bunny. A friend of mine raises beef cattle on a small scale. Just a bit more than a hobby farm. He tells me he goes to the farm show to look at the tractors he will own in 15 years. Are we being over zealous in our perception of life expectancy? I don't know. Asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Well pulling those heavy drags around is Almost equivalent to plowing. Hard hours on diesel engines. This will cut an engine lifespan in half. So 5000 hours could be rebuild time. 500 hours a year is 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I would think you have to factor in the amount of time a groomer would start to spend in the shop as down time and reliability as age and hours creep up and although there is lots of life left, can the club afford the down time? Guess who'll be the first to complain when trails aren't groomed..and do you think they will care the groomer is down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Well pulling those heavy drags around is Almost equivalent to plowing. Hard hours on diesel engines. This will cut an engine lifespan in half. So 5000 hours could be rebuild time. 500 hours a year is 10 years. Okay... so I am asking the dumb questions since I simply don't know. Are the engines perhaps undersized then? I just look at the transport trucks as an example pulling very heavy loads around the country up and down hills. Or large boats pushing massive amounts of weight through the water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Okay... so I am asking the dumb questions since I simply don't know. Are the engines perhaps undersized then? I just look at the transport trucks as an example pulling very heavy loads around the country up and down hills. Or large boats pushing massive amounts of weight through the water not just the engine wear that has to be accounted for, anything that has to tow will have excessive wear on all driveline components, i am willing to bet that if looked at the transport trucks don't usually go ten years but 600000 miles isn't unheard of before an engine overhaul, the issue isn't just the engine when you approach 5000 hrs, it's little things on tractors. like electrical and hydralics, axle/bearing issues that can leave someone chasing there tail and can add up fast where repairing it no longer makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 It isn't uncommon at all to blow a hydraulic line as Bluer said. There is a lot of torque on the whole unit. Sure they are tough but the tractor style wasn't specifically designed for grooming like the BR's or Pisten Bully's for example. The Shur Tracs and kin were adapted for grooming. Look. At vibration, balance, weight transfer..operator care..off season storage..lots to age a groomer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 The OFSC does not SEIZE funds from any body. Where do you get these stories? Allow me to introduce myself - My name is Ron Jung and I am the sole remaining executive member of the Manitou Sno Drifters - Treasurer. This thread was passed to me by a fellow snowmobiler and Editor of Ontario News North for comment. Myself and few others have worked tirelessly for the past few years to keep the club in good standing with the OFSC. We had many successes of rerouting trails, installing bridges, acquiring a more modern groomer, getting signage up to the required standard and attracting riders and volunteers. In the end it proved too much work for too few people to be able to comply with the rightfully high standards required of membership. Your information is mostly correct. First a correction "officially NO MORE" is wrong - the corporation of Manitou Sno Drifters Inc is still solvent. There has been no effort to dissolve the corporation. Having said that we have no other directors or members and therefore have limited activity at this time. The corporation is being kept alive because we still have potential as a local club. Similar to many years ago before snowmobiling was organized to the degree it is today. If local sledders want to participate in the comradarie of snowmobiling and indeed there has been interest in this concept, they will still have a club as a formal mechanism to do this. We have new group of sledders emerging, those with long track sleds commonly referred to as mountain sleds which are allowing for riding in virgin snow. Local clubs can still exist without being members of the OFSC. However they do forfeit the many benefits of membership in the OFSC. We did receive a registered letter from the OFSC advising us that the club has been suspended from the OFSC. This is according the to OFSC Policy Manual which states that all the requirements of membership must be completed by June 1st of the current membership year. Due to the lack of an executive and volunteers we were unable to meet the requirements of membership in the OFSC. The policy manual is clear on "all assets purchased with trail permit dollars in whole or in part and/or funds raised in the name of snowmobiling must remain within the snowmobiling community, either by transfer to a neighbouring club and/or to the District Board for further assignment." This is a very important clause that all member clubs should be familiar with especially those with significant assets. The TS110 New Holland tractor and drag were returned to the Hornepayne club last season. I have worked with our neighbouring clubs as well as the new District 16 Executive in dealing with the distribution of the few other assets the club has. All of our trails D109A, D110A and local trails have been removed from all maps and all accessable signage has been removed. Most trails are now impassable due to brush, windfalls etc. There is still a tremendous amount of work left to do the meet the requirements of removing trails from the trail network. The Sno Drifters website has been closed for now. The OFSC has removed all references to the Sno Drifters trails from their website. This was all done to limit the risk to both the OFSC, the Manitou Sno Drifters and the snowmobiling fraternity. With the suspension we are also unable to sell permits. We encourage you to purchase your permits on line and direct your dollars to those clubs in the area where you ride. I also invite you to come to Manitouwadge. We do have several Bed and Breakfast establishments all of which are run by some of the best outdoors people in the area. They can offer you off trail riding experiences as well as tours along with their fine establishments. We also have very inexpensive housing which has attracted many seasonal and permanent residents. Some come for the summer months - ATVing, fishing,relaxing and some for the winter months of sledding, skiing on a first class hill, cross county skiing and other activities. Others have come for permanent residency to get away from the hustle and bustle, heat and humidity and expensive lifestyles of other communities. We are not a dead or a dying town. We are a town in transition and the residents will continue to show the resilience that have kept some us here for more than 50 years. Looking forward to seeing you this winter. I looked into this when I read it a couple years ago, I have also had communication through email with a treasurer of a former district 16 club as well as a few other exec members. Maybe SEIZED is not the correct word, maybe redirected er something is more to your liking. That is exactly where I got my stories from....Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Okay... so I am asking the dumb questions since I simply don't know. Are the engines perhaps undersized then? I just look at the transport trucks as an example pulling very heavy loads around the country up and down hills. Or large boats pushing massive amounts of weight through the water The problem is that at some point you make the groomer too heavy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy tires Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Leasing probably gets tough because I would imagine the residuals are low because of a limited market for used machines and the lessors don't want to get stuck with equipment at the end. Don't forget that this equipment works hard towing the drags over some pretty rough terrain and, in some cases, pretty isolated areas. A recovery from a break down in a remote part of the trail system could be pretty expensive, not to mention dangerous for the operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 You will find at the end of the day that the Federation has the right to everything, even the fund raising money. You raise money as a club, the thing is ur a member club to the federation, therefor ur raising money using the federation (long handled deal). Talk to any exec. of a club that has folded, they can realy enlighten u. Only if the club folds, however, if the club was to leave the OFSC and remain in operation as an incorporated entity that is still functioning, there would be a legal battle and in the end the OFSC would find they have no rights to equipment and or buildings that the club owns. What do you think would happen if district 17 left the OFSC, being they are 80km away from any other trails now, this could very well happen, do you think the ofsc would be able to repo all the equipment from all the clubs there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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