manitouwadge club, officially no longer part of the OFSC.

[dweese]

Why on earth would you even type something like this? what if someone typed YOU were the shady one, and YOU were the one that caused the failure of the manitouwadge club, with no basis of fact?

Why not? It is a possibly is it not? Your right I have no facts to back it up. The samething can be said to others saying the club closing is the fault of the Ontario Government, who gives the OFSC $100,000s in free money every year.

I doubt I'm right, but I doubt the others are right as well. I just gave another point of view.

[slomo]

Why is this Dalton's problem? What about Harper? If we are just going to blame the government for everything, make sure you include everyone.

For all we know, its flat out the clubs issue, maybe they where running a shady operation or not wiling to follow the rules, and the OFSC shut them down because of this.

The world is in a slow down and things like selding get hit first, but if your looking to point fingers at someone, forget our government. You should be thankful we did as well as we have during all this. Take that finger (the middle one) and point it south, at the US and how their changing of banking and stock trading rules alowed things to fall apart. Be thankful your not living in a places like Grease or Iceland, countries that are basicaly bankrupt.

Doesn't matter who was in power in Ontario or Ottawa, things still would have still fallen apart.

Agree 100%..Lived half my life in northern one resource towns, seen governments come and go, been there and know what I'm talking about. Surprised McGinty isn't being blamed for the Greek bankruptcy crisis...

[sledjunk]

Agree 100%..Lived half my life in northern one resource towns, seen governments come and go, been there and know what I'm talking about. Surprised McGinty isn't being blamed for the Greek bankruptcy crisis...

That one they're blaming on Harris.

[02Sled]

The govenrment including the provincial Fiberals bailed out the auto industry. Maybe we can get them to bail out the northern towns. They are willing to give tax credits of $10,000.00 to someone who hires a new immigrant. Maybe they would be willing to make sledding expenses spent in the north tax deductible. Stay in a northern hotel, keep the receipt and deduct it from your taxes. Same with meals, fuel, entertainment. The influx of tourism dollars to these areas would be huge.

[Canuck]

Stay in a northern hotel, keep the receipt and deduct it from your taxes. Same with meals, fuel, entertainment. The influx of tourism dollars to these areas would be huge.

I like it. There is a precedent for these types of incentives - I believe that northern drivers pay less for vehicle renewal stickers, receive 'vouchers' to visit health specialists, etc.

If the north is identified as an area to preserve it should be fueled with these types of incentives.

It's odd that mainstream media jumps on the bandwagon to preserve trees and animals, but little is said when the culture of a community (or a community itself) is in danger.

[dweese]

Maybe they would be willing to make sledding expenses spent in the north tax deductible. Stay in a northern hotel, keep the receipt and deduct it from your taxes. Same with meals, fuel, entertainment. The influx of tourism dollars to these areas would be huge.

Would it? Those of us who like to spend the weekend in the great outdoors is dropping. One or two of my friends would enjoy it, but most others going north doesn't sound like fun. They want the bright lights of the big city. People have lost touch with the great outdoors. 80% of the population of Ontario lives within 50kms of the 401, and most are afraid to leave the area, or just don't want too.

[sledjunk]

Would it? Those of us who like to spend the weekend in the great outdoors is dropping. One or two of my friends would enjoy it, but most others going north doesn't sound like fun. They want the bright lights of the big city. People have lost touch with the great outdoors. 80% of the population of Ontario lives within 50kms of the 401, and most are afraid to leave the area, or just don't want too.

I am not sure I agree. The number of rooms booked up north during sledding season is quite impressive. While you are correct about where people live, most sledders cannot sled much that close to where they live and so will travel to where the snow is. Many of us do that now. If there were tax incentives, that may well increase.

However, I will not hold my breath that, regardless of the outcome of the election, we will see anything like that soon.

[dweese]

However, I will not hold my breath that, regardless of the outcome of the election, we will see anything like that soon.

Yup I agree, because no matter who you vote for the goverment always wins.

[couchrocket500]

Yup I agree, because no matter who you vote for the goverment always wins.

Good one Dave

[Ox]

... but Manitouwadge is not a one industry town at all....

I am sure that there is a logging mill in town somewhere, but not sure that I have seen it. But I DOO know of two huge mines about 30 klicks S of town that employs a LOT of Mani people!

Last I knew - Gold mines were running at full capacity eh?

Not that _ that has anything to doo with the tourism related stuff in town. Even the motel wouldn't likel.y be relivent to the mines eh? I would think that White River would pick up that clientel?

Tourism is down b/c we aint got no $ for the basics down here, let alone playing. That is part of the werld of tourism. It comes and goes with the good times. Nothing more and nothing less to it.

Also - keep in mind that "The Good Times" were all on credit, and sooner or later - the other shoe had to drop. So the good times were artificial and not sustainable. This was not some little blip in the economy. The closest thing to relate to is the 30's.

FWIW - I think that we will be getting up there again this yr for the first time in three yrs? I think I lost one chumm for several yrs to come, but I have another that is thinking that he is heading N with us this yr to make up for some riding that he didn't git last yr when he messed up his back. But while my riding areas won't likely be touched, we will have a harder time accessing it too. Halfway, Minitouwadge, and Center Inn all down now. Leaves Wawa.

May have to tow in our own weekends worth of fuel ourselves and set up camp. YUK! But at least we wikll likely be buying some permits - although the likelyhood of us using more than just a few klicks of groomed trail to git into town is getting even more remote.

Or maybe trailer to the snow for a day and trailer back out? Sleep in the truck maybe? Not gunna help the local businesses out that way tho...

.

[slomo]

The govenrment including the provincial Fiberals bailed out the auto industry. Maybe we can get them to bail out the northern towns. They are willing to give tax credits of $10,000.00 to someone who hires a new immigrant. Maybe they would be willing to make sledding expenses spent in the north tax deductible. Stay in a northern hotel, keep the receipt and deduct it from your taxes. Same with meals, fuel, entertainment. The influx of tourism dollars to these areas would be huge.

A good idea. I might also facetiously add that maybe some of the money being spent on helping immigrants get settled might also be spent on showing city people the error of their ways, and helping them move to the north. If we don't reverse the trend of the population migrating to urban areas, the rural areas will be lost. Or maybe get the immigrants to settle in the north. These hard working people always seem to make a go of it wherever they are.

[Ox]

A good idea. I might also facetiously add that maybe some of the money being spent on helping immigrants get settled might also be spent on showing city people the error of their ways, and helping them move to the north. If we don't reverse the trend of the population migrating to urban areas, the rural areas will be lost. Or maybe get the immigrants to settle in the north. These hard working people always seem to make a go of it wherever they are.

Are you kidding me?

Why would you want to send more people to the North?

What's there?

Other than the industries that are already there, you would have to make something up to send jobs as well? And there is no way that those products would be competatively made there, as you would have to pay some-one extra $ to git them there and keep them. Othjerwise why not stay where you like it?

As a country boy, I hate cities, and am VERY glad that they exist ... for others....

I'm guessing that you folks missed the "bussing" thing of the 70's that we had? (racial)

.

[Blackfly]

Allow me to introduce myself - My name is Ron Jung and I am the sole remaining executive member of the Manitou Sno Drifters - Treasurer.

This thread was passed to me by a fellow snowmobiler and Editor of Ontario News North for comment.

Myself and few others have worked tirelessly for the past few years to keep the club in good standing with the OFSC.

We had many successes of rerouting trails, installing bridges, acquiring a more modern groomer, getting signage up to the required standard and attracting riders and volunteers. In the end it proved too much work for too few people to be able to comply with the rightfully high standards required of membership.

Your information is mostly correct.

First a correction "officially NO MORE" is wrong - the corporation of Manitou Sno Drifters Inc is still solvent. There has been no effort to dissolve the corporation. Having said that we have no other directors or members and therefore have limited activity at this time.

The corporation is being kept alive because we still have potential as a local club. Similar to many years ago before snowmobiling was organized to the degree it is today. If local sledders want to participate in the comradarie of snowmobiling and indeed there has been interest in this concept, they will still have a club as a formal mechanism to do this. We have new group of sledders emerging, those with long track sleds commonly referred to as mountain sleds which are allowing for riding in virgin snow.

Local clubs can still exist without being members of the OFSC. However they do forfeit the many benefits of membership in the OFSC.

We did receive a registered letter from the OFSC advising us that the club has been suspended from the OFSC.

This is according the to OFSC Policy Manual which states that all the requirements of membership must be completed by June 1st of the current membership year.

Due to the lack of an executive and volunteers we were unable to meet the requirements of membership in the OFSC.

The policy manual is clear on "all assets purchased with trail permit dollars in whole or in part and/or funds raised in the name of snowmobiling must remain within the snowmobiling community, either by transfer to a neighbouring club and/or to the District Board for further assignment." This is a very important clause that all member clubs should be familiar with especially those with significant assets.

The TS110 New Holland tractor and drag were returned to the Hornepayne club last season.

I have worked with our neighbouring clubs as well as the new District 16 Executive in dealing with the distribution of the few other assets the club has.

All of our trails D109A, D110A and local trails have been removed from all maps and all accessable signage has been removed. Most trails are now impassable due to brush, windfalls etc. There is still a tremendous amount of work left to do the meet the requirements of removing trails from the trail network.

The Sno Drifters website has been closed for now. The OFSC has removed all references to the Sno Drifters trails from their website. This was all done to limit the risk to both the OFSC, the Manitou Sno Drifters and the snowmobiling fraternity.

With the suspension we are also unable to sell permits. We encourage you to purchase your permits on line and direct your dollars to those clubs in the area where you ride.

I also invite you to come to Manitouwadge. We do have several Bed and Breakfast establishments all of which are run by some of the best outdoors people in the area. They can offer you off trail riding experiences as well as tours along with their fine establishments. We also have very inexpensive housing which has attracted many seasonal and permanent residents. Some come for the summer months - ATVing, fishing,relaxing and some for the winter months of sledding, skiing on a first class hill, cross county skiing and other activities. Others have come for permanent residency to get away from the hustle and bustle, heat and humidity and expensive lifestyles of other communities.

We are not a dead or a dying town. We are a town in transition and the residents will continue to show the resilience that have kept some us here for more than 50 years. Looking forward to seeing you this winter.

[couchrocket500]

Thanks for setting the record straight Blackfly, can understand few can do only so much, best of luck down the road and best wishes to all envolved.

[sledjunk]

Blackfly, welcome to the forum.

It is sad to hear of your scenario, both from your point of view and from the impact to snowmobiling in the area. I wish you all the best and I hope that you will continue to contribute to the forum to keep us informed of the changes and opportunities in your area.

[skidooboy]

Ron, thank you for comming on and addressing this. we are one of the groups of off trail mountain sled riders, that have migrated to the area from trail riding for a different experience. we have spent many days with dan and carole. they have shown us several areas, and we have found some connectors to make loops for a complete powder busting day without seeing much of the former ofsc trails.

i like your persistance beleiving with the right group, and like minded people you can make a go of it for winter tourism. the wilderness experience up there, is the main draw for riders looking for this type of riding. and from what i can tell, this market is growing. and i hope you guys can build on this idea.

personally i am saddened that the club could not continue with the ofsc and maintaining the connecting top trails to other neighboring communities, as this feaure offered many options for loop and day riding. but, on the other hand, i am excited for the future of this large area, which is capable of giving people like us, an experience like no other region can provide at this time.

this area has been very good to us by both the people, the accomdations, the riding, and the experiences. it is one of the areas we look forward to comming to for our yearly rides. save some powder for us, and hopefully we could get a chance to spend a day with you, enjoying what your area has to offer. EXTREME WILDERNESS RIDING!

all of these pics were taken last season in your area riding from town. i have also edited the title of the thread to reflect the correct circumstances. i am hoping at some point more people will come visit manitouwadge, and enjoy what we have known for a long time...

this area and people are AWESOME!

ski (eric in michigan)

[AkronOrange]

I have written many times on this subject. Those of us that have ridden the northern trails know exactly how beautiful they are and how great the people have been and how hard they work for us.

In this current ecomony funding must change. With staggering unemployment and volunteer numbers dwindling; the northern clubs don't have the support to maintain the trails nor do they have the resources to buy permits. It's not that they're not trying or they don't want to - they can't.

I don't know the politics behind who decides the distribution of the funding, but if the northern trails are to stay open funding must change. The clubs of the north will never sell enough permits to obtain the funds they need to properly maintain the trails, safety will ultimately be compromised and the trails will be closed. We are seeing it now, last year A107A and D109A were closed, now the Manitouwadge club is done and others are barely hanging on.

If the OFSC (or whoever makes these decisions) values the "trail system" they will make some changes. As mentioned earlier, once the trails are gone, those businesses that supported us will leave. If the Hillsport Hilton and The Wilderness Lodge close, we can't make it from Hornepayne to Longlac, there are similar situations all over the north. Once that infistructure is gone the touring part of our sport is too. There will no longer be a trail system, there will only be local club trails. Why not eliminate the trail pass system and have the clubs orgainize their own trail passes? Then each of these can just keep all of their own funds and they won't have to share with anyone? Isn't it the (North)American way! We could even eliminate the "North" forum from here and each area could have their own site.

I buy my permit each year from the Longlac club, it would be easier for me to just get it from Port Sydney or one of those clubs, but that doesn't seem right. If the system continues to fragment and trails continue to close, I know I will not continue to ride. I will not ride with the weekend warrior morons in cottage country that ruin this great sport and give us all a bad reputation.

If you really care about these trails I encourage you to write to the proper representatives and request change. I don't know who they all are and nor do I claim to have the answers, but I do know that it does make a difference if you express your feelings. I know that several years ago, the A107A trail was groomed after I made several calls and had written a few letters to the OFSC. I will be writing again this year.

Our group plans on riding New Liskeard, Cochrane, Hearst, Hornepayne, Chapleau, D'ville, and Longlac if we can.

Regardless of where you ride, ride safe.

[dweese]

Why not eliminate the trail pass system and have the clubs orgainize their own trail passes?

I think that's how it worked before the OFSC was created.

The problem with it, I can cross between 5 clubs on a 100km Sunday ride because of how the riding loop we run is set up in my area.

So if I buy my permit from club A, than I ride club B, C, D, and E's trails as well on my Sunday ride how is that fair to those clubs, because I didn't buy a permit from them, for those trails, but they still have to let me ride them?

The ATV clubs of Ontario have this problem now, they do not have a Province wide body like the OFSC to look after everything. My brother buys 2 different permits every year for his 2 ATVs so that he can cross between regions and not get a ticket.

Maybe there is an issue in the funding system, who knows. But by the way Ron's post reads its not a money issue, its a man power issue.

[AkronOrange]

Maybe there is an issue in the funding system, who knows. But by the way Ron's post reads its not a money issue, its a man power issue.

I realize it's a variety of problems. If I were King I would value the integrity of the system, over everything else. As economic conditions change so must the rules of the federation. Could Hornepayne help groom to Manitouwadge? Could Hearst groom to Longlac? Could funds be diverted from those "fat" clubs that groom trail that aren't needed? I have ridden Sudbury and numerous areas throughout Muskoka where there are so many trails leading to the same place it becomes confusing. Do you think these clubs area creating these trails so they can keep the trail dollars in their system? As long as the hotels and restaurants in my area are full, that's all I care about. I'll figure a way to manipulate the system so I can take care of me. I honestly don't know if that is really the case but there definitely is not a fair distribution of the trail funds.

Seems to me from this side of the boarder, that the vision has been lost, and no one wants to step in and piss any one off. Kind of like us down here trying to look out for everyone and compromising the values on which we began.

[The Groomer Guy]

Let's not forget... the problem is not just MONEY...... its volunteers also. there is not as many. we have the same problem.

[couchrocket500]

Maybe it's time to think outside the box. Have a Cain's Quest sort of endurance thing but in N. Ontario . Get the manufacturers to sponser as well as Ontario Tourism. Dooable?, I don't know, just throwing it out there. Just seems a shame to let it all go.

[skidooboy]

before the cains quest there was the challenge kanada, in northern ontario. but, you do understand these adventure races have nothing to do with any trail system correct? they are a navagation, and endurance challenge where nothing is marked, except the check in stations across many miles of remote wilderness.

this would do nothing to aid the plight of a trail closure, club failure, or town downsizing. it is a one time fly through deal.

i really think if you made it a money deal, and people could actually make a wage clearing, marking, prepping, signing, grooming ect.. v.s this volunteer no pay "slavery" i think you would get more people involved, to the point you would be turning people away.

say if i was laid off in the winter but, could make a wage upkeeping the trail system, i would consider that as my addition to my income, and do that to supplement my income, and help the club and community at the same time.

but if i am laid off, and money is tight, i need to stay home, spend less, and look for work to supplement my income. helping out becomes secondary, when you need to help yourself or family.

[Blackfly]

Every post in this thread has valid points and the solution to the problem is not an easy one, if there is one at all.

I want to reiterate that the OFSC was very supportive of the Manitou Sno Drifters. We had successes as mentioned of installing a two part bridge after almost 10 years, yes 10 years of planning, dealing with Ministries, seeking funding and completing the task. We were also awarded a relatively new groomer to maintain our trails. Money was not the primary cause of our failure to be able to comply with the standards needed for membership in the OFSC. The OFSC has a funding matrix that works and yes there are loopholes that can be exploited but in general it does work. Never forget though that it is a business and must be run accordingly, especially since we are accountable to the public.

One of the major reasons for lack of interest in any executive position and volunteering is the risk and liability involved. One only needs to look at the newest signage. A sign that used to have 5 words "Use at your own risk" is now a sign that has over 250 words that must be posted at every road crossing in both directions to be sure it was noticed. Few volunteers want to be held liable for a missing sign or a bump in the trail, nor do they want the responsibilities legislated under the various Acts and Regulations. The OFSC has recognized this problem and is working with each and every club to try and eliminate risk and liability to members, volunteers and executive. Even fewer volunteers want to be treated as employees. Larger clubs with greater financial resources can have paid employees and possibly their executive is made up of people with experience the various positions.

Raising funds annually is mostly through permit sales and a stable but older population has resulted in reduced memberships. Fundraising is very difficult - there are many competing clubs for limited dollars. Having raffles, poker runs and things of that nature are next to impossible and the funds can only be used for certain things according to the legislation.

The volunteer model used for the current method of operation, in my opinion, is not sustainable. I cannot think of any other business that requires the amount of physical work that snowmobile clubs have, operating on a volunteer basis. Back in the day clubs were volunteers that got together with other people with similar interests. Some club members went fishing making trails along the way. Others may have organized small events like poker runs, BBQ's or dances and other get togethers. These were fun times and there is movement underway to return to this type of club.

In a small community such as ours the volunteers ask themselves who is really benefitting from their hard work? Weekend after weekend of brushing, cutting trails, repairing machinery, operating machinery - sometimes 50 km from any help. Yes tourism helps and perhaps those meals that are sold and rooms that are rented along with parts and perhaps fuel will help the business owners in the winter months. So is it fair to say the volunteers are working for the benefit of those businesses? In some cases the business owners are volunteers themselves wondering if the time spent on this activity could have a greater return on investment if they were working on something else?

I do not have the resources to confirm but I can imagine that the Sno Drifters are not the first to be suspended and we certainly won't be the last.

For those of you that dedicate your permit dollars to the northern clubs - thank you, it really helps, to those of you that travel to our part of the world we are also grateful for your visit, we hope you enjoyed your stay and experienced what we do every day of every winter. I encourage you again to look at our area for an alternative snowmobile experience. Rent a mountain sled, trailer it up and come Play in the Extreme. Thank you also to the moderators for correcting the title of the thread. An internet search will now result in a more positive impression.

http://www.ofsc.on.ca/trail-use.html For the actual "Use at Your Own Risk" sign.

[hi-mileage]

Every post in this thread has valid points and the solution to the problem is not an easy one, if there is one at all.

I want to reiterate that the OFSC was very supportive of the Manitou Sno Drifters. We had successes as mentioned of installing a two part bridge after almost 10 years, yes 10 years of planning, dealing with Ministries, seeking funding and completing the task. We were also awarded a relatively new groomer to maintain our trails. Money was not the primary cause of our failure to be able to comply with the standards needed for membership in the OFSC. The OFSC has a funding matrix that works and yes there are loopholes that can be exploited but in general it does work. Never forget though that it is a business and must be run accordingly, especially since we are accountable to the public.

One of the major reasons for lack of interest in any executive position and volunteering is the risk and liability involved. One only needs to look at the newest signage. A sign that used to have 5 words "Use at your own risk" is now a sign that has over 250 words that must be posted at every road crossing in both directions to be sure it was noticed. Few volunteers want to be held liable for a missing sign or a bump in the trail, nor do they want the responsibilities legislated under the various Acts and Regulations. The OFSC has recognized this problem and is working with each and every club to try and eliminate risk and liability to members, volunteers and executive. Even fewer volunteers want to be treated as employees. Larger clubs with greater financial resources can have paid employees and possibly their executive is made up of people with experience the various positions.

Raising funds annually is mostly through permit sales and a stable but older population has resulted in reduced memberships. Fundraising is very difficult - there are many competing clubs for limited dollars. Having raffles, poker runs and things of that nature are next to impossible and the funds can only be used for certain things according to the legislation.

The volunteer model used for the current method of operation, in my opinion, is not sustainable. I cannot think of any other business that requires the amount of physical work that snowmobile clubs have, operating on a volunteer basis. Back in the day clubs were volunteers that got together with other people with similar interests. Some club members went fishing making trails along the way. Others may have organized small events like poker runs, BBQ's or dances and other get togethers. These were fun times and there is movement underway to return to this type of club.

In a small community such as ours the volunteers ask themselves who is really benefitting from their hard work? Weekend after weekend of brushing, cutting trails, repairing machinery, operating machinery - sometimes 50 km from any help. Yes tourism helps and perhaps those meals that are sold and rooms that are rented along with parts and perhaps fuel will help the business owners in the winter months. So is it fair to say the volunteers are working for the benefit of those businesses? In some cases the business owners are volunteers themselves wondering if the time spent on this activity could have a greater return on investment if they were working on something else?

I do not have the resources to confirm but I can imagine that the Sno Drifters are not the first to be suspended and we certainly won't be the last.

For those of you that dedicate your permit dollars to the northern clubs - thank you, it really helps, to those of you that travel to our part of the world we are also grateful for your visit, we hope you enjoyed your stay and experienced what we do every day of every winter. I encourage you again to look at our area for an alternative snowmobile experience. Rent a mountain sled, trailer it up and come Play in the Extreme. Thank you also to the moderators for correcting the title of the thread. An internet search will now result in a more positive impression.

http://www.ofsc.on.ca/trail-use.html For the actual "Use at Your Own Risk" sign.

So clubs have fund raising and you are told what you can spend funds on,am I reading this correct??I would spend it where the club votes to spend it,frig the ofsc!!Its club money,not theirs!!Oh Canada,true north strong and FREE,yeah right,were no better then Russia!!!

[dweese]

So clubs have fund raising and you are told what you can spend funds on,am I reading this correct??I would spend it where the club votes to spend it,frig the ofsc!!Its club money,not theirs!!Oh Canada,true north strong and FREE,yeah right,were no better then Russia!!!

Its the same for schools. Our youngest is in grade 8, and they are doing fund raising for their end of the trip. But all money has to be split with the whole school. Even the JK class that doesn't have a end of the year trip, gets some of the money their raise. Other organizations that do fund rasing have to follow the same rules, been like this for almost 20years.