02Sled Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 02 you had my BP increasing quickly until you made your point very effectively. Sorry about that.... I started the thought line thinking about what I consider to be the stupid concepts I have heard from people who actually believe that. I actually have come across people that complain about the cost of the permit but are towing their $8000 sled trailer with their $70000 diesel pickup wearing their Mustang suit and unloading their $18000 sled then going to their $175 a night hotel room after enjoying their $50 dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Sorry about that.... I started the thought line thinking about what I consider to be the stupid concepts I have heard from people who actually believe that. I actually have come across people that complain about the cost of the permit but are towing their $8000 sled trailer with their $70000 diesel pickup wearing their Mustang suit and unloading their $18000 sled then going to their $175 a night hotel room after enjoying their $50 dinner. Not all of us fit that description! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Not all of us fit that description! Never suggested that is the case but there seems to be enough that do. I was in Port Severn yesterday and there was a sled in the Amco parking lot. Not on the trail but it did have a current trail permit on the windshield. Not a cheap sled by any stretch of the imagination, well north of $10K. The permit was in a zip lock bag and the zip lock was taped to the windshield with clear packing tape. You just know that permit is being passed around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskywizard Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 You just know that permit is being passed around. All you really know is that the permit you saw hadn't been applied properly by that owner. It could be that the permit belongs to that sledder, and he bought it for his new sled that is overdue for delivery so he's using it (improperly) on his old sled. The MTO and OFSC have created a flawed permit system that leads otherwise honest sledders to skirt the rules. Sled owners should be able to legitimately transfer a permit from one sled to another more easily, just as we do with automobile plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 All you really know is that the permit you saw hadn't been applied properly by that owner. It could be that the permit belongs to that sledder, and he bought it for his new sled that is overdue for delivery so he's using it (improperly) on his old sled. The MTO and OFSC have created a flawed permit system that leads otherwise honest sledders to skirt the rules. Sled owners should be able to legitimately transfer a permit from one sled to another more easily, just as we do with automobile plates. Pretty new pretty pricey sled. I really doubt he is waiting for his new sled that is overdue for delivery at this time of the year. Do you really believe that. I could be wrong but I think you will find the dealers have all the inventory they will be having for this season with few exceptions. Something like the group I found on the trail last year. They all had a trail permit except one. He said it was in his pocket and it was too cold to put it on the sled and that is why it wasn't stuck on. I persisted until he finally stuck it on the windshield after giving excuses about how hard they were to get off to put next years on etc. All the while his buddies were chuckling. Just as they were set to leave you here. "Mike's going to be some pissed when you can't give him his permit back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Never suggested that is the case but there seems to be enough that do. I was in Port Severn yesterday and there was a sled in the Amco parking lot. Not on the trail but it did have a current trail permit on the windshield. Not a cheap sled by any stretch of the imagination, well north of $10K. The permit was in a zip lock bag and the zip lock was taped to the windshield with clear packing tape. You just know that permit is being passed around. I know what you're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 All you really know is that the permit you saw hadn't been applied properly by that owner. It could be that the permit belongs to that sledder, and he bought it for his new sled that is overdue for delivery so he's using it (improperly) on his old sled. The MTO and OFSC have created a flawed permit system that leads otherwise honest sledders to skirt the rules. Sled owners should be able to legitimately transfer a permit from one sled to another more easily, just as we do with automobile plates. There is an easy process. Was fully clarified this year with a new form provided. Covers every contingency including upgrading from Classic to Seasonal. What really needs to happen is a zero tolerance enforcement policy for failure to display/improperly displayed permits. Replace a lost or damaged seasonal or classic permit (same owner/same sled) $10 Transfer a seasonal or classic permit to a new sled (same owner/different sled) $10 Upgrade a classic permit, purchased on or before Dec 1, to a seasonal permit (same owner/different sled) $120 ($260‐$140) Upgrade a classic permit, purchased after Dec 1, to a seasonal permit (same owner/different sled) $90 ($260‐$170) Transfer a seasonal or classic permit to the new sled owner (new owner/same sled) Current Registered owner completes: BOX A, BOX B and BOX C (provide this form to the new owner) New Registered owner completes: BOX D and MTO application form $10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Perfect reply to WhiskyWizard, Police Report required for Lost or Stolen Permits. Too bad this 'Lost Permit' is starting to get abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskywizard Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 There is an easy process. Was fully clarified this year with a new form provided. Covers every contingency including upgrading from Classic to Seasonal. What really needs to happen is a zero tolerance enforcement policy for failure to display/improperly displayed permits. Replace a lost or damaged seasonal or classic permit (same owner/same sled) $10 Transfer a seasonal or classic permit to a new sled (same owner/different sled) $10 Upgrade a classic permit, purchased on or before Dec 1, to a seasonal permit (same owner/different sled) $120 ($260‐$140) Upgrade a classic permit, purchased after Dec 1, to a seasonal permit (same owner/different sled) $90 ($260‐$170) Transfer a seasonal or classic permit to the new sled owner (new owner/same sled) Current Registered owner completes: BOX A, BOX B and BOX C (provide this form to the new owner) New Registered owner completes: BOX D and MTO application form $10 I stand corrected. Thank \you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Got one new unit delivered today ( District purchase) One shuffled to another club and our "free " should be arriving tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 I would be happy if they switched permit to US dollars for next season. Can advertise it at 180 and have fine print saying it is in us dollars. That out to help out the shortage of funds and people will think they got a great deal too! I don't think that opinion is gonna fly with the OFSC, and it sure as sh!t doesn't fly here. The OFSC has a tough job ... give the user the best bang for their buck while not running the accounts into the red. And keep trails safe and rideable. And prevent insurance claims when possible. And don't let any groomer drivers drown due to crappy weather conditions and nature in general. If they say reduce the groomer fleet, DO IT. And 3 years from now they'll be giving groomers away as req'd. Let them. They've already forgotten more about the business than you and I will ever know. If a trail needs closing for business sake, at the end of the day the remainder of the Cochrane trails will have more attention and less wear & tear on People and equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Spoke to a contactor last week. He saw my sleds, we got to talking. I asked why he got out of snowmobiling. "We had a cottage near Millford Bay (Google search indicates Bracebridge area). Maintained our trails - permit was $60. Then OFSC took over. Our small trails were no longer maintained, just 'highways' for weekend warriors. I had no interest in that, got out". District grooming plans will face many challenges. We all know that. But I keep wondering if the local volunteers, who want trails for 'local' riding, are being heard. Probably (because there have been many surveys) .... but let's hope that club trails are maintained. _ Neat article in the current Ontario sled magazine about 'off groomed trail' riding. Western North American concept making it's way over here. Wait.....that's what we had in the 70's lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Old Hastings club shared this on thier facebook page yesterday. Attention Snowmobilers. A105Q trail in the Cochrane area will not be open this year. Effective this week it is closed permanently. Our District must reduce our groomer fleet by 1 groomer and Cochrane's third groomer (the tractor) has been selected as the groomer to be removed. This leaves us with two groomers which means we have to reduce some Kms of trail. A105Q was the trail selected since it has the amount of traffic on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 There is an easy process. Was fully clarified this year with a new form provided. Covers every contingency including upgrading from Classic to Seasonal. What really needs to happen is a zero tolerance enforcement policy for failure to display/improperly displayed permits. Replace a lost or damaged seasonal or classic permit (same owner/same sled) $10 Transfer a seasonal or classic permit to a new sled (same owner/different sled) $10 Upgrade a classic permit, purchased on or before Dec 1, to a seasonal permit (same owner/different sled) $120 ($260‐$140) Upgrade a classic permit, purchased after Dec 1, to a seasonal permit (same owner/different sled) $90 ($260‐$170) Transfer a seasonal or classic permit to the new sled owner (new owner/same sled) Current Registered owner completes: BOX A, BOX B and BOX C (provide this form to the new owner) New Registered owner completes: BOX D and MTO application form $10 Just to clarify, is there is no provision for a person buying an OFSC trail Permit for their sled and then deciding not to attach it or use it and then offer it for sale to someone else on a totally different sled. Kijiji sales or similar are still not permitted is the basic question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Was last night at a local snowmobile club meeting and they talked about MOTS. It's very clear that this club will close if MOTS will go to the next step. The board and the groomer operators will step up. Not good.... Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Why would the local club close if centralization proceeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Was last night at a local snowmobile club meeting and they talked about MOTS. It's very clear that this club will close if MOTS will go to the next step. The board and the groomer operators will step up. Not good.... Thanks, Greg Greg, please elaborate on what the issues are. You were at the meeting and we weren't so it is hard to read between the lines. What is the major issue, loss of groomer control, loss of groomer or something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I would be happy if they switched permit to US dollars for next season. Can advertise it at 180 and have fine print saying it is in us dollars. That out to help out the shortage of funds and people will think they got a great deal too!Let me get this straight you want all Ontario buyers to pay in American money? Wtf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I don't know which specific club Greg is referring to but there will certainly be more than 1. And maybe saying the club is closing is not the best way to phrase it. Perhaps it should be stated that should MOTS proceed the key volunteers will leave. And if it's like most clubs, there is nobody to step in and fill the void. So unless the district is prepared to take over the landowner relations, volunteer coordination, trail prep and grooming operations, there will be no trails in that area. Why you ask. Well unlike D-5 and D-9 who were able to arrive at a structure that works for them all on their own, these clubs feel like it is being forced on them with out much room for change and certainly no option for a different business model. They don't see any great need for major change. Do they see the need to improve the operation? Most certainly but not at the expense of sacrificing club autonomy. I am not going to debate the merits of the reasoning for these clubs because there is no point. Fact is it does not matter what anybody thinks but them. If they chose to leave, that is their prerogative. Just understand all the ramifications and be ready to pick up the pieces. And we all saw a few years ago what happened in D-16 when there was nobody to pick up the pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Clubs going on their own will not work and is a recipe for disaster. I think we can work within framework of MOTS but it needs to be a cooperative effort, difficult yes, frustrating probably but the only way to go. Next few years will be tough sledding, particularly if we get another winter like this. Volunteers are getting burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The best practice for clubs that are struggling is to amalgamate with its neighbouring club. To hear clubs wanting to close up shop because they feel they will lose their autonomy is BS. My club has been in an association for many years, we groom using the associations machine. It isnt always easy, but it works. We are a thriving club that was just 4 short years ago on the verge of collapse.. Burnout, lack of interest etc etc.... The model for MOTS is clubs working together in the district, which is for arguements sake an association of clubs... If our club was to lose a groomer, it would upset me but I certainly wouldnt take my ball and go home.. some will leave and those who will should decide what is best personally for the club. If a club wants to just plain give up and shut down, they will have to answer to the clubs membership. Its up to the membership to decide if they continue or not... Sorry it just yanks me the wrong way, when I here people wanting to just close a club, simply because of the unwillingness to accept change..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Greg, please elaborate on what the issues are. You were at the meeting and we weren't so it is hard to read between the lines. What is the major issue, loss of groomer control, loss of groomer or something else. It's maybe an old school club but they like to run their club how they like it. Overall they are very frugal spending their money and they pay sometimes their expenses out of their own pockets. It isn't that they don't have any money on their bank account but in their opinion they can't afford much. They haven't go to the OFSC Agm for years. Their groomer operators are volunteers and they think that "everyone" is against them. So if their assets and bank accounts go to the district they are done. Their major volunteers and groomer operators resign. So there is only a snowmobile club left without volunteers. They don't believe in closing 5% of the trails in the next 5 years. They are proud club volunteers but they don't want to be a proud OFSC volunteer. As Big Pete said, there are way more clubs who have this opinion and changing their opinion is like moving a rock. Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 It's maybe an old school club but they like to run their club how they like it. Overall they are very frugal spending their money and they pay sometimes their expenses out of their own pockets. It isn't that they don't have any money on their bank account but in their opinion they can't afford much. They haven't go to the OFSC Agm for years. Their groomer operators are volunteers and they think that "everyone" is against them. So if their assets and bank accounts go to the district they are done. Their major volunteers and groomer operators resign. So there is only a snowmobile club left without volunteers. They don't believe in closing 5% of the trails in the next 5 years. They are proud club volunteers but they don't want to be a proud OFSC volunteer. As Big Pete said, there are way more clubs who have this opinion and changing their opinion is like moving a rock. Thanks Greg Greg I now understand, well stated, thank you. I really don't have an answer for how to deal with that. Having true, working, long-term Volunteers leave snowmobiling would be tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Kevin, it sounds like STP is well ahead of the curve in terms of District wide grooming. Many Districts, ours included, have not got to that stage yet and there is absolutely no management structure setup to be able to manage the new way of doing things. It will likely take several years of transition and there will certainly be some fears by many, including me, until we see more meat on the bones as to how this is going to work and where is the money going to come from. How many groomers does STP have now and what is your target after the 5 year plan is complete? The STP way of doing things isretty much what everyone will be doing now. Is it perfect, no, does it work, yes. The clubs take care of the trails, the association grooms them. Guess what, the association is the exact same people that are in the clubs. Others have said this, the people that run a district are the same people that run the clubs. You will still actively control grooming, and if you want more involvement to do so, that opportunity exists. The STP board should be asked to consult on how to do it, they have vast experience and could certainly help with some of the hurdles being faced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Nobody is indispensable. Some people are certainly inconvenient if you lose them. If club members still want a club after these people leave then they will have to step up and take on some of the load. Executive positions have to be filled to meet corporate responsibilities. That can be like pulling teeth to get those positions filled. Hopefully some people will stick around to stake the trails while the district or neighboring club takes over all other duties. In the end people don't have to volunteer. They can ride the coat tails of others labor. The trails can also disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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