manitouwadge club, officially no longer part of the OFSC.

[hi-mileage]

Its the same for schools. Our youngest is in grade 8, and they are doing fund raising for their end of the trip. But all money has to be split with the whole school. Even the JK class that doesn't have a end of the year trip, gets some of the money their raise. Other organizations that do fund rasing have to follow the same rules, been like this for almost 20years.

So when we have Jack+Jills ,do we share with everyone that's getting married???Bunch of BS,They don't need to know anything!!

[skidooboy]

yes, the fund raising thing is not the ofsc, it is the ontario govt. the licensing body for fund raising, demands certain things to be done with the funds. they are very specific. ski

[Canuck]

Blackfly,

Thanks for your summary re: why that area is no longer part of the OFSC trail system.

[hi-mileage]

yes, the fund raising thing is not the ofsc, it is the ontario govt. the licensing body for fund raising, demands certain things to be done with the funds. they are very specific. ski

How do they know what any club is doing for fund raising???

[dweese]

So when we have Jack+Jills ,do we share with everyone that's getting married???Bunch of BS,They don't need to know anything!!

I know its a dumb rule, but I remeber back in the 90's when I was involved with the Canadian Ski Patrol system. The Ontario Government enacted the rules, saying any not for profit group that accepts government funding or grants must equally share any and all moneys received from fund raising or government, evenly throughout the organization.

It was to help balance things from area to area across the province so that the richer areas didn't end up with better services than others.

However in cases like this, and when I was with Ski Patrol where we had a local hill that made just enought money to keep the lifts running, they couldn't help us with anything but the basics. But bigger ski hills around the GTA got snowmobiles and other extras supplied by the hill. We tried to rasie our own funds but than we were told we have to give it back so everyone gets their share, even the places that didn't need it.

[AkronOrange]

Blackfly,

Thanks for your sincere input and all of your hard work. I can tell from your posts that you are passionate about Manitouwadge and want success for the area and the system alike.

I am from the States and truly love northern Ontario and the people there. Our group has come to know many of the people there and we look forward to our visit each year. These are people that I can now proudly call friends. We have together, in the past, work toward a common goal, improving snowmobiling for everyone. While I would love to come and ride the deep snow sometime, but truth be told, I have spent a great deal of money to buy a machine and gear for touring. I want to be able to get from point "A" to point "B" and back again, in the past those points had been as much as 1500 miles apart. We come up and each in our group spends between $150 and $200 per day having a good time and helping the local economies and we all feel that we get a good value for our money. We cannot justify the added expense of renting a mountain sled each year.

I am disappointed to see us losing what all of you have worked so hard to achieve. There will never be another recreation that will compare with the enjoyment all of you and the other volunteers have provided. It is too bad that the governing bodies cannot recognize that and adjust accordingly.

Hope to see you all on the trail this season.

Ride safe.

[skidooboy]

AO, you dont have to rent mountain sleds to have fun up there. if you have good balance, and understand throttle control, and momentum is your friend in the deep. i'm betting black fly can help you out, or we can take you offtrailing with us. we know enough people up there combined to set you up with a local that has lodging there in mani, and "guiding".

you might not be able to ride up front all the time, or all the deepest places our taller lugged sleds go but, you will have a great time. i am betting you might even do what we did, modify your sleds to equip the sleds you ride to pull dual duties, trail and offtrail.

if you really like it, new york and the northeast has some great offtrail deep snow areas. and there is always the steep and deep of the western rockies.

i could see you switching to mountain riding. ski

[The Groomer Guy]

before the cains quest there was the challenge kanada, in northern ontario. but, you do understand these adventure races have nothing to do with any trail system correct? they are a navagation, and endurance challenge where nothing is marked, except the check in stations across many miles of remote wilderness.

this would do nothing to aid the plight of a trail closure, club failure, or town downsizing. it is a one time fly through deal.

i really think if you made it a money deal, and people could actually make a wage clearing, marking, prepping, signing, grooming ect.. v.s this volunteer no pay "slavery" i think you would get more people involved, to the point you would be turning people away.

say if i was laid off in the winter but, could make a wage upkeeping the trail system, i would consider that as my addition to my income, and do that to supplement my income, and help the club and community at the same time.

but if i am laid off, and money is tight, i need to stay home, spend less, and look for work to supplement my income. helping out becomes secondary, when you need to help yourself or family.

Big Reg and I where working on getting the Challenge kanada back running, had founf insurance, was in talks with the old promoter and was willing to help us out.... be then the economy crashed and the idea was put away.

[The Groomer Guy]

Every post in this thread has valid points and the solution to the problem is not an easy one, if there is one at all.

I want to reiterate that the OFSC was very supportive of the Manitou Sno Drifters. We had successes as mentioned of installing a two part bridge after almost 10 years, yes 10 years of planning, dealing with Ministries, seeking funding and completing the task. We were also awarded a relatively new groomer to maintain our trails. Money was not the primary cause of our failure to be able to comply with the standards needed for membership in the OFSC. The OFSC has a funding matrix that works and yes there are loopholes that can be exploited but in general it does work. Never forget though that it is a business and must be run accordingly, especially since we are accountable to the public.

One of the major reasons for lack of interest in any executive position and volunteering is the risk and liability involved. One only needs to look at the newest signage. A sign that used to have 5 words "Use at your own risk" is now a sign that has over 250 words that must be posted at every road crossing in both directions to be sure it was noticed. Few volunteers want to be held liable for a missing sign or a bump in the trail, nor do they want the responsibilities legislated under the various Acts and Regulations. The OFSC has recognized this problem and is working with each and every club to try and eliminate risk and liability to members, volunteers and executive. Even fewer volunteers want to be treated as employees. Larger clubs with greater financial resources can have paid employees and possibly their executive is made up of people with experience the various positions.

Raising funds annually is mostly through permit sales and a stable but older population has resulted in reduced memberships. Fundraising is very difficult - there are many competing clubs for limited dollars. Having raffles, poker runs and things of that nature are next to impossible and the funds can only be used for certain things according to the legislation.

The volunteer model used for the current method of operation, in my opinion, is not sustainable. I cannot think of any other business that requires the amount of physical work that snowmobile clubs have, operating on a volunteer basis. Back in the day clubs were volunteers that got together with other people with similar interests. Some club members went fishing making trails along the way. Others may have organized small events like poker runs, BBQ's or dances and other get togethers. These were fun times and there is movement underway to return to this type of club.

In a small community such as ours the volunteers ask themselves who is really benefitting from their hard work? Weekend after weekend of brushing, cutting trails, repairing machinery, operating machinery - sometimes 50 km from any help. Yes tourism helps and perhaps those meals that are sold and rooms that are rented along with parts and perhaps fuel will help the business owners in the winter months. So is it fair to say the volunteers are working for the benefit of those businesses? In some cases the business owners are volunteers themselves wondering if the time spent on this activity could have a greater return on investment if they were working on something else?

I do not have the resources to confirm but I can imagine that the Sno Drifters are not the first to be suspended and we certainly won't be the last.

For those of you that dedicate your permit dollars to the northern clubs - thank you, it really helps, to those of you that travel to our part of the world we are also grateful for your visit, we hope you enjoyed your stay and experienced what we do every day of every winter. I encourage you again to look at our area for an alternative snowmobile experience. Rent a mountain sled, trailer it up and come Play in the Extreme. Thank you also to the moderators for correcting the title of the thread. An internet search will now result in a more positive impression.

http://www.ofsc.on.ca/trail-use.html For the actual "Use at Your Own Risk" sign.

Well said, and welcome to the Forum.

[02Sled]

So clubs have fund raising and you are told what you can spend funds on,am I reading this correct??I would spend it where the club votes to spend it,frig the ofsc!!Its club money,not theirs!!Oh Canada,true north strong and FREE,yeah right,were no better then Russia!!!

I wouldn't word it quite the same however if our club raises funds for whatever we choose we should spend it for whatever we choose. We do the work and nobody should be able to tell us how to spend it.

[AkronOrange]

AO, you dont have to rent mountain sleds to have fun up there. if you have good balance, and understand throttle control, and momentum is your friend in the deep. i'm betting black fly can help you out, or we can take you offtrailing with us. we know enough people up there combined to set you up with a local that has lodging there in mani, and "guiding".

you might not be able to ride up front all the time, or all the deepest places our taller lugged sleds go but, you will have a great time. i am betting you might even do what we did, modify your sleds to equip the sleds you ride to pull dual duties, trail and offtrail.

if you really like it, new york and the northeast has some great offtrail deep snow areas. and there is always the steep and deep of the western rockies.

i could see you switching to mountain riding. ski

SDB,

Thanks for the support. I will be contacting Blackfly during the season to see if he can arrage an off trail experience for us. We will be riding from Hearst to Chapleau at some point this season. If we can't arrange a trip to Klotz Lake for a visit to our most preferred destination in Ontario, we will spend more time in other parts.

Pray to the snow Gods and wish for a plentiful harvest.

[couchrocket500]

Pray to the snow Gods and wish for a plentiful harvest

X2 and very well said might I add.

[revrnd]

Blackfly, maybe you can help us w/ some info on M'wadge? I realize there are no mines open in town, what is operating at Hemlo? Is/was there any sawmilling done in town? When we rode thru there about 3 years ago coming down from Longlac, we passed a couple of very large log dumps west of town. The ends of the logs were very black, so 1 could assume they had been there for quite a while. In recent years the mills along Superior have either closed or burned down, did this affect the forestry industry in your area.

Finally, what is the population now compared to when there was miners employed in town?

[Ox]

The mines are closed?

Gold is all time high - and the mines are closed?

.

[dweese]

The mines are closed?

Gold is all time high - and the mines are closed?

.

Sure, because the less you have of somthing the more its worth. That's why the US has been sitting on an oil deposit in Alaska since the mid 80's that's bigger that the whole middle east oil deposits put together. Keep the market supply limited and you can better control the prices.

[revrnd]

Ox to answer your question about the mining.

From Wikipedia:

Manitouwadge (Manidoowaazh in Ojibwe, meaning “Cave of the Great Spirit”) was originally part of the range of the nomadic Ojibwe indigenous people. The town itself was founded by Noranda (now part of Xstrata) in the early 1950s to support the company's Geco copper mine. Other mine in Manitouwadge is the Willroy mine, named after two of the "Weekend Prospectors" William Dawidowich and Roy Barker.

From 1954 to 1974 Manitouwadge was classified as an Improvement District. The community became an incorporated township in 1975.

In the early 1980s, gold was discovered at Hemlo, near the intersection of highways 614 and 17, about 50 kilometres (31 mi) south of the town. Noranda acquired the mining rights to a significant portion of the ground in that area, and built the Golden Giant Mine. It offered housing in Manitouwadge to many of the employees of the new mine, and the town boomed.

When the Geco mine closed in 1995, Manitouwadge's population decreased significantly. After peaking at nearly 4000 people in the early 1990s, it decreased to less than 3000 by 2001. With the closing of the Golden Giant Mine in 2006, the population dropped to 2,300.

For more about the closed mine @ Hemlo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Giant_Mine

I seem to recall that when the mines @ Hemlo opened their life wasn't going to be anything like the producing mines in Timmins, Kirkland Lake or Sudbury.

[Blackfly]

Sorry for the delay in responding.

The Newmont Golden Giant Mine ceased operations in 2006 and the land has mostly been returned to nature. Check Youtube search Golden Giant for some of the demolition videos. The site can be seen when you travel on the D trail. This mine extracted over 90% of the ore on its claims and closed simply because it was economically mined out at the time. It doesn't matter what the price of gold is because you need ore that can be mined at less than the value per oz to make a profit. At current gold prices what was once uneconomical ore is now valuable and indeed many operations are restarting or what used to be marginal ore bodies are being reexplored.

The neighbouring Barrick operations - Williams Operating Corp and David Bell Mine are both still in operation with employees residing mostly in Marathon but also in Manitouwadge and White River.

WOC promotes an extended mine life. The DBM operations are actually mining the residual ounces on the Newmont property that they were unable to mine at the time.

Manitouwadge itself is holding its own. We have a couple of major employers - Manroc Mining Developments which has employees all over the world has its head office here. B&M Hauling a woodlands logging company is also in operation. There was a sawmill here many years ago but it closed about 15 years ago after a fire I believe. The population here is about 2400 people and we have about 1200 homes in town. You can do the math showing that it is 2 people per home. Certainly are young people have reduced in numbers. This is evident in the Minor Hockey Program, Figure Skating and so on. Just last week the school board had an article in the paper about how to consolidate the public and the high school into one to better utilize the new facility.

The economy in town has declined dramatically from the heyday but it is not out of the ordinary for a community in our situation. We currently have 2 grocery stores (Valumart and Franks), one liquor/beer store (LCBO), one pharmacy, a bicycle/safety store (Louies), two community news media (the Echo and Ontario News North, a bank I(CIBC), a NAPA automotive store, a drygoods store (Bargain Shop), several restaurants (Capri, Rendezvous, Loft, Friends Bakery, Donerite Pizza). The local PetroCan (Reddicks) will soon be an Esso after a huge investment in new pumps and tanks. We have several bait shops, B&B's (Sled North, Northwoods -under new ownership, Hillsport Hilton, Northern Comfort), The hotel remains closed but the EDC is offering it for sale for $10000 or so if someone completes a sound business plan. The community center is still well used. We have a ski hill that has snowmaking that attracts skiers from all over the north shore. There are many other businesses such as the welding shop (Paul Dallaire Welding), B&M Mechanical services. We have modern airport with a couple of private planes and medivac use. Our hospital is very modern and has some diagnostic machines not found elsewhere in small commuities. Some of our older, derelict buildings have been demolished to make room for new ones. The Wilroy apartments are gone and the old high school is next, some older homes have been removed which benefitted the neighbours to purchase the property and double the size of their own lot. We have 3 churches that represent the various religions. A very active seniors club (50+) and many other things. We have a need for an entrepreneur to start a small engine repair shop as well as another automotive repair shop. Many of our businesses are for sale at very reasonable prices, some due to owners retiring (former Cow convenience store) and others for various reasons. One can buy a business here along with a house for less than a house in most cities. Google any of the terms or look at Kijiji Thunder Bay with manitouwadge in the search line and you will see. We also have 2 real estate agents here Remax and Century 21. A house with shed and garage just listed this week private sale for $15,900. The price of a small camper. Ideal for a group purchase or otherwise for seasonal use. I have never figured out why there aren't any more reverse snowbirds - those that come north to get away from the heat and humidity of southern areas.

With regards to the logs with black ends. I am not sure exactly where these are or were but the trail from Hillsport to Manitouwadge took one through some logging country. I would assume those to be poplar logs that were left behind for one reason or another. One might say wastefull and perhaps so but the Ministry of Natural Resources keeps a close eye on all activity in the bush - mining, logging, exploration or otherwise. You can be sure if wood is left behind there is a reason for it. Yes the logging was impacted by the mill closures. Terrace Bay was a huge customer and is once again, now that it is up and running. Some wood went to Marathon Pulp which closed suddenly a couple of years ago. The former Domtar Sawmill in White River is also seeing a resurgence with a bio fuel company named Rentech working with the First Nations and the town of White River to start this plant to make jet fuel of all things. There is a similar venture planned for the Marathon pulp mill making pellet fuel for the European market. The local First Nations (Pic Heron and Pic Mobert) have been very active in power generation with several hydro plants installed. Stillwater Mining out of the USA has acquired the ownership of the copper, palladium property north of Marathon and just this week held open houses to present their plans. Production planned in 2014. So you can see the area is not dead, just in transition, it has been impacted by the economy but what area hasn't? I am trying to keep the Drifters alive as a corporation so that when better times come like in 2014 we will be ready. It will be a lumpy trail until we get there though. The OFSC has a very good policy manual that addresses almost any situation and rejoining is certainly one them. What business wouldn't want another revenue stream?

You can Google all this information. I believe I am accurate on the data because I am a director of the EDC, the Closure Manager at Newmont and also a 50 year resident. I do stand to be corrected though. I would be more than happy to answer any questions about our town.

A bit of background. I was a Sno Drifters member many years ago when a few of us worked hard with a double track skidoo Alpine and drag and then we upgraded to the Bombi making the original D110A trail and the Hornepayne traill down the power line. Many nights changing engines, putting tracks back on, getting out of creeks and bogs with few volunteers - things have not changed much. I am familiar with off trail riding. One of my fondest memories is breaking trail with my son between my legs on my VK540 to Hornepayne and on top of the large hill we stopped and he said "look at the beautiful scenary dad". He is an avid sledder to this day. On a recent trip to Revelstoke he was selected as the assistant for our group, got assigned a prototype sled and avalanche kit and away we went. Some of the most exciting days as well as the proudest of my life watching him especially when were in our own small avalanche shortly after the Turbo Mountain incident. I left the club to be the parent he needed with hockey, school, scouts and so on but rejoined a few years ago to tackle the challenges of the Nama Creek Bridge, Tucker repairs, and so on. The club has previously sponsored terrific drag races on the lake during Frosty Days and we are working to do this again but it is difficult. It has become a litigous society with all the rules, regulations and bylaws so it has become increasingly difficult for clubs and associations but also for businesses in general.

Someone suggested they will contact me for riding experiences. At my age and with my work resposibilites I would be a poor guide, the old VK- yes I still run it along with another one, would be an anchor to the modern sleds but I encourage you to Google any of the above names and they should be able to help. I want to be fair to all businesses and have probably violated some forum rule already by mentioning their names. Sorry about that. I do however encourage you to come and visit - groomed trails or not. Maps are available, google earth is a good tool and the OFSC and member clubs also.

I hope I have helped a little.

Ron

[revrnd]

Ron, thanks for the info. I guess I should've said what you did about the mines being mined out. I recall reading about the M'wadge mines doing research for a public school project. It kind of took me aback when I read that they were closed & that the CPR & CN had abandoned their lines into town.

About the log piles, they were about 15 or so minutes west of town. I'm thinking something had happened that there was no market for them after they had be stockpiled there.

[Ox]

Never heard about the mines closing.

I doo recall that they were dooing some small digging near Lochalsh (Just down the rd from Shiela @ OSSSI) about 15 yrs ago and trucking it out. I ass_u_me that it was headed to your area for processing. I know that they were still dooing it 10 yrs ago there as well.

I have ridden with another VK from town there several yrs ago. (Darrel)

Haven't seemed to be able to git ahold of him the last yr or so tho. ???

As for rules and by-laws, may I present a fact of life:

"It is easier to beg for forgiveness, than it is to attain permission."

...just sayin ....

... but then that's what Geraldton (?) did with a small bridge too eh?

I guess that didn't work out too well for them. So ...

I think that it would have been scary to ride in the Revelstoke area a short time after that slide. That one was big!

There was a LOT of lucky people there that day!

Yes - there is great offtrail in your area. Only catch that always comes to mind is the short section through the trees part way to Marathon. Maybe that has been cut around or changed by now. I can't say that I recall it the last time we were there, but on days that doo not have challanges, you never seem to notice those sections at all. One time we just couldn't fight our way through the bowed down sapplings. We cut and hacked with our hatchets for a while, but there was just so much, that we ended up crying uncle. But I know that day was over 10 yrs ago now...

[FreezerBurnt]

I realize it's a variety of problems. If I were King I would value the integrity of the system, over everything else. As economic conditions change so must the rules of the federation. Could Hornepayne help groom to Manitouwadge? Could Hearst groom to Longlac? Could funds be diverted from those "fat" clubs that groom trail that aren't needed? I have ridden Sudbury and numerous areas throughout Muskoka where there are so many trails leading to the same place it becomes confusing. Do you think these clubs area creating these trails so they can keep the trail dollars in their system? As long as the hotels and restaurants in my area are full, that's all I care about. I'll figure a way to manipulate the system so I can take care of me. I honestly don't know if that is really the case but there definitely is not a fair distribution of the trail funds.

Seems to me from this side of the boarder, that the vision has been lost, and no one wants to step in and piss any one off. Kind of like us down here trying to look out for everyone and compromising the values on which we began.

HUH, I could careless about areas I do not ride, the trails in my area are #1 to me, #2 lol at hotels and restaurants comment as they for the VAST majority do NOT support clubs,yes some do but most do not

Sudbury area has rationalized my trails which IMO turns/turned people in the area off of sledding as what is the point taking one trail leading to one place when in the past you could have had a few different trail that took you to different place within a couple of hours or half hr ride

Same goes for a touring sledder like yourself ,you enjoy the fact you can travel to different areas of the province as that is what you enjoy and there is nothing wrong with that other then you should pay for the access to the 34,000kms trails vs the fellow that treats sledding as a hobby or a afternoon of fun with friends

Fact is the cross inter provincial trail dream is way too big of an undertaking for the few that benefit and as we are seeing now it is starting to crumble unfortunetaly, we over stretched ourselves too fast in the 90s without thinking thoroughly of the consequences of $$$$ and manpower struggles

[AkronOrange]

FB,

I suppose you're right. If the goal is, for each individual club/district to be as successful as possible then they should keep things the way they are. The areas south of North Bay/Subury will flourish until we inconsiderate sledders begin pissing off the locals. First, some areas will be completely cut off from others or disappear, we're seeing it now. However, if the goal is to have a trail system, there must be change, the funding and resources must be dynamic, there must be a desire for one club or one district to help another, spread the wealth, maintain the system. This may be too idealistic for us humans, to actually help those that share our interests if we stand to lose anything at all.

Touring might indeed be a thing of the past, it may have to be, I just won't be a part of the weekend warrior pack, I don't enjoy the morons, I don't enjoy the trails as they get beat by Saturday afternoon, honestly that's why I don't ride here. The group with which I ride doesn't ride just to ride we truely enjoy the whole experience, which does include riding, but also the beauty of northern Ontario and meeting some of the best people you will find. These are experiences that you can't buy at your local travel agent, you have to earn them, it takes time. I think some of you know what I mean.

I wish everyone a safe riding season.

[Canuck]

I missed Blackfly's oct 7th contribution (one of the best posts on this forum in a long time) and am glad that the passion for Northern Ontario snowmobiling is shining through in the posts that followed.

[revrnd]

The 1st part of this post is directed @ the US sledders. When we started touring in 2000, we saw mostly US riders. Now they are few & far between. Which is more of a deterrent, the dollars @ parity or the lousy economy? I know people from the US that enjoyed the "good life" over here when the Canuck buck was in the toilet & they got a great premium when exchanging dollars. Now w/ the show on the other foot, they seem to grumble about how much everything costs here.

When Howard Hampton was leader of the NDP & a MPP from NW Ont', he complained about logs being cut in Ont' & trucked to Manitoba.

The Met Site in Timmins closed w/ the loss of 600 jobs & the ore shipped to Rouyn-Noranda for processing.

The reason for these 2 itemns was that the hydro (electricity) costs were cheaper outside of Ont'. Who's fault is that?

[skidooboy]

rev, it really isnt one thing, it is a combination of Many things that lead to the downward sprial of the us sledders comming accross.

obviously the exchange rate had alot to do with it.

taxes, and goods costing more, especially fuel.

no more gst rebates for the non residents

the economy and recreation taking a back seat to "needs" at home.

the price of the permits v.s riding anywhere else (except maybe quebec), where it is cheaper to buy seasonal, and daily use fees almost everywhere else. now many ontario people buy michigan, and new york passes and dont ride at home, especially with your dollar strong, and items including gas, food, lodging, and equipment, cheaper on this side of the border.

then you have the "been there, done that" crowd. they will come up once or twice then say, that was nice, where else can we go that is new and different.

loss of connector loops, fuel, lodging ect..... for longer touring type riders.

a couple of poor snow winters

the border crossing issues, now needing an enhanced drivers license or passport to get accross.

when you add it all up, it really is a pain in the ass for a us resident to come accross to ride, hunt and or fish. especially for the been there done that crowd. put one road block up, and they will go elsewhere and bad mouth the system. ie: costs too much, too cold, too much of a hassle at the borders ect....

personally for us (speaking for my family and core riding group), we have too many great friends (most like family to us), and memories, past, present, and future in northern ontario... to let this stuff get in our way of a good time. but, we are a minority too.

ski

[AC+YA]

rev, it really isnt one thing, it is a combination of Many things that lead to the downward sprial of the us sledders comming accross.

obviously the exchange rate had alot to do with it.

taxes, and goods costing more, especially fuel.

no more gst rebates for the non residents

the economy and recreation taking a back seat to "needs" at home.

the price of the permits v.s riding anywhere else (except maybe quebec), where it is cheaper to buy seasonal, and daily use fees almost everywhere else. now many ontario people buy michigan, and new york passes and dont ride at home, especially with your dollar strong, and items including gas, food, lodging, and equipment, cheaper on this side of the border.

then you have the "been there, done that" crowd. they will come up once or twice then say, that was nice, where else can we go that is new and different.

loss of connector loops, fuel, lodging ect..... for longer touring type riders.

a couple of poor snow winters

the border crossing issues, now needing an enhanced drivers license or passport to get accross.

when you add it all up, it really is a pain in the ass for a us resident to come accross to ride, hunt and or fish. especially for the been there done that crowd. put one road block up, and they will go elsewhere and bad mouth the system. ie: costs too much, too cold, too much of a hassle at the borders ect....

personally for us (speaking for my family and core riding group), we have too many great friends (most like family to us), and memories, past, present, and future in northern ontario... to let this stuff get in our way of a good time. but, we are a minority too.

ski

Ski,

You are so right!

I find that the passport / enhanced ID and the minimum 3-day trail pass have made it much harder for me to introduce Ontario to Michigan riders. The 1-day pass seemed so much less of a cost burden to riders accustomed to paying for Michigan permits. A Saturday in the Soo with a trip to Halfway Haven or a run down to St. Joseph Island was a great way to get them hooked. Not that easy anymore!

I am coming from lower Michigan, so the drive to Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario is much faster than to most places in the U.P. of Michigan which always seems to surprise people. I think there is something about crossing the border that takes people out of their comfort zone! Add the economic issues and it is not an easy sell these days.