Giddy UP Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I wonder if its a good idea to at least inform the hotels in the area as to the situation. They may have no idea what's happening and like revkev suggested with their industry being very sensitive they may have a VERY strong voice to help resolve this....sled dealers too... I know that the Quality Inn folks have been on the phone today with the OFSC and have been trying to contact the PSSD office - nobody is taking their calls either! They stand to lose alot of $$$ this weekend just from our ride....then there is the PSSD Poker Ride NEXT also being held at the Quality Inn....believe me....they have a ton to lose if the clubs dont change their minds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reved Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 ... I think that they owe us an explanation as to what is going on here. Once again, Mike Farr at the OFSC says that the CLUBS make the decision on whether to open or close a trail...and whether or not to groom it. Don't be to hard on these people, as I see it, one of their own has been charged and it can happen to them too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Isn't it interesting how quick the OFSC is to dismiss their involvement and responsibility here? They have no problem collecting dollars for "administrative support" for the clubs and spending untold amounts on advertising to "go snowmobiling". They even promote to "be a volunteer!" So, if this does not require the diplomatic power of the OFSC to deal with the MOL when their own volunteers are being prosecuted, what exactly does their administrative roll do? The OFSC has the presence to represent these volunteers & stand with them. They are the ones who are responsible for delivering the education of policy & standard to all volunteers. But none of this info is available through their website. Did they just pass on complex policy books to the clubs & say figure it out? OFSC has full time staff that deal with red tape every day. How is the average person who has a full time job, family etc going to understand the complexity of the requirements that the MOL is looking to enforce just so they can help out their community in the winter months. Just seems like the OFSC is raising their hands in the air and saying "Not our problem! Go deal with the clubs!" I am not impressed with that attitude. I would prefer to see more concern, support, understanding & advocacy for the volunteers. By the way, I don't buy the surprised act. They were well aware of the clubs situation for quite sometime. They should have been all over this and never allowed their volunteers to have to deal with this kind of stress & pressure. I would have shut the whole thing down too if I was being treated like a criminal after committing my time, money & energy for years supporting the club. What kind of association turns their back on these people & instead directs calls & complaints to the very people who stand to loose their freedom over some piece of paper not being filled out or some booklet not being on display for example. There is a lot more to the story here folks. I hope that everyone realizes that this is not only about snowmobiling this weekend, but also about someone’s freedom, reputation & lively hood. Keep that in mind when you call PSSD as per Mike Farr. He is not the one facing over 100,000 in fines & 4 years in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcsldr Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 While I dont have an update from our club president, both Dunahmic and Cramadog operate independently from the PSSD. I assume we will be open but will provide more info when I hear it. Part of this MOL investigation has to do with compromising safety. Clubs receive alot of pressure from both surrounding businesses as well as sledders to get trails opened. Although its up to the individual club whether or not they feel its safe enough to commence grooming, the pressure too open can impact decision making. Most clubs receive considerable backlash from sledders complaining why a certain section of trail or trail is not yet groomed or opened. When we tell them that particular section is not safe enough they almost always doubt us and answer back with....why is your neighbouring club open then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 While I dont have an update from our club president, both Dunahmic and Cramadog operate independently from the PSSD. I assume we will be open but will provide more info when I hear it. Part of this MOL investigation has to do with compromising safety. Clubs receive alot of pressure from both surrounding businesses as well as sledders to get trails opened. Although its up to the individual club whether or not they feel its safe enough to commence grooming, the pressure to open does impact decision making. Most clubs receive considerable backlash from sledders complaining why a certain section of trail or trail is not yet groomed or opened. When we tell them that particular section is not safe enough they almost always doubt us and answer back with....why is your neighbouring club open then? U guys have been beat up from all sides for sure. Maybe it is time for things to change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Isn't it interesting how quick the OFSC is to dismiss their involvement and responsibility here?They have no problem collecting dollars for "administrative support" for the clubs and spending untold amounts on advertising to "go snowmobiling". They even promote to "be a volunteer!" So, if this does not require the diplomatic power of the OFSC to deal with the MOL when their own volunteers are being prosecuted, what exactly does their administrative roll do? The OFSC has the presence to represent these volunteers & stand with them. They are the ones who are responsible for delivering the education of policy & standard to all volunteers. But none of this info is available through their website. Did they just pass on complex policy books to the clubs & say figure it out? OFSC has full time staff that deal with red tape every day. How is the average person who has a full time job, family etc going to understand the complexity of the requirements that the MOL is looking to enforce just so they can help out their community in the winter months. Just seems like the OFSC is raising their hands in the air and saying "Not our problem! Go deal with the clubs!" I am not impressed with that attitude. I would prefer to see more concern, support, understanding & advocacy for the volunteers. By the way, I don't buy the surprised act. They were well aware of the clubs situation for quite sometime. They should have been all over this and never allowed their volunteers to have to deal with this kind of stress & pressure. I would have shut the whole thing down too if I was being treated like a criminal after committing my time, money & energy for years supporting the club. What kind of association turns their back on these people & instead directs calls & complaints to the very people who stand to loose their freedom over some piece of paper not being filled out or some booklet not being on display for example. There is a lot more to the story here folks. I hope that everyone realizes that this is not only about snowmobiling this weekend, but also about someone’s freedom, reputation & lively hood. Keep that in mind when you call PSSD as per Mike Farr. He is not the one facing over 100,000 in fines & 4 years in prison. And they are the ones, presumably, with the PR expertise and the best government connections. It behooves them to issue a Press Release - a public announcement explaining what has happened and why. And why it is important to have taken the action they have taken etc. etc. The absolutely need to do that to take the heat off the club and garner public support for the action and to draw attention to how fragile the whole volunteer based system is. At the same time they should be (and let's hope they are) pulling every government string they can pull. The Minister of Tourism and the Minister of Finance included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonut Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 anyone up for a lynching in Barrie this evening? The OFSC should be all over this like white on rice. What do they get paid for? Sit around, dream up goofy self promotion material,put on sled shows and line their own pockets with our and club monies? If this all goes south, I think its time to rethink just what the OFSC is and does and just maybe, scrap it and start over with people who remember what it is they are supposed to be doing for OUR money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I remember going snowmobiling as fun and adventerous and a great way to meet people spend a day outdoors and spend some of my hard earned dollars at local business, if the ofsc is not going to jump on this and defend our sport, or even more importantly the people and there families that livlihoods are at risk, then i suggest that new leadership is needed, one that won't let us get pushed around and spend our permit money where it is needed. ONTARIO FEDERATION OF SNOWMOBILE CLUBS The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is dedicated to providing strong leadership and support to member clubs and volunteers, to establishing and maintaining quality snowmobile trails which are used in a safe and environmentally responsible manner, and to furthering the enjoyment of organized snowmobiling :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamforlife Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 In my mind I think the OFSC needs to step in here. They need to support these folks. If happens here it can happen to other clubs. They will need to initiate more safety training and help the clubs enforce it. Everyone needs to calm down and not focus on the Club Executives but invloving the OFSC to defuse this. This is there bread and butter as well and if we don't have volunteers we have nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I remember going snowmobiling as fun and adventerous and a great way to meet people spend a day outdoors and spend some of my hard earned dollars at local business, if the ofsc is not going to jump on this and defend our sport, or even more importantly the people and there families that livlihoods are at risk, then i suggest that new leadership is needed, one that won't let us get pushed around and spend our permit money where it is needed.ONTARIO FEDERATION OF SNOWMOBILE CLUBS The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is dedicated to providing strong leadership and support to member clubs and volunteers, to establishing and maintaining quality snowmobile trails which are used in a safe and environmentally responsible manner, and to furthering the enjoyment of organized snowmobiling :poke: Absolutley!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiDooStu Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Well said. And, they have better be providing the money to defend these volunteers in court. It is absolutely their responsibility to do everything they can to support these volunteers! It will interesting to hear the real details from this. For example, has the OFSC been dealing with the MOL in the weeks/months previous to this? Is this something they could have prepared the PSSD for? Or, was the MOL just dealing with the PSSD? Of course that begs the question if the PSSD had contacted the OFSC regarding the matter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 The OFSC claims that they have hired a lawyer. The insurance policy provides for a legal defence. I would assume that the lawyer is experienced in dealing with cases like these with the MOL. The fact that they have already done this shows that they were well aware of the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldslowsledder Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 A sad and disturbing story. Thanks for the info guys, had no idea what was going on till I read it here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySKS Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I remember going snowmobiling as fun and adventerous and a great way to meet people spend a day outdoors and spend some of my hard earned dollars at local business, if the ofsc is not going to jump on this and defend our sport, or even more importantly the people and there families that livlihoods are at risk, then i suggest that new leadership is needed, one that won't let us get pushed around and spend our permit money where it is needed.ONTARIO FEDERATION OF SNOWMOBILE CLUBS The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is dedicated to providing strong leadership and support to member clubs and volunteers, to establishing and maintaining quality snowmobile trails which are used in a safe and environmentally responsible manner, and to furthering the enjoyment of organized snowmobiling :poke: PEOPLE we need to just relax a little bit here ! The PSSD and it's Clubs are going through a very traumatic experience in dealing with the MOL and they need our support not our bad mouthing of the Clubs or the OFSC at this time, know the facts before opening your mouth.....please. Now I'm not in the PSSD or the OFSC office but I can tell you no one has thrown up their arms and said it's not my problem and went and buried their heads in the snow. Give them time to get things sorted out. I really don't believe that closing the trails was knee jerk reaction or a protest....maybe they had no choice until some things get sorted out. Having dealt with the MOL before I can tell you they wield a very nasty sword and don't do things during the off season or when things are convenient for you. Maybe as someone said this is a turning point for many things and more changes are likely to come. Anyone involved in a Club in the last year knew that the death of a D10 groomer operator was just the beginning of change. Please lets just keep our heads here for a couple days and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy Rider Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I remember going snowmobiling as fun and adventerous and a great way to meet people spend a day outdoors and spend some of my hard earned dollars at local business, if the ofsc is not going to jump on this and defend our sport, or even more importantly the people and there families that livlihoods are at risk, then i suggest that new leadership is needed, one that won't let us get pushed around and spend our permit money where it is needed.ONTARIO FEDERATION OF SNOWMOBILE CLUBS The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is dedicated to providing strong leadership and support to member clubs and volunteers, to establishing and maintaining quality snowmobile trails which are used in a safe and environmentally responsible manner, and to furthering the enjoyment of organized snowmobiling :poke: PEOPLE we need to just relax a little bit here ! The PSSD and it's Clubs are going through a very traumatic experience in dealing with the MOL and they need our support not our bad mouthing of the Clubs or the OFSC at this time, know the facts before opening your mouth.....please. Now I'm not in the PSSD or the OFSC office but I can tell you no one has thrown up their arms and said it's not my problem and went and buried their heads in the snow. Give them time to get things sorted out. I really don't believe that closing the trails was knee jerk reaction or a protest....maybe they had no choice until some things get sorted out. Having dealt with the MOL before I can tell you they wield a very nasty sword and don't do things during the off season or when things are convenient for you. Maybe as someone said this is a turning point for many things and more changes are likely to come. Anyone involved in a Club in the last year knew that the death of a D10 groomer operator was just the beginning of change. Please lets just keep our heads here for a couple days and see what happens. Good advice Dave. We knew something like this was going to happen, just didn't know when or what the circumstances would be..... It almost happened down here in District 5 last fall..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I remember going snowmobiling as fun and adventerous and a great way to meet people spend a day outdoors and spend some of my hard earned dollars at local business, if the ofsc is not going to jump on this and defend our sport, or even more importantly the people and there families that livlihoods are at risk, then i suggest that new leadership is needed, one that won't let us get pushed around and spend our permit money where it is needed.ONTARIO FEDERATION OF SNOWMOBILE CLUBS The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is dedicated to providing strong leadership and support to member clubs and volunteers, to establishing and maintaining quality snowmobile trails which are used in a safe and environmentally responsible manner, and to furthering the enjoyment of organized snowmobiling :poke: PEOPLE we need to just relax a little bit here ! The PSSD and it's Clubs are going through a very traumatic experience in dealing with the MOL and they need our support not our bad mouthing of the Clubs or the OFSC at this time, know the facts before opening your mouth.....please. Now I'm not in the PSSD or the OFSC office but I can tell you no one has thrown up their arms and said it's not my problem and went and buried their heads in the snow. Give them time to get things sorted out. I really don't believe that closing the trails was knee jerk reaction or a protest....maybe they had no choice until some things get sorted out. Having dealt with the MOL before I can tell you they wield a very nasty sword and don't do things during the off season or when things are convenient for you. Maybe as someone said this is a turning point for many things and more changes are likely to come. Anyone involved in a Club in the last year knew that the death of a D10 groomer operator was just the beginning of change. Please lets just keep our heads here for a couple days and see what happens. Normally, I would support the wait & see approach. Mike Farr said himself that the District acted on its own & that they were not forced to take this action in any way. He said that it was their choice to shut down & that the OFSC wont do anything unless the PSSD asks them for assistance. I'm not making this up! I do believe that they were left no choice but to shut down. They may not have been forced, but they didn't have any better options. Aside from that, if you were facing prison & fines, would you want the people you have commited your volunteer efforts for sit back, wait & see? I would want to know that I had real support. Not just the "sorry to hear about your problem" kind of support, but the ready to take action & solve the problem kind of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giddy UP Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I remember going snowmobiling as fun and adventerous and a great way to meet people spend a day outdoors and spend some of my hard earned dollars at local business, if the ofsc is not going to jump on this and defend our sport, or even more importantly the people and there families that livlihoods are at risk, then i suggest that new leadership is needed, one that won't let us get pushed around and spend our permit money where it is needed.ONTARIO FEDERATION OF SNOWMOBILE CLUBS The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is dedicated to providing strong leadership and support to member clubs and volunteers, to establishing and maintaining quality snowmobile trails which are used in a safe and environmentally responsible manner, and to furthering the enjoyment of organized snowmobiling :poke: PEOPLE we need to just relax a little bit here ! The PSSD and it's Clubs are going through a very traumatic experience in dealing with the MOL and they need our support not our bad mouthing of the Clubs or the OFSC at this time, know the facts before opening your mouth.....please. Now I'm not in the PSSD or the OFSC office but I can tell you no one has thrown up their arms and said it's not my problem and went and buried their heads in the snow. Give them time to get things sorted out. I really don't believe that closing the trails was knee jerk reaction or a protest....maybe they had no choice until some things get sorted out. Having dealt with the MOL before I can tell you they wield a very nasty sword and don't do things during the off season or when things are convenient for you. Maybe as someone said this is a turning point for many things and more changes are likely to come. Anyone involved in a Club in the last year knew that the death of a D10 groomer operator was just the beginning of change. Please lets just keep our heads here for a couple days and see what happens. Normally, I would support the wait & see approach. Mike Farr said himself that the District acted on its own & that they were not forced to take this action in any way. He said that it was their choice to shut down & that the OFSC wont do anything unless the PSSD asks them for assistance. I'm not making this up! I do believe that they were left no choice but to shut down. They may not have been forced, but they didn't have any better options. Aside from that, if you were facing prison & fines, would you want the people you have commited your volunteer efforts for sit back, wait & see? I would want to know that I had real support. Not just the "sorry to hear about your problem" kind of support, but the ready to take action & solve the problem kind of support. He told me the exact same thing Trax....I just wish that the PSSD would post something so that we know exactly what their position is so that we might be able to understand it instead of speculate on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I hear ya Giddy. Maybe they are afraid that if they say the wrong thing, they will comprimise their position or defence of the allegations. Crazy thing is, any 2bit lawyer with any experience with the MOL will have these charges vaporized the minute they get to court. No fair minded judge will see the point in pursuing the matter. In the mean time, our friends, our economy & our sport will pay a price that cannot be recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveH Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 The man who lost his life was a paid employee, and if the MOL has proof that the employee was pressured to do the job in what appears to be a dangerous circumstance, then HEADS will roll. Have you not seen the MOL's commercials. We do not know the facts. I fully support the people running our clubs, and we need to give them 24 hours to get their facts straight for a proper new release. Things will change...and they will change for the better. Or HEADS will roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giddy UP Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I hear ya Giddy.Maybe they are afraid that if they say the wrong thing, they will comprimise their position or defence of the allegations. Crazy thing is, any 2bit lawyer with any experience with the MOL will have these charges vaporized the minute they get to court. No fair minded judge will see the point in pursuing the matter. In the mean time, our friends, our economy & our sport will pay a price that cannot be recovered. Agreed! This whole process will take possibly years to get to trial....and that is a big IF it gets there. In the meantime everyone is in limbo especially those directly involved with the charges...a total nightmare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySKS Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Normally, I would support the wait & see approach. Mike Farr said himself that the District acted on its own & that they were not forced to take this action in any way. He said that it was their choice to shut down & that the OFSC wont do anything unless the PSSD asks them for assistance. I'm not making this up! I do believe that they were left no choice but to shut down. They may not have been forced, but they didn't have any better options. Aside from that, if you were facing prison & fines, would you want the people you have committed your volunteer efforts for sit back, wait & see? I would want to know that I had real support. Not just the "sorry to hear about your problem" kind of support, but the ready to take action & solve the problem kind of support. And your right the OFSC can not just jump in and take over or order the trails closed. The MOL is dealing with the PSSD/ and or it's member Clubs. The OFSC will be there supporting them for what ever they ask for. Assuming these charges are in relation to paid groomer operators working on the trails, if the MOL has charged you with something under the MOL laws and you continue operations as if nothing happened, what do you suppose the MOL will do ? or the judge? Until PSSD can make changes to get them in compliance with the MOL they have to stop operations that are in violation. For safety reasons that means they close the trails. Does this help shed some light on the subject? It's very unfortunate that this has happened mid season, but we need to support all involved and hope that these volunteers and many others across the province don't get discouraged. We need to pull together so that we have trails to ride in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hmmm, I think that I see where you are coming from IndySKS. Any insight as to whether or not the MOL can be dealt with or is court the only option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkevsdi Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I fully support the executive of the club in their decision. Yes it sucks on a very important sledding weekend. But imagine you were in their shoes. Volunteering huge amounts of hours for NO PAY. Get flack when the trails aren't open, Get flack when the trails are open but not in pristine conditions. Get the headaches of running a small business without pay. What as your hard work becomes profit for hotels, restaurants, gas stations and sled shops. Have one very sad accident then have the government (who your efforts have provided huge amounts of tax dollars) lay charges against you for being a volunteer. Thanks for nothing goverment of Ontario. Sure they should shut down. I understand that the Ministry of Labour has an important roles. If I am running a business with a bunch of employees and am pulling down over $100,000.00 per year, then I better have all the right policies in place. But these volunteers whose efforts create jobs all over Ontario should be protected from these things. Or you won't have any volunteers. Remember the OFSC adds talking about the amount of money sledding generates for this province. How would they like it if the whole system shut down for a year? No sled sales or repairs, winter accomodation, restaurants would close. I guarantee that the businesses that tried to survive a year without sleds would see snowmobile clubs and the volunteers in a different light. PSSD execs do not deserve this BS. If they do get charged it is the duty of every sledder in the province to write letters to their MP and open their cheque books to cover any losses these volunteers have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4mysled Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I too am behind the district. I have always purchased my permit from the MRR (Magnetawan Ridge Runners). I feel bad for the people involved and their families. Since this has been going on for some time, dealing with the MOL on several different occasions this did not all of a sudden show up on the districts door step, I feel this should have been brought to the fore front. In addition if the district is unable to open the trails for the rest of the season, I feel as permit holders for that area we should be given the opportunity to redirect the permit sales to other districts that are grooming and opening the trails. The so called administration portion of the permit sales should be directed to the legal support of the district. I am really trying hard not to put the cart before the horse, however open and honest communication goes a long way. 4my Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySKS Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hmmm, I think that I see where you are coming from IndySKS. Any insight as to whether or not the MOL can be dealt with or is court the only option? Sorry I failed law class ....lol From my work experience it would depend on the nature of the charges, most likely there will be lots of lawyers involved and sometime a few years down the road most likely a judge....but that just a guess. Right now we just need to keep speculation and finger pointing to a minimum until a press release from PSSD or the OFSC can be made. No one but the direct people involved know the whole story or details and we have no choice but to wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.