There goes another one.... piston....

[nanoonanook]

Alright, I'm getting a little peeved. Here's the scoop:

14 months ago I bought an 02 ZRT600 with 5000 miles on it. It was/is in what appears to be good shape. Owned since new by an Arctic Cat mechanic who also ran 2 other sleds at the time. Anyway - 500 miles into my ownership, the ring clip let go and destroyed the #1 cylinder. That was last year.

On Friday night, I lost yet another piston (#3 this time). I don't know the cause yet, but the speculation is bad gas as the station that I fill up at frequently is 'out of gas' and has been for a week --- two young guys in their mid-twenties own the station. The not-so-trusty steed is at the shop again with many hopes that it will be fixed for my trip up north, starting early Thursday morning.

So, here is where I am. IF it is indeed bad gas, is a 4 stroke (non-turbo) more immune to a bad gas situtation?

I'm trying to figure out which way to go for next year. So far this is my thinking:

1) Stick it out - it's a part of the deal

2) Upgrade to something 4 stroke?

3) Dump ride and get a newer 2 stroke - such as MXZ SDI, or Snowpro 500 even.

What do you think?

Oh yes... I really have no brand loyalty and would hope not to see an unwarrented brand battle -- yes I know it's possibly a can of worms, but if we could all show some restraint!

Thanks for your thoughts,

A

[LuvMyViper]

Hey nanoonanook.. Yamaha 4-stroke will give you the what your looking for... Have you ever ridden a Yamaha 4-stroke? They are awesome!!!

[LuvMyViper]

I really have no brand loyalty and would hope not to see an unwarrented brand battle -- yes I know it's possibly a can of worms, but if we could all show some restraint!

No worries about that here.. The only ones that are allowed to battle here are mods and admin ..

And everyone knows that Yamaha have the best motors in the business as well as the best sleds (imo)... And also the best colour - blue

[Faceman]

Alright, I'm getting a little peeved. Here's the scoop:

14 months ago I bought an 02 ZRT600 with 5000 miles on it. It was/is in what appears to be good shape. Owned since new by an Arctic Cat mechanic who also ran 2 other sleds at the time. Anyway - 500 miles into my ownership, the ring clip let go and destroyed the #1 cylinder. That was last year.

On Friday night, I lost yet another piston (#3 this time). I don't know the cause yet, but the speculation is bad gas as the station that I fill up at frequently is 'out of gas' and has been for a week --- two young guys in their mid-twenties own the station. The not-so-trusty steed is at the shop again with many hopes that it will be fixed for my trip up north, starting early Thursday morning.

So, here is where I am. IF it is indeed bad gas, is a 4 stroke (non-turbo) more immune to a bad gas situtation?

I'm trying to figure out which way to go for next year. So far this is my thinking:

1) Stick it out - it's a part of the deal

2) Upgrade to something 4 stroke?

3) Dump ride and get a newer 2 stroke - such as MXZ SDI, or Snowpro 500 even.

What do you think?

Oh yes... I really have no brand loyalty and would hope not to see an unwarrented brand battle -- yes I know it's possibly a can of worms, but if we could all show some restraint!

Thanks for your thoughts,

A

That really sucks! Hope you can patch it b4 the ride. Me, I'm a Yamaha guy also. Bulletproof motors, no belt wear, last a long time.

[white dragon]

can tell you...don t buy a 800 polaris...have one & has motor woes...now a 600 is ok...polaris = pulled off lake and repaired in summer

[FreezerBurnt]

Alright, I'm getting a little peeved. Here's the scoop:

14 months ago I bought an 02 ZRT600 with 5000 miles on it. It was/is in what appears to be good shape. Owned since new by an Arctic Cat mechanic who also ran 2 other sleds at the time. Anyway - 500 miles into my ownership, the ring clip let go and destroyed the #1 cylinder. That was last year.

On Friday night, I lost yet another piston (#3 this time). I don't know the cause yet, but the speculation is bad gas as the station that I fill up at frequently is 'out of gas' and has been for a week --- two young guys in their mid-twenties own the station. The not-so-trusty steed is at the shop again with many hopes that it will be fixed for my trip up north, starting early Thursday morning.

So, here is where I am. IF it is indeed bad gas, is a 4 stroke (non-turbo) more immune to a bad gas situtation?

I'm trying to figure out which way to go for next year. So far this is my thinking:

1) Stick it out - it's a part of the deal

2) Upgrade to something 4 stroke?

3) Dump ride and get a newer 2 stroke - such as MXZ SDI, or Snowpro 500 even.

What do you think?

Oh yes... I really have no brand loyalty and would hope not to see an unwarrented brand battle -- yes I know it's possibly a can of worms, but if we could all show some restraint!

Thanks for your thoughts,

A

ring C clip is a common Cat problem been there done that on my 600 especially after 4000miles it is a time bomb just waiting

BTW your 02 ZRT is one sweet looking sled!!!

[Grimm]

4 stroke all the way and if you think there's bad gas at that station, avoid them. Maybe get a bunch of gas cans and fill them up on your way home from work.

[yamahas]

Like everyone has said, 4 stroke.I find them much cheeper to run then my old 2 stroke was. Oil change once a year and your good to go.

[Wildbill]

Alright, I'm getting a little peeved. Here's the scoop:

14 months ago I bought an 02 ZRT600 with 5000 miles on it. It was/is in what appears to be good shape. Owned since new by an Arctic Cat mechanic who also ran 2 other sleds at the time. Anyway - 500 miles into my ownership, the ring clip let go and destroyed the #1 cylinder. That was last year.

On Friday night, I lost yet another piston (#3 this time). I don't know the cause yet, but the speculation is bad gas as the station that I fill up at frequently is 'out of gas' and has been for a week --- two young guys in their mid-twenties own the station. The not-so-trusty steed is at the shop again with many hopes that it will be fixed for my trip up north, starting early Thursday morning.

So, here is where I am. IF it is indeed bad gas, is a 4 stroke (non-turbo) more immune to a bad gas situtation?

I'm trying to figure out which way to go for next year. So far this is my thinking:

1) Stick it out - it's a part of the deal

2) Upgrade to something 4 stroke?

3) Dump ride and get a newer 2 stroke - such as MXZ SDI, or Snowpro 500 even.

What do you think?

Oh yes... I really have no brand loyalty and would hope not to see an unwarrented brand battle -- yes I know it's possibly a can of worms, but if we could all show some restraint!

Thanks for your thoughts,

A

Detonation was likely the cause of the first failure and as well likely injured the other two pistons at the same time. The original injury accompanied by some more time and use as well as possibly another detonation occurrence has likely failed the second one. At this time I would suggest considering the replacement of the remaining piston as preventative maintenance. Yes bad gas can cause this especially if the original owner had "leaned" out the jetting for maximum performance and now ethanol fuel is all that you can get. Make sure that the carbs are set as they were when it left the factory and it will live a long and happy life.

As for your next choice of sleds. Yes the Yamys do tend to run a long time but not without thier own issues. Expensive oil changes,exhaust gaskets and a myriad of undercarriage issues. Plus should you experience an engine failure it is fatal.The cost of repairing these four strokes(any brand) is brutal.

Polaris 600 and smaller run well but factory parts for these sleds are sssslllllooooowww coming and some items on these sleds are far from well thought out.

Ski-Doo sleds for the most part run well but have a definite best before date as far as mileage goes. The E-Tecs are not problem free (rented out two sleds this weekend to E-Tec owners whose sleds died while they were on holidays) The 1200 seems excellent the 600 and smaller 2 strokes also run well not sold on the 800 as I have seen too many failures. Definitely some lack of durability in the chassis to impact but ride well.

Arctic Cat seems to have shaken off thier earlier engine woes and the new chassis work well some electrical issues are a bit of a pain in the butt however generally newer Cat owners seem to be very satisfied.

Almost all of today's two strokes feature a knock sensor which would have prevented your detonation failures. Ethanol gas will eventually fail all of the older technology two strokes as well as carbureted four strokes that do not have a knock sensor.

Your best bet is to buy from a dealer that you like and trust as a bad dealer can quickly make a bad experience out of a good sled and vice-versa. As well consider buying new only then will you know what type of life that it has had.

In the long run I have to say that today's sleds are the best ever made in the history of the sport(also the most expensive)

[skidooboy]

sorry to hear about your sled problem before a big trip. that sux, beeen there done that.

cat needs help in the primary clutch dept. their 3 tower clutches have been known to have roller issues, spiders breaking, and spider nuts backing out. cat no longer makes any replacement parts for any sleds newer than 07. cats fix for their bad primaries is A NEW CLUTCH ASSEMBLY. to the tune of about 479.00 usd. on our 2009 M8's i lost one primary at 900 miles, and one with less than 1400 miles. there is a bunch threads on snowest about bad cat clutches.

plus cat has diamond drive issues as well that need to be looked after.

all sleds have their quirks.... you just have to decide which ones you and your wallet are willing to deal with. ski

[cehyoopers]

good reply wild willy,,,,,, 4-stroke sleds are heavy,but ride the best on groomed trails,,,I own one of each,,,,but after 8 yrs on 4-strokes I have 2-stroke fever baby.The yamaha sleds are nice,but they are not without problems,,,,,,after all this is snowmobiling and I put the best the sled(s) have to the test,,,,, If you are not riding WFO then drop down a model,,,,

[Wildbill]

sorry to hear about your sled problem before a big trip. that sux, beeen there done that.

cat needs help in the primary clutch dept. their 3 tower clutches have been known to have roller issues, spiders breaking, and spider nuts backing out. cat no longer makes any replacement parts for any sleds newer than 07. cats fix for their bad primaries is A NEW CLUTCH ASSEMBLY. to the tune of about 479.00 usd. on our 2009 M8's i lost one primary at 900 miles, and one with less than 1400 miles. there is a bunch threads on snowest about bad cat clutches.

plus cat has diamond drive issues as well that need to be looked after.

all sleds have their quirks.... you just have to decide which ones you and your wallet are willing to deal with. ski

Have not seen any diamond drive issues that were not oil related. They say change the oil do it. Have not had any of the newer clutches fail but lots of the old ones. As far as cluches go that is a weak point on all sleds we do lots of work on brands of clutches. Usually from not being cleaned and serviced when they should have been.

[skidooboy]

beg to differ bill. DD issues can be from oil but, they also have the 6203 brg failure on the output gear issue. cat went with a single row brg and a spacer. we have been replacing them with 5203 or 4203 double row angular contact bearings. most 09-11 M series (and crossfires) will eat the output bearing with as little use as a few hundred klicks.

personally i drain the dd oil, add the flushing fluid from cat, then pull the covers for inspection to verify no internal damage to the planetary gears or bearings, every 500 miles. i dont just look at the fluid, run a magnet through it, and say good to go. i visually inspect each drive completely.

i understand most clutch failures are from maintainence. this isnt my first rodeo. i clean, inspect both clutches, and adjust deflection after each weekends ride as well. you can ask anyone that knows us or has seen our sleds. i am mr maintainence, mr clean, and mr anal-retentive. if this happens to my sleds. i cant imagine what happens to the avg user.

tens of thousands of miles on sleds. these are my first primary clutch problems. i have had doo and yamaha primaries go well over 8000 miles with zero issues.

like i said above, they all have their quirks. ski

[Wildbill]

beg to differ bill. DD issues can be from oil but, they also have the 6203 brg failure on the output gear issue. cat went with a single row brg and a spacer. we have been replacing them with 5203 or 4203 double row angular contact bearings. most 09-11 M series (and crossfires) will eat the output bearing with as little use as a few hundred klicks.

personally i drain the dd oil, add the flushing fluid from cat, then pull the covers for inspection to verify no internal damage to the planetary gears or bearings, every 500 miles. i dont just look at the fluid, run a magnet through it, and say good to go. i visually inspect each drive completely.

i understand most clutch failures are from maintainence. this isnt my first rodeo. i clean, inspect both clutches, and adjust deflection after each weekends ride as well. you can ask anyone that knows us or has seen our sleds. i am mr maintainence, mr clean, and mr anal-retentive. if this happens to my sleds. i cant imagine what happens to the avg user.

tens of thousands of miles on sleds. these are my first primary clutch problems. i have had doo and yamaha primaries go well over 8000 miles with zero issues.

like i said above, they all have their quirks. ski

Very sorry to hear about your issues and I do find it strange that 07-10 clutches are only available as a unit. I have seen less DD issues than chaincases but then the on trail riding that is prevelent in this area maybe less demanding than your off trail adventures although certainly less entertaining. We have lots of customers with these sleds with no issues but I will be looking closer to identify any of these issues. As you say they all have thier issues and in the long run it is the dealer that makes the difference.

[nanoonanook]

Thanks for your thoughts folks.

I've only ridden one 4 stroke - an 05 RX1. I love the motor, but man it's top heavy and well... heavy. My buddy who own's it is so afraid of going off trail that he rarely ventures off. I can't blame him.

That said, I think I am leaning towards the Nytro, 1200 4-tec or Z1 -- however handling and some off trail runs are very important. (yeah I know, I want my cake and I want to eat it too, but hey, today's my birthday so.... what-cha gonna do!?)

I have not heard of Yamaha issues beyond handling. Could you elaborate on the undercarrage issues?

Thanks again,

A

[pvsledhead]

My 05 Vector had the stator replaced at around 5000 miles.From what I read on TY it is a fairly common occurrance.Something to watch for on the 3 cylinders.(And exhaust donuts)

Never was happy with the ride or handling (mine was longtracked with ohlins shocks).Engine sounded nice though...

Steve

Thanks for your thoughts folks.

I've only ridden one 4 stroke - an 05 RX1. I love the motor, but man it's top heavy and well... heavy. My buddy who own's it is so afraid of going off trail that he rarely ventures off. I can't blame him.

That said, I think I am leaning towards the Nytro, 1200 4-tec or Z1 -- however handling and some off trail runs are very important. (yeah I know, I want my cake and I want to eat it too, but hey, today's my birthday so.... what-cha gonna do!?)

I have not heard of Yamaha issues beyond handling. Could you elaborate on the undercarrage issues?

Thanks again,

A

[ontariof7]

I could not be happier with my '08 Apex. 7,800 trouble free km's; other then changing two wheels. I change my own oil, it is actually quite easy. Not sure what undercarriage issues was being referred to????? The Apex does need the exhaust donuts changed every 4,000kms or every other season. $189 including parts, labour and taxes at the dealer.

Not knowing where and how you ride but be aware of the Nytro's small gas tank, 28litres. You will be one of the first looking for gas.

[DoktorC]

I change my own oil, it is actually quite easy. Not sure what undercarriage issues was being referred to?????

The old pro-action and the first mono's used to break W-arms...and then of course the 05 and 06's had some little wheel issues....but that's been taken care of. The exhaust donuts were/are only an issue if you don't realize it's something that needs to be changed every 4k...then you might have to spend a couple hundred on some exhaust parts, not a huge deal.

The REAL problem is that the hand warmers suck!!!

[cehyoopers]

Very sorry to hear about your issues and I do find it strange that 07-10 clutches are only available as a unit. I have seen less DD issues than chaincases but then the on trail riding that is prevelent in this area maybe less demanding than your off trail adventures although certainly less entertaining. We have lots of customers with these sleds with no issues but I will be looking closer to identify any of these issues. As you say they all have thier issues and in the long run it is the dealer that makes the difference.

wild wiily,I heard a few yrs ago because of liability issues clutches were not to be rebuild,,,perhaps you could check into that,it may even be brand specific???

even though my dd failure was possibly the result of a shot in the foot,,they are not without problems.There is a company making a chain replacment for them and I look for AC to go this way on the 2-strokes now that they have reversing motor reverse.Not for the 4-strokes though.The reason the company is making the chain replacement is to accept the bigger horsepower,seems the dd that AC builds has some short comings in that area.Do a google search and there will be quite a few failures.You will be surprised.AC took over the dd from from black diamond a few years back,and looks like they may have skimped out in a couple key areas...

I know the price will come down,but right now they are patent pending,,,

http://supremetoolinc.com/cart/sidewinder-diamond-drive-chaincase-upgrade-p-24.html

[blue er]

I have a 2006 apex with 11000km on it the engine will easily outlast 5 chassis, decent on fuel always starts great top end fit and finish second to none but i have had to replace slidersand wheels quite frequently, welded the skid a couple times, reapired some bad wiring, overall been pretty good, but at the same time next year it's going to be a apex xtx or a 800 e-tec renegade

[lastzrt]

Sorry about your luck with the 02 zrt. I owned one for 8000 trouble free miles, still one of my all time fav. trail sleds I have owned. I did change the carb boots a couple times as they were very prone to cracking, I would check yours very carefully.

ve been lucky with the Diamond Drive on my current sled, 09 CFR, just passed 4500 MIles when we stopped in to see Wildbill on a RAP tour last week. Nice store and shop Bill! I have changed the DD fluid

regularily though, and will do again after last weeks trip.

I rode my buddys new Apex a couple times on the trip and could not wait to get back on my own sled.

But man did we buy alot of oil last week.$$$$. My wife is thinking of going to a four stroke, waiting to see what Cat comes out with for 2012.

[yamahas]

The only problems i have with my yamaha is slide wear. Once you set up the sled, tune the suspension and re valve it will handle great. Slide wear can be fixed with bigger wheels or adding a wheel where it wears the most (at the front curve of the rails).

If you are looking to off trail with a yamaha 4 stroke, they nytro like you mentioned is probably your best bet imo.

[dweese]

We where pulled over and stopped talking on the way to Bancroft this weekend and a bunch of sleds passed us by. It was interesting to hear or not to hear the 4 strokes go by.

If you have been watching Snowtraxs on TSN at all you'll have seen they even being the Polaris sell outs they are, they like the 1200 Skidoo, but they do say the only nag is a little off the line lag because of a longer than normal intake track.

If I was looking to buy, I would be looking at Yamaha, because my local Skidoo dealer is losing his Skidoo line next month so I wouldn't have a local dealer. And lets face it, Yamaha is the leader in 4 stroke sleds because they have years of building bullet proof, high power, low weight motorcycle engines. So there is no doubt a lot of cross platform sharing of engine technology. None of the other manufactures have that backing them up.

[Domino]

So there is no doubt a lot of cross platform sharing of engine technology. None of the other manufactures have that backing them up.

Ummm, What about Johnson

I'm not against Yamaha, but I don't buy that line

Motorcycles and sleds are two different beasts.

[DoktorC]

Ummm, What about Johnson

I'm not against Yamaha, but I don't buy that line

Motorcycles and sleds are two different beasts.

You have a very valid point. Rotax actually makes ALOT of bike motors....and of course the ETEC of evinrude (which everyone else has too)...

But the fact remains that when it comes to 4 stroke technology Yamaha has that covered. Bikes and sleds are much more closely related in terms of engine performance expectation and wieght than sleds and outboards...