Where does the sport of SNOWMOBILING go from here?

[sledjunk]

We have had that issue quite a bit over the last few years. One guy purchased a number of pieces of property, mostly farmland, in our area. He immediately put up new fences and did not install gates where we once had access. This usually happened without any contact with the club and when approached flatly denied access. Often this caused last minute reroutes and in many instances, a section of road running to make the connection.

Land speculation will continue to cost us trails, unfortunately.

[Viperules700]

Especially if the land owner has horses, they tend to say no. Could be a problem for sure.

[02Sled]

Does anyone see land ownership change over as a potential issue moving forward? In our area, we have some trails running through large areas of property with for sale signs all over, a sale could be an ender to a very good linked trail, with a re-route not being an easy task for the very same reason, plus the lack of volunteers etc. Just wondering.

It is always a possibility the new owners may not want you there however if it is as you say a large piece of property, it wasn't a problem to the prior owners, the new owner doesn't have plans for a different use of that space it may likely not be a problem. Likely the real key is to respect the land owners and stay on the trail. If there was a history with the previous owner where for many years people stayed on the trail with the very rare exception those many years may work in your favour as they may have had a higher tolerance. The new owner may likely not have that history and a few bad apples going off trail in that land owners first year may turn them off and say forget it.

We always have to remember that we are only their thanks to their generosity. It is those few who believe it is their right to run wherever they want that can ruin it so quickly for the majority.

[sledjunk]

The situation I am speaking of has nothing to do with past history of trespassing or livestock issues. They are buying up as much farmland as becomes available, and sometimes rent it out to be farmed but usually it lies dormant. Simply waiting for the housing market to expand and then subdivide or develop when the prices skyrocket.

[Yukon]

Does anyone see land ownership change over as a potential issue moving forward? In our area, we have some trails running through large areas of property with for sale signs all over, a sale could be an ender to a very good linked trail, with a re-route not being an easy task for the very same reason, plus the lack of volunteers etc. Just wondering.

Clubs are being encouraged to get land use agreements from District, township , crown lands where ever and whenever possible taking us off privately own propertys ... In many areas Logging roads are available for use , but as you get closer to urban areas it becomes more challenging . We as clubs need to be forward thinkers and have plans for long term trail use securement....

[bbakernbay]

I have been following kijiji "Snowmobiles" Ontario for the past month or so as my 99 Formula 500 DLX expired on the last day of the season last March.

About 3-4 weeks ago there were around 4,050 snowmobile ads on kijiji for all of Ontario.

Today there are 5,081.

How many of those do you think are trying to get out of snowmobiling completely versus trying to upgrade.

My bet is that 2/3 are getting out, based upon their printed reasons and in some cases the sleds are in great shape and it doesn't make much sense to me to upgrade but what do I know running a '96 and a dead '99.

Gas in North Bay today is $1.39 regular per lire. That's $55 per snowmobile fillup.

Sure makes the $210 trail Permit or $130 Classic Permit look like one terrific bargain.

Oh did I forget to mention that motel rooms are running $135 - $150 a night too.

Guys are running $15,000 sleds with $500 suits and they still complain about a $200 Trail Permit and never put an hour's work into volunteering theitr time to keep everything running smoothly.

[Lep]

Clubs are being encouraged to get land use agreements from District, township , crown lands where ever and whenever possible taking us off privately own propertys ... In many areas Logging roads are available for use , but as you get closer to urban areas it becomes more challenging . We as clubs need to be forward thinkers and have plans for long term trail use securement....

Could u please explain how this will work for D5/D9???...My club deals with 58 landowners for rougly 65/70km of trail......Yes the UP NORTH I mean Sudbury/North Bay north have everything we need to keep this sport alive just what the OFSC wants logging roads/crown land etc BUT the OFSC doesnt have time for the north as bodies are disappearing and low sale's on permits WTF....If the OFSC thinks the sport is going to servie with catering to central and all the weekend warriors goodluck....if us peeps in d5/d9 dont get snow where to we go most go UP NORTH not the populated area's of central....here's one for to think about, my group 21 ladies and guys all from d5/d9, after last yr and all the travels we did,11 of them are going to take there chance and wait to see if mother nature happens at the house if not they are trailering to north bay,temisk pulling them there and of to QU....thats a possibility of 11 permits not going to the OFSC...I highly dout it will be 11 as they are true sledheads but peeps are waying there diff opions and YES they are all put there time in with there clubs etc....the rest the other 10 are doing r same old routine buying early and praying for the white gold but all of us are buying seasonal permits for Qu this year.If we have to trailer 6hrs puts us at the Qu border...yes I think the OFSC needs to look down the road BUT if they dont go the right road and forget about diff areas the true sledheads that want to ride no matter what will go where the trails are.U know the ### from the servie dosnt look promising..if they cannt ride from home they will be OUT and if mother nature $hits on us again look out.

[Lep]

I have been following kijiji "Snowmobiles" Ontario for the past month or so as my 99 Formula 500 DLX expired on the last day of the season last March.

About 3-4 weeks ago there were around 4,050 snowmobile ads on kijiji for all of Ontario.

Today there are 5,081.

How many of those do you think are trying to get out of snowmobiling completely versus trying to upgrade.

My bet is that 2/3 are getting out, based upon their printed reasons and in some cases the sleds are in great shape and it doesn't make much sense to me to upgrade but what do I know running a '96 and a dead '99.

Gas in North Bay today is $1.39 regular per lire. That's $55 per snowmobile fillup.

Sure makes the $210 trail Permit or $130 Classic Permit look like one terrific bargain.

Oh did I forget to mention that motel rooms are running $135 - $150 a night too.

Guys are running $15,000 sleds with $500 suits and they still complain about a $200 Trail Permit and never put an hour's work into volunteering theitr time to keep everything running smoothly.

Good Post and so true....

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I have been following kijiji "Snowmobiles" Ontario for the past month or so as my 99 Formula 500 DLX expired on the last day of the season last March.

About 3-4 weeks ago there were around 4,050 snowmobile ads on kijiji for all of Ontario.

Today there are 5,081.

How many of those do you think are trying to get out of snowmobiling completely versus trying to upgrade.

My bet is that 2/3 are getting out, based upon their printed reasons and in some cases the sleds are in great shape and it doesn't make much sense to me to upgrade but what do I know running a '96 and a dead '99.

Gas in North Bay today is $1.39 regular per lire. That's $55 per snowmobile fillup.

Sure makes the $210 trail Permit or $130 Classic Permit look like one terrific bargain.

Oh did I forget to mention that motel rooms are running $135 - $150 a night too.

Guys are running $15,000 sleds with $500 suits and they still complain about a $200 Trail Permit and never put an hour's work into volunteering theitr time to keep everything running smoothly.

Agreed, complaining about a 200 permit is utterly ridiculous. Permit prices are not driving people away from sledding. So why deal with it?

My 2 cents, a grand convention with manufacturers, dealers, ofsc guys, average trail riders. Put al of our heads together and lets come up with something.

[sledjunk]

Agreed, complaining about a 200 permit is utterly ridiculous. Permit prices are not driving people away from sledding. So why deal with it?

Unfortunately, there are some who are blaming the permit price for their decision or consideration not to continue in the sport. I don't get it either but their perception is their reality.

My 2 cents, a grand convention with manufacturers, dealers, ofsc guys, average trail riders. Put al of our heads together and lets come up with something.

You mean like a true meeting of stakeholders!!! Excellent idea!

[blue er]

seems to me that the doom and gloom attitude is never going to go away. some people just want to be obsessed with the failure of the ofsc and the trail network, while there is no easy answers UTS by far has the best idea. a meeting a soloution proposed votr it and do it.

i would much rather bust each other asses over our choice of ride than complain about lack thereof

[Lep]

seems to me that the doom and gloom attitude is never going to go away. some people just want to be obsessed with the failure of the ofsc and the trail network, while there is no easy answers UTS by far has the best idea. a meeting a soloution proposed votr it and do it.

i would much rather bust each other asses over our choice of ride than complain about lack thereof

U may be seeing some doom and gloom att but we haven seem the doom and gloom of the ecom yet....yes UTS has a great idea but what is the AGM all about....they come to one event and what comes out of it the last few yrs.....clubs need to gave and take not just think about them selfs .

[blue er]

U may be seeing some doom and gloom att but we haven seem the doom and gloom of the ecom yet....yes UTS has a great idea but what is the AGM all about....they come to one event and what comes out of it the last few yrs.....clubs need to gave and take not just think about them selfs .

exactly but how do we convince the clubs? from what i read here and fs or hcs what may help one club(or district) has another bickering about the loss of a permit or 2 looks more like greed to me than a desire to work together and provide an outstanding system that would benefit and work for everyone

[Wildbill]

Agreed, complaining about a 200 permit is utterly ridiculous. Permit prices are not driving people away from sledding. So why deal with it?

My 2 cents, a grand convention with manufacturers, dealers, ofsc guys, average trail riders. Put al of our heads together and lets come up with something.

$210. but whos counting pennies. The truth is sledding is done with disposable income. That is something that less folks have today than did 20 or even 10 years ago. So we need to adjust to this.

Your idea has merit the manufacturers seem almost ready to abandon the sport sometimes.

[Mossy]

Agreed, complaining about a 200 permit is utterly ridiculous. Permit prices are not driving people away from sledding. So why deal with it?

My 2 cents, a grand convention with manufacturers, dealers, ofsc guys, average trail riders. Put al of our heads together and lets come up with something.

So you mean to say that if the price of a permit dropped there wouldn't be more permit buyers? You should get out of the city and talk to former sledders around here! They will tell you that is exactly why they quit. But that being said thats not the only reason. It's the cost of everything. Fuel travel short winter etc.

[Doo'n it]

The price of snowmobiles and required gear keeps newbie's out of the sport.Ongoing costs including permits,gas,lodging,trailers and lack of snow is forcing current sledders out of the sport.You can't justify the cost of the sport in todays economy.There are so many things that devour your income these days it's hard to find the cash to continue.The reason retired people are the backbone of the clubs is because they have the time and years of built up assets to sustain them in the sport.If you can only ride on weekends then how many days is your sledding season?Do I use the few vacation days I get to go sledding or save them for family vacations? I try to do it on the cheap but it gets harder each year.I don't have an answer to the future direction but something has to change or we are in for rough ride.Sledding is the funnest thing I do and I dread the day when I just can't continue.It's a blown engine away at this point.

[Yukon]

Could u please explain how this will work for D5/D9???...My club deals with 58 landowners for rougly 65/70km of trail......Yes the UP NORTH I mean Sudbury/North Bay north have everything we need to keep this sport alive just what the OFSC wants logging roads/crown land etc BUT the OFSC doesnt have time for the north as bodies are disappearing and low sale's on permits WTF....If the OFSC thinks the sport is going to servie with catering to central and all the weekend warriors goodluck....if us peeps in d5/d9 dont get snow where to we go most go UP NORTH not the populated area's of central....here's one for to think about, my group 21 ladies and guys all from d5/d9, after last yr and all the travels we did,11 of them are going to take there chance and wait to see if mother nature happens at the house if not they are trailering to north bay,temisk pulling them there and of to QU....thats a possibility of 11 permits not going to the OFSC...I highly dout it will be 11 as they are true sledheads but peeps are waying there diff opions and YES they are all put there time in with there clubs etc....the rest the other 10 are doing r same old routine buying early and praying for the white gold but all of us are buying seasonal permits for Qu this year.If we have to trailer 6hrs puts us at the Qu border...yes I think the OFSC needs to look down the road BUT if they dont go the right road and forget about diff areas the true sledheads that want to ride no matter what will go where the trails are.U know the ### from the servie dosnt look promising..if they cannt ride from home they will be OUT and if mother nature $hits on us again look out.

Clubs are being encouraged to get land use agreements from District, township , crown lands where ever and whenever possible taking us off privately own propertys ... In many areas Logging roads are available for use , but as you get closer to urban areas it becomes more challenging . We as clubs need to be forward thinkers and have plans for long term trail use securement....

[Fred Quimby]

When something such as a pastime or hobby is funded by disposable income, and today, everybody seems to be dealing with less and less disposable income, something will give. It was motioned and voted on to raise prices for this year's permit prices. Then with two back to back low snow yield Winters in many areas, the OFSC predicts at least a 10% drop in permit sales. I bet the numbers will look like they are closer to 20% or worse if the Winter kicks off bad again. The whole permit price issue was one of those "oops..maybe not a bright idea" moments. Too late. That will put some out of the game. No question. Couple the cost of the permit, with those that look at fuel, length of riding season, travel and hotel costs...all have exponentially increased. The permit fee increase may be the nail in the coffin but is surely not the sole proprietor of forcing one out of the sport.

Clubs have to deal with that shortfall. The whiners and bitchers will be out in full force to complain about trails, as they do. Many clubs have to face the fact that they MUST scale back grooming operations for this budget year to survive. That means less attention to smaller trails, some connectors, or local club trails will see less of the groomers. Some Top trails may even have to go longer in between groomer passes. Groomer operation is a controllable expense. Insurance, fuel, groomer payments, are not controllable. I'd say it is safe to say that unless Mother nature is stellar this year, we will be in for a tough go.

I personally do not think the manufacturers care about Central Ontario as a market. We are not all that big in the grand scheme of things. If we were that big an influence, you'd see more attention being paid to the OFSC by the big 4. not happening. Their sales are still moving along tickety boo. What do they care about a few who give up the sport? Not a.

So what is the solution?

Marketing and branding.

What does the OFSC do to really market the sport and hit those that have money to entice them into the sport? What does the OFSC do to pressure the big 4 into bringing prices down or come out with greater incentives? Not a lot..but some. Weak effort at best.

As far as branding goes..look at the media success of say a McDonalds. Yes it is gut-rot, it is lousy food, poor nutritional value for the most part..yet in today's health conscious world. They not only survive..but do very well. It's about branding. Seldom do you see McDonalds selling burgers. They sell happy people enjoying food in their restaurants, out of their restaurants, outside, on the water..wherever. It sells. i can't remember if the OFSC has ever done a commercial?

Each year I get a package from Lanaudiere, Quebec. I have never made it there. i signed up at the snowmobile show years ago for a toursim package. Every year since, I have received in the mail a new map, host of brochures for hotels, motels, restaurants, coupons, letters welcoming me..a damn good package. Will I go. As soon as I can swing it. Why? Because they enticed me to go! Their sales pitch has kept my interest and the dedication to promoting the sport has shown me they care about sledders.

What does McGuilty do?

[Mossy]

What does McGuilty do?

Don't get me started!

[02Sled]

When something such as a pastime or hobby is funded by disposable income, and today, everybody seems to be dealing with less and less disposable income, something will give. It was motioned and voted on to raise prices for this year's permit prices. Then with two back to back low snow yield Winters in many areas, the OFSC predicts at least a 10% drop in permit sales. I bet the numbers will look like they are closer to 20% or worse if the Winter kicks off bad again. The whole permit price issue was one of those "oops..maybe not a bright idea" moments. Too late. That will put some out of the game. No question. Couple the cost of the permit, with those that look at fuel, length of riding season, travel and hotel costs...all have exponentially increased. The permit fee increase may be the nail in the coffin but is surely not the sole proprietor of forcing one out of the sport.

Clubs have to deal with that shortfall. The whiners and bitchers will be out in full force to complain about trails, as they do. Many clubs have to face the fact that they MUST scale back grooming operations for this budget year to survive. That means less attention to smaller trails, some connectors, or local club trails will see less of the groomers. Some Top trails may even have to go longer in between groomer passes. Groomer operation is a controllable expense. Insurance, fuel, groomer payments, are not controllable. I'd say it is safe to say that unless Mother nature is stellar this year, we will be in for a tough go.

I personally do not think the manufacturers care about Central Ontario as a market. We are not all that big in the grand scheme of things. If we were that big an influence, you'd see more attention being paid to the OFSC by the big 4. not happening. Their sales are still moving along tickety boo. What do they care about a few who give up the sport? Not a.

So what is the solution?

Marketing and branding.

What does the OFSC do to really market the sport and hit those that have money to entice them into the sport? What does the OFSC do to pressure the big 4 into bringing prices down or come out with greater incentives? Not a lot..but some. Weak effort at best.

As far as branding goes..look at the media success of say a McDonalds. Yes it is gut-rot, it is lousy food, poor nutritional value for the most part..yet in today's health conscious world. They not only survive..but do very well. It's about branding. Seldom do you see McDonalds selling burgers. They sell happy people enjoying food in their restaurants, out of their restaurants, outside, on the water..wherever. It sells. i can't remember if the OFSC has ever done a commercial?

Each year I get a package from Lanaudiere, Quebec. I have never made it there. i signed up at the snowmobile show years ago for a toursim package. Every year since, I have received in the mail a new map, host of brochures for hotels, motels, restaurants, coupons, letters welcoming me..a damn good package. Will I go. As soon as I can swing it. Why? Because they enticed me to go! Their sales pitch has kept my interest and the dedication to promoting the sport has shown me they care about sledders.

What does McGuilty do?

What you cite is related to what I have been saying about the responsiveness and the agility of the OFSC and the clubs to respond to changes and consumer demands. Think in terms of a retailer selling a product. Last year winter clothing and snowblower sales were dismal for retailers. They responded with all kinds of sale prices on the clothing much sooner than ever, sale prices on snowblowers and even deferred payments etc.

If they operated like the OFSC they would start to talk about the dismal sales in winter 2012, make a proposal in fall 2012, vote on it and then try and sell the winter 2012 snowblowers in the winter of 2014.

Also we need top notch marketing. Not volunteer marketing. It can be funded by a collaboration of all the tourism related businesses that reap the financial benefits of sledders spending their money.

I hear radio ads for the OFSC with "THE INTREPID SNOWMOBILER". Perhaps we need to become more current. McDonalds has evolved and doesn't use Ronald anymore or the Hamburglar.

I did see a video the OFSC put together once that was quite good but that was it.

[Fred Quimby]

I think a good quality commercial put together by a professional company showing families enjoying sledding, is a good start. Maybe a couple different versions that quickly showcase two or three major destinations in the Province. This markets not just snowmobiling but tourism and quality family time. You are also likely to get more money from tourism infrastructure grants for these projects too if it involves more than just the aspect of sledding. The more buy in the more success.

O2..you are right we need top notch marketing..not volunteer marketing. It may have been fine ten years ago but things are tougher now and you really have to grab somebody now and when you do..you have to figure out how to keep them.

Some options for good commercials are targeting the 55+ crowd that does have more disposable income. They are the ones who are moving north, selling homes in the city, empty nesters.

The families could be a potential target. Those that have the classic machines or one new machine and a couple older ones. Show them you don't need big $$$ machines to enjoy the sport.

Then there are the young guys that have no families, no homes and no responsibilities. Show them out with their buddies on the new machines, fancy gear and you have a good cross section showcased in a couple good well laid out commercials.

Go from there...

[Lep]

Clubs are being encouraged to get land use agreements from District, township , crown lands where ever and whenever possible taking us off privately own propertys ... In many areas Logging roads are available for use , but as you get closer to urban areas it becomes more challenging . We as clubs need to be forward thinkers and have plans for long term trail use securement....

Paul I know what it say's but like I said how will this work for D5/D9.....some peeps have no idea what we have to go thru down here,its a full time job to keep our landowner's happy along with all the basic responaibities to get the trails ready,and all the new BS coming down the pipes....Here's one for U and the boys to think about....ask all the clubs for there active member ### along with there age"s has it been done yet???? AND a active member is NOT just a permit buyer....IMO we need to know the ### of each club and I can bet 50% of the clubs in ontario are being run by a dozen peeps or less sure there are a few with lots of membership, also what percent are they the other 50% The Palace needs to get out from under the rock and face the facts what is going on and just not put bandaids on the problem.......Is our tracking system going to be operational this yr we are moving on to yr # 3 now

[Sledguy74]

True snowmobiling is a "disposable income" sport, the issues the OFSC face are in a way out of their control.

Stats Canada shows the average house price in Canada to be $409,000 yet the average combined income is $61,000 per house.

Seems to me that the OFSC can't do much againt the outragious cost of living in this country.

Most of you guys have commented on the operating costs to go sledding for a weekend......we all know its steap

Weather has been against us for some time now, but those of us who love doing it manage best we can.

My opinion (for the penny its worth) is the OFSC needs to adjust the best they can to all the conditions they have NO control over.

[ToSlow]

maybe need to shrink the clubs trail system to there budget, and then build from that.

not all clubs need 400+kms of trails

[Canuck]

I was reading the above (communication; commercials) and it dawned on me that Twitter would be an excellent way to report 'actual' trail conditions.

So far, I'm on Twitter just to get current news feeds. Don't broadcast much, since folks could care less what I ate for breakfast. However, it can be much more than that, and hopefully it develops into a 'just in time' service for trail conditions and more.

Lep, you're request re: club participation is worth pursuing. Thanks.

FQ - the 'hard copy' in the mail works for me as well. We used to get maps with Ontario trail passes; hotel info; etc. It kept 'snowmobiling' in your mind and was effective.