News from the North

[Wildman]

I will start with the new hotel in New Liskeard, it is coming along. They are also building a new toyota dealer beside the hotel.

Driving through Smooth Rock Falls, I noticed the Moose Motel had the sign lit as well as the vacancy sign, there where also vehicles around the place.

I was speaking to a lady in the Longlac area that is either a member of the snowmobile club or very close to it. She mentioned that they are not sure weather the club will exist in terms of having open trails this year. They haven't had allot of support, and funds are extremely low.

The Longlac club use to hold snow and grass drags, a common weekend purse was north of 20k, it has been 2 years since they have had an event. Apparently when the soft lumber sector came to a stand still, the general population depleted drastically.

Drove through Manitouwadge, the town is looking pretty bairn.The whole region needs the logging industry to return to full production, the whole fiasco is crippling the far north.

[SlowTouringGuy]

That's good to hear about the Moose Motel in Smooth Rock. It was closed last time we were through there.

Thanks for the update !

[UsedtoSkidoo]

That's good to hear about the Moose Motel in Smooth Rock. It was closed last time we were through there.

Thanks for the update !

Sad on the snowmobile club

[AkronOrange]

Re: The Longlac situation:

The clubs and the area are suffering. I heard that they are looking for ways to cut costs. They have proposed only grooming "A" and a couple of the local loops. I recommend that people contact OFSC and encourage a redistribution of trail fund money. The A107A trail will suffer, for many of you that doesn't matter, to me it does. From my perspective here in the states, it appears that all of the money is going to areas south of North Bay, that's where the majority of the permits are sold. I am usually a supporter of the idea that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", this is a case where this is not true. If "we" begin to lose trails in the north, it won't be long before they're all lost.

I have contacted OFSC about redistributing the OFSC funds, again I encourage you to do the same. The A107A is a vital link to the Longlac region and those western parts of Ontario, what might be next; F and D trails are also having trouble. We cannot wait for the economy to come back, we don't have time to wait for that to happen, it may never happen.

Sorry for the rant. I would much prefer to spend my winters snowmobiling northern Ontario rather than golfing the Carolina's.

Hope to seeing many of you this season,

[Nutter]

Re: The Longlac situation:

The clubs and the area are suffering. I heard that they are looking for ways to cut costs. They have proposed only grooming "A" and a couple of the local loops. I recommend that people contact OFSC and encourage a redistribution of trail fund money. The A107A trail will suffer, for many of you that doesn't matter, to me it does. From my perspective here in the states, it appears that all of the money is going to areas south of North Bay, that's where the majority of the permits are sold. I am usually a supporter of the idea that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", this is a case where this is not true. If "we" begin to lose trails in the north, it won't be long before they're all lost.

I have contacted OFSC about redistributing the OFSC funds, again I encourage you to do the same. The A107A is a vital link to the Longlac region and those western parts of Ontario, what might be next; F and D trails are also having trouble. We cannot wait for the economy to come back, we don't have time to wait for that to happen, it may never happen.

Sorry for the rant. I would much prefer to spend my winters snowmobiling northern Ontario rather than golfing the Carolina's.

Hope to seeing many of you this season,

Tough call AkronOrange, if you take the money from where the majority of permits are sold and those trails suffer, will those permit buyers still buy enough permits to keep trails in both areas open ?

[rainX]

Re: The Longlac situation:

The clubs and the area are suffering. I heard that they are looking for ways to cut costs. They have proposed only grooming "A" and a couple of the local loops. I recommend that people contact OFSC and encourage a redistribution of trail fund money. The A107A trail will suffer, for many of you that doesn't matter, to me it does. From my perspective here in the states, it appears that all of the money is going to areas south of North Bay, that's where the majority of the permits are sold. I am usually a supporter of the idea that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", this is a case where this is not true. If "we" begin to lose trails in the north, it won't be long before they're all lost.

I have contacted OFSC about redistributing the OFSC funds, again I encourage you to do the same. The A107A is a vital link to the Longlac region and those western parts of Ontario, what might be next; F and D trails are also having trouble. We cannot wait for the economy to come back, we don't have time to wait for that to happen, it may never happen.

Sorry for the rant. I would much prefer to spend my winters snowmobiling northern Ontario rather than golfing the Carolina's.

Hope to seeing many of you this season,

Condsider the A107A trail - it is solely up to the club and District 16 to decide whether they have the resources to maintain the trail (or any other trail for that matter). I too am saddened by the closure of A107A, but it was a decision by the club and or District (nothing to do with the "OFSC" office), and I have to respect that. My suggestion: call the club or the District.

There is far more to the D16 story. Again, call the clubs and or the District. I cannot comment on whether they will offer the complete picture of business operations for this season, it is not my business.

[AkronOrange]

Re: The Longlac situation:

The clubs and the area are suffering. I heard that they are looking for ways to cut costs. They have proposed only grooming "A" and a couple of the local loops. I recommend that people contact OFSC and encourage a redistribution of trail fund money. The A107A trail will suffer, for many of you that doesn't matter, to me it does. From my perspective here in the states, it appears that all of the money is going to areas south of North Bay, that's where the majority of the permits are sold. I am usually a supporter of the idea that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", this is a case where this is not true. If "we" begin to lose trails in the north, it won't be long before they're all lost.

I have contacted OFSC about redistributing the OFSC funds, again I encourage you to do the same. The A107A is a vital link to the Longlac region and those western parts of Ontario, what might be next; F and D trails are also having trouble. We cannot wait for the economy to come back, we don't have time to wait for that to happen, it may never happen.

Sorry for the rant. I would much prefer to spend my winters snowmobiling northern Ontario rather than golfing the Carolina's.

Hope to seeing many of you this season,

Condsider the A107A trail - it is solely up to the club and District 16 to decide whether they have the resources to maintain the trail (or any other trail for that matter). I too am saddened by the closure of A107A, but it was a decision by the club and or District (nothing to do with the "OFSC" office), and I have to respect that. My suggestion: call the club or the District.

There is far more to the D16 story. Again, call the clubs and or the District. I cannot comment on whether they will offer the complete picture of business operations for this season, it is not my business.

I have contacted both District 16 and OFSC every year for the past 3 years about the situation there. You're right, it is the responsibility of the club to maintain their portion of their trail system. Let me first say that I'm writing from the States and have not done research about who has how many people and how many kilometers of trails. I have however, ridden through 11 of the 17 districts in Ontario and see the importance of keeping all of the trails open. I also have seen that the districts with the people seem to have the money and obviously, the volunteers to help. District 16 is not so fortunate, I think they sold fewer than 50 permits last year and have 2 people doing all of the grooming.

I'm not suggesting that OFSC divide trail fund money on a per mile basis, I am only suggesting that they find another way to redistribute the trail fund money. It may seem unfair to those in the Muskoka's that some of their permit sales dollars are not being used in their respective areas, but there is excess there. This is a trail system, it is the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. Ontario is the best place in the world for trail riding, like the sign coming into Cochrane says. I am disappointed when I see an indication that it might come to an end.

I see it here in New York, lack of funds by a club results in trail closure. Like I said, I would rather spend my winters (and my money) in northern Ontario. The people are great, you can't just go and buy that kind of an experience.

[Canuck]

Akron,

We were also planning to head up to Longlac this year (one of the area lodges provided an oc.com Silent Auction prize - thank you Klotz Lake Camp ).

I hope they have the opportunity to open this year for sledding.

There appears to be a pattern re: northern trails 'closing'.

Those of you who understand the matrix - let's hope it's addressed.

I suspect that if many more far north trails are closed, permit sales will decline.

[Wildbill]

Akron,

We were also planning to head up to Longlac this year (one of the area lodges provided an oc.com Silent Auction prize - thank you Klotz Lake Camp ).

I hope they have the opportunity to open this year for sledding.

There appears to be a pattern re: northern trails 'closing'.

Those of you who understand the matrix - let's hope it's addressed.

I suspect that if many more far north trails are closed, permit sales will decline.

The truth is that there is just simply more money needed we have lost 45,000 permits sold as well permit price compared to the cost of fuel is actually cheaper than it has been for 20 years. Just less people with disposable income.

[AkronOrange]

Akron,

We were also planning to head up to Longlac this year (one of the area lodges provided an oc.com Silent Auction prize - thank you Klotz Lake Camp ).

I hope they have the opportunity to open this year for sledding.

There appears to be a pattern re: northern trails 'closing'.

Those of you who understand the matrix - let's hope it's addressed.

I suspect that if many more far north trails are closed, permit sales will decline.

The truth is that there is just simply more money needed we have lost 45,000 permits sold as well permit price compared to the cost of fuel is actually cheaper than it has been for 20 years. Just less people with disposable income.

Wildbill hit the nail on the head; less disposable income. People are looking for ways to save money, me included. It's a time for everyone to pull together, tighten up. OFSC is not different. It's time to help those areas that need help, don't give us all a reason to stay closer to home, give us a reason to continue spending that disposable income the way we would like.

Once again, I encourage everyone to contact somebody; whether it be the district or the OFSC, but convey your message that you want all Ontario trails to remain open. We can make a difference, I know that people listen. Our group has made a difference in the past. There are good people within the OFSC organization. Each and everytime I have contacted them, I get a response - they do listen. If you need contact information for OFSC or District 15 or District 16, send me a PM.

Canuck - We hope to be riding through there the last week of February, let me know your plans.

[Classic]

Akron,

We were also planning to head up to Longlac this year (one of the area lodges provided an oc.com Silent Auction prize - thank you Klotz Lake Camp ).

I hope they have the opportunity to open this year for sledding.

There appears to be a pattern re: northern trails 'closing'.

Those of you who understand the matrix - let's hope it's addressed.

I suspect that if many more far north trails are closed, permit sales will decline.

The truth is that there is just simply more money needed we have lost 45,000 permits sold as well permit price compared to the cost of fuel is actually cheaper than it has been for 20 years. Just less people with disposable income.

Wildbill hit the nail on the head; less disposable income. People are looking for ways to save money, me included. It's a time for everyone to pull together, tighten up. OFSC is not different. It's time to help those areas that need help, don't give us all a reason to stay closer to home, give us a reason to continue spending that disposable income the way we would like.

Once again, I encourage everyone to contact somebody; whether it be the district or the OFSC, but convey your message that you want all Ontario trails to remain open. We can make a difference, I know that people listen. Our group has made a difference in the past. There are good people within the OFSC organization. Each and everytime I have contacted them, I get a response - they do listen. If you need contact information for OFSC or District 15 or District 16, send me a PM.

Canuck - We hope to be riding through there the last week of February, let me know your plans.

What we really need in the north is for every body who rides a trail to buy a permit. The districts up there receive far more money from thr trail fund than they do selling permits. If they can't afford the trails then maybe some need to close. This problem has been around for years.

[Wildbill]

Akron,

We were also planning to head up to Longlac this year (one of the area lodges provided an oc.com Silent Auction prize - thank you Klotz Lake Camp ).

I hope they have the opportunity to open this year for sledding.

There appears to be a pattern re: northern trails 'closing'.

Those of you who understand the matrix - let's hope it's addressed.

I suspect that if many more far north trails are closed, permit sales will decline.

The truth is that there is just simply more money needed we have lost 45,000 permits sold as well permit price compared to the cost of fuel is actually cheaper than it has been for 20 years. Just less people with disposable income.

Wildbill hit the nail on the head; less disposable income. People are looking for ways to save money, me included. It's a time for everyone to pull together, tighten up. OFSC is not different. It's time to help those areas that need help, don't give us all a reason to stay closer to home, give us a reason to continue spending that disposable income the way we would like.

Once again, I encourage everyone to contact somebody; whether it be the district or the OFSC, but convey your message that you want all Ontario trails to remain open. We can make a difference, I know that people listen. Our group has made a difference in the past. There are good people within the OFSC organization. Each and everytime I have contacted them, I get a response - they do listen. If you need contact information for OFSC or District 15 or District 16, send me a PM.

Canuck - We hope to be riding through there the last week of February, let me know your plans.

What we really need in the north is for every body who rides a trail to buy a permit. The districts up there receive far more money from thr trail fund than they do selling permits. If they can't afford the trails then maybe some need to close. This problem has been around for years.

True fact all who ride on trails NEED A PERMIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this would solve many issues

[AkronOrange]

I agree. Everyone who rides should have a permit. That is not the issue. There is a percentage in every district that do not buy permits, you cannot change that. It is a true statement that if you want a certain trail to remain open and safe you need to let OFSC know. They want the trails open and safe for everyone. If you have ridden, or tried to ride, A107A, F, or D over the past 3 years, you know what I mean. Two years ago we could not have ridden further west than Marathon on D trail because the trails were not open, even now, that I know of, you can't ride to district 17. We all have read about the problems with F trail last year. Thankfully, looks like they are getting it together this year. I hate to sound like a typical American, but money does solve many of these problems.

[Classic]

I agree. Everyone who rides should have a permit. That is not the issue. There is a percentage in every district that do not buy permits, you cannot change that. It is a true statement that if you want a certain trail to remain open and safe you need to let OFSC know. They want the trails open and safe for everyone. If you have ridden, or tried to ride, A107A, F, or D over the past 3 years, you know what I mean. Two years ago we could not have ridden further west than Marathon on D trail because the trails were not open, even now, that I know of, you can't ride to district 17. We all have read about the problems with F trail last year. Thankfully, looks like they are getting it together this year. I hate to sound like a typical American, but money does solve many of these problems.

You are correct. There is a SMALL percentage not buying in other districts but when you don't have Trail Patrol or STOP on the trails, the percentage goes a lot higher. And that what is happening in the north. They feel permits are just for tourists, but still want good trails to ride. Sorry folks, it doesn't work that way.

[revrnd]

Drove through Manitouwadge, the town is looking pretty bairn.The whole region needs the logging industry to return to full production, the whole fiasco is crippling the far north.

I think the situation w/ Manitouwadge is more related to the 2 mines closing there. I think the reserves were exhausted, so they closed. When we rode in 2 winters ago, we passed 2 large log dumps. By the look of the logs, they had been there for a long time (past sawing IMO).

A friend lived there a couple of years & was bussed down to 1 of the mines in Hemlo. I'm not sure how many of the Hemlo mines are operating.

[Bucking Pig]

I agree. Everyone who rides should have a permit. That is not the issue. There is a percentage in every district that do not buy permits, you cannot change that. It is a true statement that if you want a certain trail to remain open and safe you need to let OFSC know. They want the trails open and safe for everyone. If you have ridden, or tried to ride, A107A, F, or D over the past 3 years, you know what I mean. Two years ago we could not have ridden further west than Marathon on D trail because the trails were not open, even now, that I know of, you can't ride to district 17. We all have read about the problems with F trail last year. Thankfully, looks like they are getting it together this year. I hate to sound like a typical American, but money does solve many of these problems.

You are correct. There is a SMALL percentage not buying in other districts but when you don't have Trail Patrol or STOP on the trails, the percentage goes a lot higher. And that what is happening in the north. They feel permits are just for tourists, but still want good trails to ride. Sorry folks, it doesn't work that way.

Can't buy a permit if you don't have a job. YOU just don't get it! YOUR economy may have tanked last year, OURS tanked three or four years ago. Go ahead! Have a look along Hwy 11 and Hwy 17 from North Bay to Thunder Bay. I bet you can count the the number of open mills and mines on one hand. Even the ones open are on a day by day basis. People have layoff notices hanging over their heads on a pretty much permanent basis. People in the north just don't have the extra money to spend on a recreational pursuit like snowmobiling. The few working who do have the income certainly cannot support the clubs all by ourselves. Frankly, the whole TOP trail system in this area is set up for touring, not so much for local riding. The small amount of local riding we can do from here doesn't justify the cost for many. Why shouldn't the OFSC pony up more? Personally, I think the tourist business' here should be helping more. They are the benificiary of the touring snowmobilers. But, then they claim they're hurting too.

Most people in the north are NOT scofflaw, renegades trying to rip off clubs by not buying permits. The reason permit sales are low or nil here is because there's not enough people with jobs to afford them.

BP

[Fred Quimby]

These clubs need to be more proactive in finding financial resources. Plain and simple. As with many clubs all over, you can not sit back and wait for the OFSC mailbag of cash to arrive. The towns, counties and local business need to support the clubs with resources and finances. These are tough times. There is less disposable incomes, but you can't be reactive. You have to be proactive. If tourism is what brings in money, than you have to go down that avenue and market that angle. The OFSC alone can not support every small club with 100 percent of the finances needed. You need to solicit funds, raise money and find ways to generate cash.

As far as the locals not buying permits because there is no enforcement. Perhaps the MTO needs to look at ways to automatically issue you a permit. You have to buy a valiudation sticker ofr your sled and your car. Perhaps they could link an account for a snowmobile to an automobile and when you renew your val tag for your car and sled, then you automatically have to buy a permit for the trail. Problem with that is..what if you operate your sled solely on private land? Maybe you would have to check off a box that states that use as a disclaimer? If caught on an OFSC trail after swearing to non use on a provincial trail, the fines would be hefty.

It would take a revamping. If clubs are going to survive. Then a re vamping is in order.

[revrnd]

These clubs need to be more proactive in finding financial resources. Plain and simple. As with many clubs all over, you can not sit back and wait for the OFSC mailbag of cash to arrive. The towns, counties and local business need to support the clubs with resources and finances. These are tough times. There is less disposable incomes, but you can't be reactive. You have to be proactive. If tourism is what brings in money, than you have to go down that avenue and market that angle. The OFSC alone can not support every small club with 100 percent of the finances needed. You need to solicit funds, raise money and find ways to generate cash.

As far as the locals not buying permits because there is no enforcement. Perhaps the MTO needs to look at ways to automatically issue you a permit. You have to buy a valiudation sticker ofr your sled and your car. Perhaps they could link an account for a snowmobile to an automobile and when you renew your val tag for your car and sled, then you automatically have to buy a permit for the trail. Problem with that is..what if you operate your sled solely on private land? Maybe you would have to check off a box that states that use as a disclaimer? If caught on an OFSC trail after swearing to non use on a provincial trail, the fines would be hefty.

It would take a revamping. If clubs are going to survive. Then a re vamping is in order.

Two points, why doesn't Dist' 16 hit up the tourist association to help defray costs for an appearance @ the T.O. sled show? Out of sight out of mind to most sledders.

I think Manitoba has their trail permit/val' sticker linked. Mind you I think the permit cost is a lot lower than Ontario's.

[Bucking Pig]

Club? What club? Our club folded because there were; a) Not enough people with jobs to afford to buy a permit ( No Job = Move away to somewhere there is job = Not enough people left to run the clubs. © Two years of no trails due to low snow.

Also, having MTO force folks to buy a permit won't work because there are too many people here who have no intention of ever using OFSC trails. Trappers, hunters, fishermen, commercial users, private land, Crown Land users. I have used my two snowmobiles for the past two years without ever once riding on an OFSC trail (Partially because there wern't any for the last two years around here).

I'll say it again! We are not all bandits, "stealing" your trails. Yhere are LOTS of legitimate reasons for people not buying permits for their snowmobiles in this part of the world. Who in their right mind would buy a $250 permit to put on a Bravo that is only used for fishing or riding a bush road out to camp?

[Nutter]

Club? What club? Our club folded because there were; a) Not enough people with jobs to afford to buy a permit ( No Job = Move away to somewhere there is job = Not enough people left to run the clubs. © Two years of no trails due to low snow.

Also, having MTO force folks to buy a permit won't work because there are too many people here who have no intention of ever using OFSC trails. Trappers, hunters, fishermen, commercial users, private land, Crown Land users. I have used my two snowmobiles for the past two years without ever once riding on an OFSC trail (Partially because there wern't any for the last two years around here).

I'll say it again! We are not all bandits, "stealing" your trails. Yhere are LOTS of legitimate reasons for people not buying permits for their snowmobiles in this part of the world. Who in their right mind would buy a $250 permit to put on a Bravo that is only used for fishing or riding a bush road out to camp?

Good post, but it brings up the almost unanswerable ever asked question of .... how much money should get deferred from the provincial permit pot to areas with these issues ? Permit sale #'s are the only indication of ridership #'s and a huge part of the funding distribution formula, and rightly so since permit buyers are the ones paying for the trails to be groomed province wide.

[Classic]

Club? What club? Our club folded because there were; a) Not enough people with jobs to afford to buy a permit ( No Job = Move away to somewhere there is job = Not enough people left to run the clubs. © Two years of no trails due to low snow.

Also, having MTO force folks to buy a permit won't work because there are too many people here who have no intention of ever using OFSC trails. Trappers, hunters, fishermen, commercial users, private land, Crown Land users. I have used my two snowmobiles for the past two years without ever once riding on an OFSC trail (Partially because there wern't any for the last two years around here).

I'll say it again! We are not all bandits, "stealing" your trails. Yhere are LOTS of legitimate reasons for people not buying permits for their snowmobiles in this part of the world. Who in their right mind would buy a $250 permit to put on a Bravo that is only used for fishing or riding a bush road out to camp?

If people can't afford to buy permits, that is one thing. But tell me why the clubs are still grooming as many hours as ever. Its because people are still riding. Without a permit. If you sell half the permits you did 10 years ago, then you groom half as much. You can't have it both ways. We just dumped thousands of dollars into the infamous "F" trail. They sold 62 permits so far. Is that justifiable? I don't think so.

Good post, but it brings up the almost unanswerable ever asked question of .... how much money should get deferred from the provincial permit pot to areas with these issues ? Permit sale #'s are the only indication of ridership #'s and a huge part of the funding distribution formula, and rightly so since permit buyers are the ones paying for the trails to be groomed province wide.

[skidooer]

Can't buy a permit if you don't have a job. YOU just don't get it!

Even if you ignore snowmobile ownership costs, it is not too difficult to burn $200 worth of fuel in a single day's ride. How can someone afford to use their snowmobile at all if a permit is beyond their budget?

[Wildman]

If people can't afford to buy permits, that is one thing. But tell me why the clubs are still grooming as many hours as ever. Its because people are still riding. Without a permit. If you sell half the permits you did 10 years ago, then you groom half as much. You can't have it both ways. We just dumped thousands of dollars into the infamous "F" trail. They sold 62 permits so far. Is that justifiable? I don't think so.

Good post, but it brings up the almost unanswerable ever asked question of .... how much money should get deferred from the provincial permit pot to areas with these issues ? Permit sale #'s are the only indication of ridership #'s and a huge part of the funding distribution formula, and rightly so since permit buyers are the ones paying for the trails to be groomed province wide.

you 2 clowns don't get it and never will, you are both short sighted and narrow minded. It is a good thing nether of you sit at the head table of the ofsc. The ofsc has a far bigger area than district 9 and Port Perry.

[Bucking Pig]

You're not getting it. They're not saving $200, or $250. They have LEFT TOWN TO LOOK FOR WORK!!!

The other folks I mention have never bought a permit so don't really care if there is a club or not. There is always this accusation that we in the North are freeloading on YOUR trails because there are more sleds than permits sold here. Right now, the sleds are either parked, moved away with their owners or DON'T USE OFSC TRAILS!

As far as judging use or need by local permit sales, no one could ever justfy our trails by that measuring stick. Most trails in D 16 are there for the use and enjoyment of touring snowmobilers. How many times can you run the same couple of trails and not get bored? The whole TOP system is directed at touring snowmobilers. Our club (Nipigon Bay Snowmobile Club) had great dreams of loop trails that locals could (and would have) have some fun day trips on. At the end, it was all they could do to try to get the TOP trails open.

[Nutter]

Good post, but it brings up the almost unanswerable ever asked question of .... how much money should get deferred from the provincial permit pot to areas with these issues ? Permit sale #'s are the only indication of ridership #'s and a huge part of the funding distribution formula, and rightly so since permit buyers are the ones paying for the trails to be groomed province wide.

you 2 clowns don't get it and never will, you are both short sighted and narrow minded. It is a good thing nether of you sit at the head table of the ofsc. The ofsc has a far bigger area than district 9 and Port Perry.

Thanks for the clown comment, maybe you could explain what isn't "gotten" what's "narrow minded" in my post ?

You're not getting it. They're not saving $200, or $250. They have LEFT TOWN TO LOOK FOR WORK!!!

The other folks I mention have never bought a permit so don't really care if there is a club or not. There is always this accusation that we in the North are freeloading on YOUR trails because there are more sleds than permits sold here. Right now, the sleds are either parked, moved away with their owners or DON'T USE OFSC TRAILS!

As far as judging use or need by local permit sales, no one could ever justfy our trails by that measuring stick. Most trails in D 16 are there for the use and enjoyment of touring snowmobilers. How many times can you run the same couple of trails and not get bored? The whole TOP system is directed at touring snowmobilers. Our club (Nipigon Bay Snowmobile Club) had great dreams of loop trails that locals could (and would have) have some fun day trips on. At the end, it was all they could do to try to get the TOP trails open.

I wasn't only taking local riders into account in my post, just stating that the big unanswered question has always been how to quantify ridership to determine funding for areas that sell less permits then they have km of trail, no one has come up with a viable solution to date, and until someone does it's going to be the same story north vs's south in provincial funding.