News from the North

[AkronOrange]

I have posted on similar subjects in the past. I have contacted OFSC about the disparity in funding, and I encourage you to do the same. I ride through Cochrane, Hearst, Longlac, Hornepayne, and Hillsport every year. I have seen the employment in those areas decimated. I heard that the unemployment in some of those areas is 80%. We, the people that enjoy touring, still need our trails and these areas need our money. I think the OFSC, and the "F" means; alliance, group, partnership, etc., should help clubs in need. Should all of the $$$ stay in cottage country? Could some of the neighboring districts help those in need or could the OFSC help find "volunteers" for grooming and trail patrol in exchange for a trail permit or even pay some of these volunteers?

It all seems to make sense from here in the States, I guess I just don't understand.

Regardless of where you decide to ride this season, please do it safely.

[Wildman]

I'm not getting into it with you nutter. You find controversy with 90% of your posts. You don't think the north should get any money, and that it is not a viable market. I disagree, and that is all I have to say.

[SlowTouringGuy]

I'm not getting into it with you nutter. You find controversy with 90% of your posts.

99%

[FreezerBurnt]

either parked, moved away with their owners or DON'T USE OFSC TRAILS!

As far as judging use or need by local permit sales, no one could ever justfy our trails by that measuring stick. Most trails in D 16 are there for the use and enjoyment of touring snowmobilers. How many times can you run the same couple of trails and not get bored? The whole TOP system is directed at touring snowmobilers. Our club (Nipigon Bay Snowmobile Club) had great dreams of loop trails that locals could (and would have) have some fun day trips on. At the end, it was all they could do to try to get the TOP trails open.

there in-lies the pipe dream

Nothing more then a touring destination for the rich and screw the locals, it is not about you guys its about the rest of the province

Locals can NOT support a local system like they would down south where you have tons of sledders

Is the OFSC trail system for locals or is it for the $$$ touring tourist?

[Nutter]

I have posted on similar subjects in the past. I have contacted OFSC about the disparity in funding, and I encourage you to do the same. I ride through Cochrane, Hearst, Longlac, Hornepayne, and Hillsport every year. I have seen the employment in those areas decimated. I heard that the unemployment in some of those areas is 80%. We, the people that enjoy touring, still need our trails and these areas need our money. I think the OFSC, and the "F" means; alliance, group, partnership, etc., should help clubs in need. Should all of the $$$ stay in cottage country? Could some of the neighboring districts help those in need or could the OFSC help find "volunteers" for grooming and trail patrol in exchange for a trail permit or even pay some of these volunteers?

It all seems to make sense from here in the States, I guess I just don't understand.

Regardless of where you decide to ride this season, please do it safely.

Questions I ask myself when concerning this issue ....

Does any one person or group within the OFSC have the right to dictate where a permit buyers money goes, other then how it's divided within the funding model agreed on by majority vote of the membership ?

What percentage of permit money from "Joe" from Cloyne On who only rides local, should go to areas he doesn't ride in, taking into consideration Joe already sees less trails, grooming and trail maintanance in his area because a portion of his permit dollars is all ready subsizing these areas ? Then I look at myself who rides a couple times a season up north, but buy from my local club because I do 90%+ of my miles on local trails, some amount of my permit money makes it's way north ... but is it enough to supoport the share I ride on in the north ?

I find it's one tough cookie to share when I ask myself these questions ....

[FreezerBurnt]

I have posted on similar subjects in the past. I have contacted OFSC about the disparity in funding, and I encourage you to do the same. I ride through Cochrane, Hearst, Longlac, Hornepayne, and Hillsport every year. I have seen the employment in those areas decimated. I heard that the unemployment in some of those areas is 80%. We, the people that enjoy touring, still need our trails and these areas need our money. I think the OFSC, and the "F" means; alliance, group, partnership, etc., should help clubs in need. Should all of the $$$ stay in cottage country? Could some of the neighboring districts help those in need or could the OFSC help find "volunteers" for grooming and trail patrol in exchange for a trail permit or even pay some of these volunteers?

It all seems to make sense from here in the States, I guess I just don't understand.

Regardless of where you decide to ride this season, please do it safely.

Questions I ask myself when concerning this issue ....

Does any one person or group within the OFSC have the right to dictate where a permit buyers money goes, other then how it's divided within the funding model agreed on by majority vote of the membership ?

What percentage of permit money from "Joe" from Cloyne On who only rides local, should go to areas he doesn't ride in, taking into consideration Joe already sees less trails, grooming and trail maintanance in his area because a portion of his permit dollars is all ready subsizing these areas ? Then I look at myself who rides a couple times a season up north, but buy from my local club because I do 90%+ of my miles on local trails, some amount of my permit money makes it's way north ... but is it enough to supoport the share I ride on in the north ?

I find it's one tough cookie to share when I ask myself these questions ....

exactly Rick

that F trail who should pay for it?

Or better yet, who should pay for those sunk groomers by the Orillia club???

[Nutter]

I'm not getting into it with you nutter. You find controversy with 90% of your posts. You don't think the north should get any money, and that it is not a viable market . I disagree, and that is all I have to say.

Getting into it with me ? your the one making a very wrong assumption in the highlighted part of your statement ..... I fail to see any controversy in what have posted in this topic ? Maybe you could point it out to me ?

The only thing your right about is, I do feel it isn't a viable market when it come to pay per use ..... realy who wouldn't when looking at the flow of permit money ? But I strongly feel the north has to be subsized by the south, as those areas are very important to the over all health of the system, I just don't have the answer as to how much subsidization is fair.

[Wildman]

I'm not getting into it with you nutter. You find controversy with 90% of your posts. You don't think the north should get any money, and that it is not a viable market . I disagree, and that is all I have to say.

Getting into it with me ? your the one making a very wrong assumption in the highlighted part of your statement ..... I fail to see any controversy in what have posted in this topic ? Maybe you could point it out to me ?

The only thing your right about is, I do feel it isn't a viable market when it come to pay per use ..... realy who wouldn't when looking at the flow of permit money ? But I strongly feel the north has to be subsized by the south, as those areas are very important to the over all health of the system, I just don't have the answer as to how much subsidization is fair.

and that is all I have to say.

[Nutter]

and that is all I have to say.

Figured as much

[AkronOrange]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

[Wildman]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

he brings that out in most of us. I for 1 am glad you spend your cash in ontario, I also agree that the north is important. I understand parts of the matrix, but I don't understand all of it. I don't know the formula that the ofsc uses to defer funds to needy clubs. I have inquired, and I have a name, but I haven't followed that up. Maybe it works the best it can for the people overseeing it, I know there can be changes made, especially when there are clubs sitting on north of 100k over the summer months.

[Classic]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

We're not saying nothing should go north. We just have a hard time justifing the present amount alloted with the few permits sold. At the present time it appears that the locals don't believe they should be buying permits. And why should they when they have goomed trails to ride any way.

[Bucking Pig]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

We're not saying nothing should go north. We just have a hard time justifing the present amount alloted with the few permits sold. At the present time it appears that the locals don't believe they should be buying permits. And why should they when they have goomed trails to ride any way.

Have you not read a thing I've written? The locals are not riding on your F@#%ing trails. They are NOT HERE ANYMORE! Send as many STOP patrols as you want. You are not going to get increased sales of permits BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED TO GET JOBS ELSEWHERE. For those few who are still riding... THEY ARE NOT RIDING ON YOUR F@#%ING TRAILS!!! They are riding on the 10,000 km of roads on CROWN LAND to go fishing or to camp or whatever. It's not about $200 for them. They aren't interested in YOUR trails.

I also am done here.

[Nutter]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

Slow down Akron no one is saying that, many volunteers are working long and hard on a soultion, but many are asking themselves is taking more money from southern clubs that see the loins share of ridership and high permit sales going to help or hinder ? If those high permit selling clubs don't have trails and equip ready to roll when snow does fall as were seeing this season with southern districts, will the buyers in that area still sled and buy permits ? with a share of those very permits making it's way north.

he brings that out in most of us. I for 1 am glad you spend your cash in ontario, I also agree that the north is important. I understand parts of the matrix, but I don't understand all of it. I don't know the formula that the ofsc uses to defer funds to needy clubs. I have inquired, and I have a name, but I haven't followed that up. Maybe it works the best it can for the people overseeing it, I know there can be changes made, especially when there are clubs sitting on north of 100k over the summer months.

I figure the guy who started the name calling and making assumptions about other peoples opinions is the one bringing out something in people :poke:

Just a freindly question about your comment about clubs sitting on north of a 100K in the off season..... do you think those clubs see large groomer replacement or trail upgrade grants or don't pay for their their own without grants when they are ready for either of these ? Money has to sit somewhere if groomers are going to be replaced and trails upgraded, we can't spend every dime each season.

Wildman I have a very good understanding of the matrix, if you ever have a question feel free to ask, if someone in your local club can't help you with it. There also used to be an excelent tutorial available in the club house section of the OFSC website, it should still be accessable through OFSC online ?

[Wildman]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

We're not saying nothing should go north. We just have a hard time justifing the present amount alloted with the few permits sold. At the present time it appears that the locals don't believe they should be buying permits. And why should they when they have goomed trails to ride any way.

Have you not read a thing I've written? The locals are not riding on your F@#%ing trails. They are NOT HERE ANYMORE! Send as many STOP patrols as you want. You are not going to get increased sales of permits BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED TO GET JOBS ELSEWHERE. For those few who are still riding... THEY ARE NOT RIDING ON YOUR F@#%ING TRAILS!!! They are riding on the 10,000 km of roads on CROWN LAND to go fishing or to camp or whatever. It's not about $200 for them. They aren't interested in YOUR trails.

I also am done here.

don't go to far bucking pig, I enjoy hearing from you. There are a couple people that have a problem comprehending what they read, just put in your 2 cents and ignore them. I have ridden your area and understand exactly what you are saying. If I lived there I would have a long track and never touch a groomed trail. It's to bad about the industry in the north, I don't know how the rest of you hold in there when the population depletes to it's current level.

All the best to you in the New Year.

[cehyoopers]

if there is 10,000 kilometers of good crown land roads,why not promote that aspect.The biggest problem is the north thought sledding was going to end here in the south,and everyone was going to embrace the north.Wrong.The only time the north see's anyone from the south is when there is no riding there.Outside of the few tourists that are die hards,what is left. The fact is,sledding is and has been on the decline,and with increased pressure by the greenies it will further decline.The far north is on the cusp of a construction boom,,,,there are lots lots of projects ramping up,a lot of mines will be open over the next few years.Perhaps the thinking up there will be effected by that,perhaps not.One thing for sure,there will always be unsettled differences,them versus us versus them.It is hard to give when there is nothing in the cookie jar,,,,,and it is esp hard to give when all that is relayed back is the same old story about how we do not understand,and more needs to be done.

[RevRiders]

This Issue does not seem that hard to me to fiqure out.

It is the OFSC not a individual club...the money that is taken in for trail permits it dispersed by the mile with some sort of formula

based on how many times a trail was groomed. Last year the local club to us only ran the groomer 1 weekend, there should be some allowance

for that. Most clubs have some type of fundraising all that money stays at the club.

As far as man power is concerned we have a large group of folks that work for Conservation areas and Provincial Parks that dont work much past

the end of Oct. No excuse to have these folks at home when we sure could use them.

[Classic]

Take it to the next level; every club only supports itself. Disband the OFSC, it doesn't matter. Let's all ride the streets of Toronto. Why ride 2 hours north? Better yet: why have clubs at all? Let's just ride our own property, that way we won't have to help anyone except ourselves if a rider happens onto your property, shoot em'. Are you all aspiring to be like people from the States?

It's $200 for Christ's sake, if it can be better distributed - do it. If it costs $300 - do it. Those of us that want to ride will pay it, those of us that can't or won't will not. I'm, done here.

We're not saying nothing should go north. We just have a hard time justifing the present amount alloted with the few permits sold. At the present time it appears that the locals don't believe they should be buying permits. And why should they when they have goomed trails to ride any way.

Have you not read a thing I've written? The locals are not riding on your F@#%ing trails. They are NOT HERE ANYMORE! Send as many STOP patrols as you want. You are not going to get increased sales of permits BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED TO GET JOBS ELSEWHERE. For those few who are still riding... THEY ARE NOT RIDING ON YOUR F@#%ING TRAILS!!! They are riding on the 10,000 km of roads on CROWN LAND to go fishing or to camp or whatever. It's not about $200 for them. They aren't interested in YOUR trails.

I also am done here.

If they are not riding OUR trails , then why in hell are we sending $$ there to groom trails?

[IndySKS]

Have you not read a thing I've written? The locals are not riding on your F@#%ing trails. They are NOT HERE ANYMORE! Send as many STOP patrols as you want. You are not going to get increased sales of permits BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED TO GET JOBS ELSEWHERE. For those few who are still riding... THEY ARE NOT RIDING ON YOUR F@#%ING TRAILS!!! They are riding on the 10,000 km of roads on CROWN LAND to go fishing or to camp or whatever. It's not about $200 for them. They aren't interested in YOUR trails.

I also am done here.

Exactly and if they are riding them its because they were riding them before they were "OFSC". I'm not from the north but my son lives there and i have been riding there for years, it's a different mentality about riding there than in the south.I havent been to the Northwest part of our Province but i suspect it's even worse there. If the locals dont want the trails and dont purchase enough permits to somewhat support the system then shut them down, stop bleeding the rest of the Province dry try to keep an dead horse alive! I read a report last year or the year before from the OPP in the Duberville/Wawa area, they were out for 3 days (on a weekend) checking sleds, they checked just 80 something. Are you kidding me ? Most of the trails i was on in the last couple days were easily seeing 80 sleds / hour ! Gee where do you think the money and effort should go, where the sales are ? Where the people are ? Where the traffic is ? Where the grooming is going on ? OR some hundreds of km's of remote bush trails in butt fxxk no where that see's a handful of tourists?

[skidooer]

Interesting problem. Just throwing some ideas around, and I am having a little bit of difficulty with succinctly expressing my thoughts, so bear with me, but what if the riders were given the opportunity to choose the trails they intent to use in advance?

For example, if I wanted to plan a vacation to the far north, I could collaborate with other riders to figure out how to maximize the use of the northern trail over a shorter period of time rather than having small groups of people show up over the course of the entire season. Technology makes that part relatively easy. The OFSC can work around that scheduling to truck up the necessary equipment for that period. I have some experience with moving heavy machinery, so I know that trucking is very expensive, but not nearly as expensive as having a half-million dollar groomer just sitting around doing nothing waiting for a few people to show up.

The machinery can return back south when the vacationers head back to their local trails. When the vacationers are gone, the northern trails close. The locals do not use them anyway, apparently, so that simplifies things. There has to be some flexibility to deal with weather-related conditions, but that is just an implementation detail.

Anyway, just throwing crazy thoughts out there because crazy thoughts tend to morph into workable solutions when presented in front of enough people.

[AkronOrange]

I guess I'm not done here. I apologize for the previous rant, but I really like that I can get on my machine just north of Toronto and ride almost anywhere in Ontario, I hate when I see trails closing when, from my perspective, there should be a solution. Some trails only need to be groomed once or twice per season. Equipment, people and money seem to be available, it's coordinating all of it that seems to be the problem.

I think that OFSC needs to have more of a sense of unity, when someone needs help, help. No season will be the same, the north needs help now, help them. The integrity of the system should be the priority, the ability to get from Shining Tree to Hearst, (enter your preferences) should be paramount. Once the trails are lost and we lose our ability to "connect", that will be the beginning of the end. It could be I have it all wrong and there is a goal and this is the direction in which the OFSC wishes to head. I do believe that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", it does depend on who the "many" and "few" are.

That's the part I don't like, accepting defeat.

Ride safe.

[Wildman]

ya,funny thing, look at the number of sled trailers traveling #11 north of New Liskeard, I guess they are just towing their sleds up and down the roads and not riding them. But then of course if there isn't 80 sleds an hour going across every intersection you don't deserve any ofsc funding that your club cannot raise on there own. The ofsc was suppose to provide a province wide trail system, so they said at one time......those days are gone. We are all expected to ride in over populated areas, nose to bumper because that is where all the permit buyers reside. Then there are guys like Big Reg and Groomer Guy that work tirelessly to complete a missing loop to their northern town......and why,if there was no sled traffic why would they care? They certainly don't put many miles on,they are to busy running a snowmobile club and maintaining trails that a few people say no-one uses. And Classic should be ashamed of his words in his previous post towards the efforts of the F trail....all that coming from a volunteer himself.

How long do you think the ofsc would last if we kept all the permit money generated in the south, in the south.....you know, like not send any money to the north.

Some of you people sound extremely selfish.

One more question to ask yourself, if the north was cut out of the system, how much money would the government kick into the ofsc? you see till a couple years ago it was a connected province wide trail system. The beginning of the trouble was at Thunder Bay.

Using permit slaes is no way of determining the number of sleds using any trail,much less the northern trails.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

Interesting problem. Just throwing some ideas around, and I am having a little bit of difficulty with succinctly expressing my thoughts, so bear with me, but what if the riders were given the opportunity to choose the trails they intent to use in advance?

For example, if I wanted to plan a vacation to the far north, I could collaborate with other riders to figure out how to maximize the use of the northern trail over a shorter period of time rather than having small groups of people show up over the course of the entire season. Technology makes that part relatively easy. The OFSC can work around that scheduling to truck up the necessary equipment for that period. I have some experience with moving heavy machinery, so I know that trucking is very expensive, but not nearly as expensive as having a half-million dollar groomer just sitting around doing nothing waiting for a few people to show up.

The machinery can return back south when the vacationers head back to their local trails. When the vacationers are gone, the northern trails close. The locals do not use them anyway, apparently, so that simplifies things. There has to be some flexibility to deal with weather-related conditions, but that is just an implementation detail.

I'm just not sure what the 50+% of sledders in the south that ride locally and don't go north would do while the grooming equipment that their permit dollars paid for is in the north grooming for the few that go north. Tiddlewinks maybe?

Just to clarify, new tractor based 130 hp. groomers are approx. $200,000.00 to $225,000.00 taxes in.

[Classic]

ya,funny thing, look at the number of sled trailers traveling #11 north of New Liskeard, I guess they are just towing their sleds up and down the roads and not riding them. But then of course if there isn't 80 sleds an hour going across every intersection you don't deserve any ofsc funding that your club cannot raise on there own. The ofsc was suppose to provide a province wide trail system, so they said at one time......those days are gone. We are all expected to ride in over populated areas, nose to bumper because that is where all the permit buyers reside. Then there are guys like Big Reg and Groomer Guy that work tirelessly to complete a missing loop to their northern town......and why,if there was no sled traffic why would they care? They certainly don't put many miles on,they are to busy running a snowmobile club and maintaining trails that a few people say no-one uses. And Classic should be ashamed of his words in his previous post towards the efforts of the F trail....all that coming from a volunteer himself.

How long do you think the ofsc would last if we kept all the permit money generated in the south, in the south.....you know, like not send any money to the north.

Some of you people sound extremely selfish.

One more question to ask yourself, if the north was cut out of the system, how much money would the government kick into the ofsc? you see till a couple years ago it was a connected province wide trail system. The beginning of the trouble was at Thunder Bay.

Using permit slaes is no way of determining the number of sleds using any trail,much less the northern trails.

I'm not one bit ashamed of my comments concerning the "F" trail. A sourhern club would never spend that kind of dollara on a trail where there is only 62 permits sold. We would close the dam thing.

[Wildbill]

ya,funny thing, look at the number of sled trailers traveling #11 north of New Liskeard, I guess they are just towing their sleds up and down the roads and not riding them. But then of course if there isn't 80 sleds an hour going across every intersection you don't deserve any ofsc funding that your club cannot raise on there own. The ofsc was suppose to provide a province wide trail system, so they said at one time......those days are gone. We are all expected to ride in over populated areas, nose to bumper because that is where all the permit buyers reside. Then there are guys like Big Reg and Groomer Guy that work tirelessly to complete a missing loop to their northern town......and why,if there was no sled traffic why would they care? They certainly don't put many miles on,they are to busy running a snowmobile club and maintaining trails that a few people say no-one uses. And Classic should be ashamed of his words in his previous post towards the efforts of the F trail....all that coming from a volunteer himself.

How long do you think the ofsc would last if we kept all the permit money generated in the south, in the south.....you know, like not send any money to the north.

Some of you people sound extremely selfish.

One more question to ask yourself, if the north was cut out of the system, how much money would the government kick into the ofsc? you see till a couple years ago it was a connected province wide trail system. The beginning of the trouble was at Thunder Bay.

Using permit slaes is no way of determining the number of sleds using any trail,much less the northern trails.

Amen brother lets remember "Team OFSC" not that its perfect but working together we can make it even better.