Canuck Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Got to thinking about the $10 per permit collected this year for groomer replacement and wondered whether organizations are buying, leasing or financing. From discussions on this forum, it seems that most are bought. Wouldn't more groomers be brought into the fold if they were financed or leased? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 might as well lease, no one will be going over on hours or miles groomed again this year. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 might as well lease, no one will be going over on hours or miles groomed again this year. Ski Leases suck, since the unit has to be in mint shape when retured. Groomer's last 5,000 hours so it makes sense to buy with current low interest rates, some are 0 percent now and most leases are 7 percent range. Tractors keep Thier value really well, compared to cars. Less then 50 percent deprication over 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Probably depends on what programs are available when its time to replace a groomer..( VDRF - vehicle depreciation replacement fund) is a smart way to self finance for a club that can budget for a replacement fleet at staggered intervals. Thats basically what the ten bucks is that the OFSC is earmarking. Just on a larger scale. It should be done from day one when a brand new unit rolls of the float from delivery. Sometimes you can get a better rate to buy outright than lease. Then the club owns tangible Capitol of some value, even though there is some depreciation. It's not the same level as a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thanks. A lot of money collected this year. Great info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Banks generally dont like us .They want personol gaurantees . Most directors are not willing to sign on a two hundred thousand dollar line.So far for the most part we have been ok but the fleet is aging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 The suppliers may be 'spoiled'. Piston Bully made a killing at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, but two years later? Maybe they would finance, similar to the auto industry. BRP? No stranger to government funding. Maybe that funding could trickle down to the clubs. (assuming it's clubs/regional grooming assoc. who purchase and not districts/OFSC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 There was just something circulated about Gilbert groomers demo days...anybody see that? I think they are John Deer and Case tractors as a base unit.. I wonder in times of tougher economy how flexible the manufacturers are when they're looking for business? Or what incentives they have or can craft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The suppliers may be 'spoiled'. Piston Bully made a killing at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, but two years later? Maybe they would finance, similar to the auto industry. BRP? No stranger to government funding. Maybe that funding could trickle down to the clubs. (assuming it's clubs/regional grooming assoc. who purchase and not districts/OFSC). BRP is no longer in the grooming business. They sold that division to Prinoth who moved all the manufacturing to europe. As a side note never did see where BRP paid back the R&D grants when they sold the division and exported the jobs for this division or for that matter the atv or the sea doo divisions when they exported those jobs to Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 ... never did see where BRP paid back the R&D grants when they sold the division and exported the jobs for this division or for that matter the atv or the sea doo divisions when they exported those jobs to Mexico. And you won't. If we didn't learn from Massey Ferguson, we never will. That was a $250 million bailout, in 1981! MF moved to Buffalo shortly thereafter. But we digress. Didn't realize BRP was out of the groomer business. Someone's about to get a large order. Won't be BRP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 And you won't. If we didn't learn from Massey Ferguson, we never will. That was a $250 million bailout, in 1981! MF moved to Buffalo shortly thereafter. But we digress. Didn't realize BRP was out of the groomer business. Someone's about to get a large order. Won't be BRP. hmm Massey Ferguson was Conrad Black BRP is Mitt Romney . I see a similarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 most farm tractor manufacturers offer really good prices for not for profit organizations. There is only 1 track system that would even be worth looking at putting on a rental unit and that is Soucey. It is also labour intensive to change out twice a year, if you are paying it is close to 3k per swap with tax. So that doesn't make a lease look so attractive. We had originally leased a tractor but at the end of last season decided to just buy it. Most dealers that sell the huskey's, piston bullies and tuckers will find you financing, not always cheap,but it is out there. The best part of buying equipment is it gives the club collateral, that they can borrow against. It does help when going to the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 most farm tractor manufacturers offer really good prices for not for profit organizations. There is only 1 track system that would even be worth looking at putting on a rental unit and that is Soucey. It is also labour intensive to change out twice a year, if you are paying it is close to 3k per swap with tax. So that doesn't make a lease look so attractive. We had originally leased a tractor but at the end of last season decided to just buy it. Most dealers that sell the huskey's, piston bullies and tuckers will find you financing, not always cheap,but it is out there. The best part of buying equipment is it gives the club collateral, that they can borrow against. It does help when going to the bank. Sorry it doesn;t give you any collateral as the OFSC owns the groomer as it was purchased with permit $$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 What entity owns the groomer(s)? Club, Regional grooming association, District or OFSC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 What entity owns the groomer(s)? Club, Regional grooming association, District or OFSC? that is a very loaded question. I believe that whether or not it was grant money plays into the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdbldr Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Some clubs own, some associations own and some ofsc owns, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 How many hours are on a 10 y.o groomer anyway? 1500 or so? Sweet spot for good retail is 2000 hours for tractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Sorry it doesn;t give you any collateral as the OFSC owns the groomer as it was purchased with permit $$ right on, what ever u say. Ya, the federation does own it......in the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 If a club is doing their own fundraising and has a separate account from permit money, and they use the fundraising money to buy any Capitol equipment, the OFSC does not have a claim in it. It is sole proprietorship of the club. If the club were to dissolve the assets of the club would be sold the same as a business. If a club uses permit money, grants, or any money from the OFSC then the groomer does belong to the OFSC unless the specifics of a loan or other arrangement dictate who owns it at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Who cares as long as it grooms trails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 If a club is doing their own fundraising and has a separate account from permit money, and they use the fundraising money to buy any Capitol equipment, the OFSC does not have a claim in it. It is sole proprietorship of the club. If the club were to dissolve the assets of the club would be sold the same as a business. If a club uses permit money, grants, or any money from the OFSC then the groomer does belong to the OFSC unless the specifics of a loan or other arrangement dictate who owns it at the end of the day. You will find at the end of the day that the Federation has the right to everything, even the fund raising money. You raise money as a club, the thing is ur a member club to the federation, therefor ur raising money using the federation (long handled deal). Talk to any exec. of a club that has folded, they can realy enlighten u. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Our District helps our Clubs by giving us an interest free loan for 5 years so we can spread the payments out. Our last was 5 years at $15,000 per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Our District helps our Clubs by giving us an interest free loan for 5 years so we can spread the payments out. Our last was 5 years at $15,000 per year. That's awesome. Great for a smaller club that does not have the potential to come up with the funding for such a major purchase .. Heck, great for the bigger clubs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You will find at the end of the day that the Federation has the right to everything, even the fund raising money. You raise money as a club, the thing is ur a member club to the federation, therefor ur raising money using the federation (long handled deal). Talk to any exec. of a club that has folded, they can realy enlighten u. I disagree. Sorry. Under insolvency .. That is the reason for a separate independent bank account that differs from your permit account. If the club uses fundraising money that they generated under their own means even under affiliation of OFSC, they still generated that money separate from the umbrella of the Federation. However...when a club folds, it's easier to hand over titles and rights to say..the OFSC who assumes legal responsibilities over the clubs Directors. That's why it's an easy sell to go this route, not mandatory. the club could say " we'll handle dissolving our own assets and dispersing of property", thusly paying off any creditors. However the Directors are on the hook to ensure it is done properly. A big gamble. It's just easier to hand over all the "keys" to the Federation. then they're on the hook! There's just two ways to go about it. In our case we have a clubhouse that was bought for a very very low price, from the County. If we were to dissolve, it does not become property of the Federation. It has to be dissolved by other means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You will find at the end of the day that the Federation has the right to everything, even the fund raising money. You raise money as a club, the thing is ur a member club to the federation, therefor ur raising money using the federation (long handled deal). Talk to any exec. of a club that has folded, they can realy enlighten u. Look at District 16 and you will see that the OFSC is even trying to remove the bridges that were built. Not all the $ came from OFSC funding! Why send mega dollars to destroy the infrastructure rather than use them to create in the remaining districts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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