skidooboy Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I would think that this will lose "TOP Trail" status, and I would guess that the push will be on the trail from The Soo to Aubrey that was posted above will be the main trail N? I hafta think that trail sees more snow than D along the lake down in farm country. ??? As long as someone will be open in the Aubry area and Chapleau is open for business, I would bet F will be the main trial N - at least this next yr. so you know chad.... the F trail from aubrey falls to flame lake and on to chapleau has not been listed "open" the last 2 seasons. this trail does not seem to get as much snow as the area closer to the lake gets as of late. i am guessing you are seeing the begining of the seperation between the sofsc and the nofsc trails systems (southern ontario, northern ontario). it is sad but, it comes down to money, and this area does not have the money, the manpower, or the traffic to warrant continued grooming for these trails, with the amount of traffic that is there at this time. i wish there was a better outlook but, you have to be realistic as well. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 They are NOT out of business by any means. These are NOT abandoned structures. . They are NOT open next winter. The property IS for sale. My suggestion is based on those facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 They are NOT open next winter. The property IS for sale. My suggestion is based on those facts. the property has been for sale for many years. they are planning on being open for "fair weather" spring, summer fall, fishing, hunting, atv season's. as ox and gail have stated.... it is very work intensive to keep this property open in the winter months. just keeping the driveway (read: two track/small bush road) from the main haul road to the buildings and fuel tanks is close to 30 klicks (if i remember right). steve would pay to have this opened a few times a season by grader, at a very high cost to them. the smaller snows he would plow himself with their truck. can you imagine your drive way being 30 klicks long and you having to maintain it on your own??? not a small or easy chore. and it has to be maintained to get the fuel in there from the chapleau side. there really is no easy fix. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 If D was abandoned*, then there would be more $, time, and equipment available for F. And would likely be prioritised much more. I understand that there is a snowpack issue to some degree, but I have ridden the Aubrey area many times, and usually there is plenty of snow to open the trail. I know there have been times, but two yrs ago there wasn't enough snow N of Alabama for a snowball fight. No-matter where you were. If it comes to resources other than snow - I would Shirley think that those resources would be re-prioritised to move up the F. Also - with the promise of MUCH more traffic - along would come MUCH more incentive to git their bush-whacking done. I would think that if D is not groomed/maintained, then F will see 4x the traffic that it would have otherwise. No? I have only ridden a few klicks on F, but I hafta think that it is a very beautifull trail. I know I like to drive 129. er ... uh .... I mean that the scenery along 129 is beautifull! DRIVING that road is a moose of a nother colour! Been many yrs since I have been up 129 all the way to Chap, so I kant think what the terrian is there, but I believe that it has to level out quite a bit eh? Actually - their "driveway" is far from a two-track. And AFAIK you can now access it via 17 via branded new (albiet - in very rugged terrain) logging road as well. But yes - they doo hafta plow some yrs 30 klicks, and sometimes up to 100 klicks out to 101 if no-one is currently hauling at that time. Makes my 1/2 mile long driveway seem short. Not many can say that... Doo to "Jeep Hill" this rd will likely not see much winter hauling on it this far in. Unless maybe it was one-way traffic - going DOWN that hill. Too much iron has been over the sides of that hill. My truck was even thinking about it once! I wouldn't say that the joint has been for sale for "many" yrs. It has been for 3 yrs I believe, and they intentionally listed it before they were really hoping to sell it - knowing that it would take some time to find the right couple to take it over. Keeping in mind that Steve is the only one getting old there. Many'a man would drool over it, but women like Gayle are few and far between - even in Algoma. It is a two hr drive on bush roads just to git to pavement, then decide which way your going from there.... They don't git out much more then I doo! Maybe a feller needs to find some chick from the City in Ohio to move there? (You out there Longlac? ) * Also - if D is abandoned - I would expect several Yanks to stay home. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 hwy 17 is on one side of the canyon, hwy 129 is on the other. the terrain is very similar (read: difficult to maintain a "trail"). the problem becomes the manpower and distance. wawa to searchmont is approx 170 trail miles. 90 or so on searchmont's side to halfway haven... then 80 or so from wawa to halfway. this is with 2 clubs sharing the responsibility. on the turn of the coin chapleau to flame lake approx 60 miles. flame lake to aubrey falls approx 50 miles (110 miles or more total one way for that one club/district). the most difficult portion of this is the section from flame lake to aubrey. it is very rocky, hilly, with the low lands very wet. this is the reason we are most given for why the trail isnt opened every season. then you have the searchmont/soo clubs grooming from the echo bay, searchmont area 75-90 miles. and elliot lake to aubrey (unsure of that mileage). keep hating to repeat myself but.... it's not an easy fix. you are trading one set of problems, for possibly a larger set problems/concerns. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 I don't know what you mean by Canyon? Yes - there are many "canyon" areas in there - but only b/c there is many peaks as well. This is the highest relative point in N Ontario. Between 17 and 129 is the Atlantic / Artic watershed sepparation. (read continental divide of the north) Also splits Superior and Huron drainages as well. However - yes - there is some VERY serious topography in there. Especially right near Aubrey. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 the algoma, and agawa canyons topography is what i mean when i say "canyon" area. it refer's to exactly what you stated. lots of serious topography. the larger PEAKS AND VALLEY'S at least for this part of the continent, west of the rockies, east of the smokie's. it's not flat by any stretch but, you know that. that is what the draw is for us adventure types. the ruggedness of the terrain. but, this is also what is the downfall of most avg everyday people... the ruggedness, of the terrain. LOL! ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 The F Trail is very tight and has more abrupt elevation changes and tight turns. I have seen 4 very near head on collisions between Aubrey Falls and Flame Lake. It is very much a "trail" compared to the roads used by the D trail from Searchmont to Toll Creek.(Assume that the by-pass trail is not used.) Realizing that an ice storm can change everything in trail areas by pulling down branches and full trees, some trail blocking is usual in the best of seasons. In trail areas, no grooming will cut off trails not used by fishing or camp access. Those trails will be kept open just enough to barely get through. The bigger roads will not be blocked as easily. It takes much less talent to run un-groomed wide open roads with gradual elevation changes and wide turns. If you are looking for the shortest, fastest, easiest way to connect the Soo Trails to the North Trails, it is by running D Trail to Toll Creek Road and then all the way to Hwy 129 where you connect to the F Trail just before Chapleau. This point is a stones throw from the 101 and 129 intersection and maybe 7 miles from the Esso gas station in Chapleau. It is Searchmont to Chapleau in 125 miles and at least 20 miles of this has never been groomed. Even breaking the not used 20 miles of this has let all the Arctic Cat Crossfires and Mountain Sleds (smaller tanks) cruise right through using less than a tank of gas. This route has always cut time and made the trip to Chapleau from Searchmont between 3 and 4 hours with stops. This is the simplest, most wide open route to get back north. It will tend to stay open vs tight trails and every summer the trees will be moved off the roads. By routing a "new" D Trail this way to Chapleau, it would keep the trail system open and in the years snow is present, the F Trail would be a great loop back down and around through Aubrey Falls and keep the Trading Post (truck stop)& Motel going which is needed to get sleds past Flame Lake and on to Elliot Lake also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 One fly in the ointment that comes to mind - is simply that Chap doesn't have much for motels rooms available doo they? Chap really aint a major tourist town I wouldn't think. ??? Like Wawa has enough rooms (if they were all open) to house half of Michigan I think. How many "bush trail" klicks do you spose there is between Searchmont and Anjigammi? The big loop at The Cow is prox 16 klicks long. Turning ratt back in on the next loop is another 8 roughly. These are not tight trails, but much more of an issue than Ranger N of course. The quick little out-takes other than these don't really add up to too much that I can think of enymore. Much of it has been cut open for roads, and the trail is now on The Beauparlant and Cross-over roads, scooting around some of the most tight trail left. The real tight and suseptible bush trail that heads directly into Halfway could very easilly be avoided too! INstead of turning up the hill into the bush there, just stay on the rd (northbound) and run it out to the T and cut back west to the hydro. You hafta climb Jeep Hill, but I hope most skidoos can accomplish that eh? BTW - speaking of canyons, you should see the hole in the ground that justifies that 16 klick loop off the hydroline. We have tried, but not been able to git through it to date. Just a piddly little crick, in the bottom of a deep trench! Once this trail is opened up via a groomer once (ass_u_me in that the ice storms would be in November) it shouldn't be too bad to keep passible, even if it got less than stellar attention. We have broken that trail open several times [back in the day] the day or two after 3 and 3-1/2 foot dumps of heavy snow, and never had enything worse than the snowladen pic that I posted earlier. Sure - there is down stuff here and there, but was never all that much of an issue. Of course we have tools for deadfall and have moved 12"+ trees out of the rd before, and that will slow you down... ... ok - those were in OUR road, not THE road. Also - on our March trip with the heavy snow the day before, I don't believe there was any deadfall at all that I can recall. Now a few yrs ago down around Aubrey - we had a LOT of deadfall in an April dump - and that was on a major wide road. Those trees were all the way accrost the rd. I believe they musta got some high winds following the heavy snow to take down 8" and bigger pines. ??? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 If the D gets groomed to Wawa GREAT! If not, it is much shorter to Chapleau and the split for both the Soo (75)miles and Chapleau (40)miles, would be much less. (The F is already groomed down to where you cross Hwy 129.) The 5 motels and the B&Bs have plenty of rooms except for the fishing derby weekend and that is the same in Wawa. They only wish they could fill them all weekends. This puts you on the F Trail so west, east , or south (conditions permitting) is possible. ??????? If nothing is groomed, this is the way I am going. There will be road plowing/sled tracks from both ends which makes 65 miles of the 125 miles easy enough. Now there is 60 miles left to keep tracks through. One set of tracks keeps the running easy enough to not use too much throttle. It will stay that way for a long time. Snow can build, but it never seems to ever totally work your sled like it is breaking fresh snow. Deep long drifts seem to harden up over time also. The worst condition I can imagine is many feet of fresh snow, but with an open road and long track sleds with power, stopping is normally your choice. I have many times run 30 miles making the first marks on a road. It is easy unless you have to stop due to a tree, the bridge is out, or drifts knock you off the road. Sharp turns just before a steep hill is the kind of thing Ski can do and this route eliminates. I hope that the trail system can stay intact! If not I know the easiest way north for me by sled, by Hwy 17, or by the Train. I guess it all depends on conditions anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I had no idea there was so many rooms in Chap. We broke trail from D over to Pineal Lake once many yrs ago down that road. I think that is about 30 klicks in one hitch? Was boring. Runnin' the motor @ 7000 and just toolin along. Could'a used cruise control... (yawn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I had no idea there was so many rooms in Chap. We broke trail from D over to Pineal Lake once many yrs ago down that road. I think that is about 30 klicks in one hitch? Was boring. Runnin' the motor @ 7000 and just toolin along. Could'a used cruise control... (yawn) Running deep snow without worry of stumps and rocks lets you play. It can be the most beautiful floating/carving in deep that is to be had! Stump jumping and rock crawling is not my style. Every time I jump off trail to climb a hill or play in a cut area there seems to be something waiting to damage my sled! This is the only route that makes it easy to ride your sled from Sault Ste. Marie to Cochrane in one day. I have shared this with a number of riders staying at Valentine's B&B and had the opportunity to speak with them the next day on the way to Searchmont. They never knew this route existed and had been running to Halfway before doing the rest of the ride home. They were amazed at how fast and beatiful the route was! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Thanks for providing the bypass route, AC.YA. Let's hope those areas get sufficient snow this winter, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 ONE DAY! ???? How many klicks is that? We have put in 17 hr days a cpl times just getting to Halfway. Have loved every minute of it - except for being tired from driving all night to git there the night before... Arrive at staging point before dawn and try to git a few Z's in, and then head out about 9. Arrive at 2AM. Makes for some long dayz! But I jist can't imagine pounding the trails hard enough to make it all the way up there in one day - other than a need for National Security. (Which nation shouldn't matter, we're both in Cheyenne Mountain) Hope you guys are running FAST rear suspensions! Speaking of land mines and Chap, the absolute werstest place that we have found for landmines to date is the hydro line between Anjigammi and Chap! That line must be relatively new compared to the others, and the stumps haven't been rotted away yet. ??? Man - they just lie and wait just below the surface! Here is a pic of my chumm on my sat phone to Gordy from right in front of the gates to Potholes Provincal Park, hoping that he has a trailing arm in stock for an Edge RMK. Hopefully a rad rod as well. It is decided that the park should be renamed to Landmines Provincal Park! We were anticipating staying in Chap that night, but we were back in Wawa at sundown. Fortunately he did have the trailing arm, but no rad rod for the narrower RMK. But we thought that it may hold together. ??? But it was derby weekend in Wawa, so there was no place to stay. A quick call to Halfway found that they had room for two straglers, so we unloaded at Anjigammi and headed S. Only made it a few clicks or so into the bush and my chumms rad rod did die. We sat there and discussed our options. (as if we had any) It was pitch black. We could not see each other at all. You literally couldn't have seen your hand in front of your face. It was DARK! While we're there "discussing" some old hoot owl is not too far away just'a laughin' it up at our expence. Or - I guess it is possible that he was throwing a hissy fitt b/c it was so dark that even he couldn't see? I don't know for sure. My "owl" is a bit rusty these dayz. Finally we tied the unruly ski to the other one via ratchet strap and turned back to the truck and drove home. We both now have spare rad rods and trailing arm inserts on board at all times. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I only play off trail if staying local because gas supply and getting back to comfort for the night is important to me. My boy tends to take chances along the way, but he figures Dad is going to pay for it. Towing his machine is also one of my least favorite things! Soo area to Cochrane 2 guys running AC CF-7's 8:30 AM Blueberry Motel to Searchmont North Route - 35 miles (gas) Searchmont to Chapleau - 125 miles (gas & eat) Chapleau to Foleyet - 85 miles and the slowest arm working twisties of the ride (gas & snack) Foleyet to Timmins - 95 miles (gas & eat) Timmins to Cochrane - 55 miles (motel) 9:30 PM Off to Antiby Canyon the next day for the loop. The next day a late start with a "take in all the stops" at all the open club houses over to Hearst and load onto the train that night when it came in to make for an easy morning. Get your snacks and sodas for the next day of kicking back on the train. Hop off when you finally make it down to Seachmont and get back to your motel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 That is average speed of 48 klicks/hr not counting breaks. At least your not speeding. The only time we ever rode from Blueberry to Searchmont, we couldn't hardly find the trail. I don't think that it was signed at all, and the snow from the day before would have covered any tracks. We were forever stopping and asking people "Which way did he go - which way did he go George." Constantly jumping on the rd for a ways, and then crossing over here, and there and ... I am forever gitting "lost" in urban settings on a skidoo. Git me out into the bush where it is safe! BTW - what is a "C"F-7 Other than your member stas - I have never heard of the many prefix's. ??? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Artic Cat Crossfire 700 136 inch track. (picture shows my Crossfire 1000 with same 136 inch track) We sometimes exceed the 50 kph limit on the downhill sections of the trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 thats alot of klicks or miles for a 12 hour day. but other than about 40 miles from the halfway turnoff to chapleau's grooming (most is road running anyway) it is all groomed trails, where you can really let it hang out. except for chap to folyette which is super tight twisty and slower than "normal". after folyette, you can hang out with your wang out. LOL! we used to run like that in the day. but now, i find it more enjoyable to go where no one goes, and only put 30-50 miles on a day. seeking out old air fields, gavel pits, hydro lines, river drainages ect... playing, and linking roads and trails together to make day loops. i understand why you dont worry about fuel now. with the crossfires, you have alomost 13 gallons. plus, if you carry a jerry can say with 2-3 gallons, you are well over 15 gallons now. even if you only got 10 mpg you could go at least 150-160 miles no stopping easy. YOU'VE GOT RANGE!!! LOL! the M8's only have the 10 gallon tank but, i have recently discovered i can install the CF tanks on our M's and get more range. you add 2.5 gallons of fuel to the sled so, you are adding about 15 pounds to the sleds mass. but, you are adding range. i am going to see if i can find a couple used cf tanks on snowest, or if someone with a cf wants to swap for an M8 tank and have an instant 15 pound weight reduction. LOL! i could spring for the trail tank for the M's... they even come in clear. LOL! then you can actually see how much fuel you have left. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 In 4 months we will know if the matrix will change, and then we will know if more money will be moved to the northern clubs. The other big unknown is, if the north receives more money, will they have the man power to make the changes necessary to relink the system in a way that fuel and necessities are provided within reasonable mileages to attract snowmobilers back to the region. Another thing that everybody needs to realize is that the "average" snowmobilers disposable income has decreased dramatically over the past 4 years. Rising fuel and motel costs have hurt the traveling snowmobiler. There are still the handful of diehards that will go where they can no matter what, but that group is most definatly getting smaller. The other thing to consider is that the northern region saw a huge amount of traffic for around 15 years, the trails have remained the same, with less money there seems to be a been there done that attitude, which is to be expected. Then of course there is the fact that the southern portion of the province has had a couple good years. Give the south a bad year,u will see allot more riders venturing off to seek riding where they can in the north. They will most likely go to where there are trails with gas every 100m, as the "average" sledder isn't gonna lug extra fuel with them. Halfway Haven made this trail doable for the average rider, even using AC+YA's route from searchmont to chapleau, it will not attract the average group. Everything has to go right for that route to work and for 90% of the sleds it is to risky to chance getting that kind of milage. I would think that these r the exact same reasons we saw the A107A close this past season. It will b hard to justify keeping a trail open that only a few are capable and willing to use. I will tell ya, my junk is bone dry at 94m, and I am not going to lug fuel around with me,it will hamper the way I choose to ride. The only thing that has saved me the last few years is a good riding partner with a rev can. It is to bad, but there is a huge lack of amenities in this region, especially with the unknown fuel situation in Aubrey Falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 honestly although the club/district money is a big deal... it isnt the biggest. the biggest deal is, local manpower. generally it is a (very) few dedicated business owners, or passionette sledders who are trying to work full time, run businesses, AND volunteer to keep these systems linked and opened. and sometimes, the locals and tourists critisize their disicisions, and how much time they spend "volunteering". who are they to judge??? "if you have time to complain.... you have time to help". comes to mind. some of us voice our support day in and day out but, i have saw and heard the horror stories of locals and non locals alike, and the complaints wear on our already worn out volunteers. in a perfect world it would be great to get these people a wage for the time they put into our systems. then maybe they could justify the time spent away from family and spare time. i know many different club volunteers, from brushers and signers, groomers, to club, and disctrict presidents. most of these people do it for the love of their communities for tourism and the sport. unfortunately many communities dont help or support their clubs very well. many of these people are really tired, and sooner or later are going to have a bad day, and get the wrong comment, and they will be gone from our sport forever. that in itself is a sad state of affairs. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Some great insight, above. Starting to wonder about Yamaha and its decision to go with smaller gas tanks (it started with the Nytro and continued with smaller tanks in Vector to accommodate power steering), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Yeah range is becomming a big factor, even down south with a lot of small town gas stations closing or operating with limited hours. I guess a good selling point for 4 strokes and etecs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Yeah range is becomming a big factor, even down south with a lot of small town gas stations closing or operating with limited hours. I guess a good selling point for 4 strokes and etecs. I ran "Tour Buddies" for years, but the Crossfires can carry so much fuel that I have run over 150 miles on a tank. Now we carry "Roto Pax" under the stock seats. The 1 gallon size fits even inside my pack. These are so well made, you can jump on them without fear of leaks. I carry 2 gallons when I am not sure of conditions, but have only used them to help others who have run out along the trails. With 2 gallons I have about a 175 mile range. Deep snow hurts range much more as the engine power/size gets smaller. My M8 with 153" track got 15 miles/gallon on the trail, but dropped quite a bit to 10 miles/gallon pushing a foot of snow where the 1000 motor is about 11.5 miles/gallon dropping to about 10.5 pushing a foot of snow. This is at high speeds. (Possibly downhill above the limit speeds?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTC500 Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Some great insight, above. Starting to wonder about Yamaha and its decision to go with smaller gas tanks (it started with the Nytro and continued with smaller tanks in Vector to accommodate power steering), I'm curious about your info about the smaller tank on the Vector. The Yamaha web site says the 2012 Vector has a 35.6L tank, same as my 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I'm curious about your info about the smaller tank on the Vector. The Yamaha web site says the 2012 Vector has a 35.6L tank, same as my 2010. My '07 has a 38.9 L tank, so the size went from 10 US Gal to 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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