Trax Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 "The MOL denies that it laid charges against the club and past president Marilyn Derks. Ministry spokesperson Bruce Skeaff said its lawyers are still looking into the matter and that charges may not be laid." So...they think that we dreamed up the charges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 MOL laid charges against a volunteer who was working so YOU could ride the trails. How do you think she feels today. I would be of interest if the MOL would have been involved or as involved if the operator was not being paid? Employee vs volunuteer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkevsdi Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hats off to the volunteers that put in so much effort for the sport. We all knew you had a thankless job (sorry job implies that you get paid) We didn't know how thankless the government was until now. Loonie: Classy act looking for a refund on your $180.00 permit. Did you not see that the volunteers are up against a $25,000.00 fine and possible jail time. How selfish are you? Before you attack the volunteers for how they handled this, you had better ask yourself if you are willing to take their places. Because that will be the end result of too much criticism. If the OFSC won't protect the executive of the Parry Sound club we should all consider chipping in to help with legal fees costs etc. That is the least we should do. I would think that this is the turning point. Enough is enough. I don't think the clubs should close trails this year. Partly because too many people think like Loonie and might launch a class action suit against the non paid volunteers to recover their $180.00. I think that some serious thought should go into cancelling next year. Inform the Manufacturers, Dealers, Hotel and Restaurant associations, Hell even the gas companies. What is at stake. Of course you would have to inform the Government of Canada and Ontario what is at stake. Remember all those millions of dollars that Sledding brings to Ontario? Well the provincial government takes an 8% cut off of that in PST. Plus they get a cut of the gas tax is used for sledding, grooming and trailering to our destinations. How would the Federal Government like to lose their GST revenues from the money. How would the Fed's like to be paying unemployment insurance to all the hotel, restaurant, repair shop and gas station workers who have jobs in the winter thanks to the sport. I love riding. I don't want to see the value of my sleds and trailer tank because of this. But a year without sledding would devastate the northern ontario economies for more than the value of my investment or Loonies trail permit cost. The government better pay attention to this. Well, I'm off to find some snow and open trails before it is all gone. Try to have a good weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Settle down folks. The OFSC CANNOT jump in as you think. The groomer operator was not an employee of the OFSC. He was hired by the club/ association/ district. He is their employee.Therefore they are the people charged. The OFSC is there to help in any way they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 who cares about snowmobile trails if you have a chance to do jail time and/or pay huge fines Absolutely. But where does that leave us? We can't just give indemnity to volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looney Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 revkevsdi Please backtrack and read my post.Belive me I am no where near directing my comments to the volenteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giddy UP Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Does OC have the wherewithal or care enough to help oganize a protest for feb 21st to show that you care or do you just want to whine about $180.00 permit ? That is the court date if you want to make a difference be there . Who will be involved how do you start a poll . Hey ssstorm... We're full of wherewithal and care.. Once we get more information about what is going on, we can formulate a plan. A press release from the PSSD would be very nice too and maybe on from the MOL. I am working on a letter to the Minister of Tourism that I plan on sending to him shortly. The economic impact of the trail closure in the Parry Sound area will be much more devastating than the closure of the trails.. Snowmobilers can ride somewhere else but the businesses and resorts will be left with a winter of pain and suffering... Someone needs to get this story on TV and soon... Tonight - A Channel News Barrie - 6:00PM - they said they'd have full coverage ....I now I'll be watching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 .... The MOL denies that it laid charges against the club and past president Marilyn Derks. Ministry spokesperson Bruce Skeaff said its lawyers are still looking into the matter and that charges may not be laid.... The charges were laid a court date was set . Lets just hope that the MOL is backtracking . So the press, that says they contacted the MOL is wrong? Who do we believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstorm Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 .... The MOL denies that it laid charges against the club and past president Marilyn Derks. Ministry spokesperson Bruce Skeaff said its lawyers are still looking into the matter and that charges may not be laid.... The charges were laid a court date was set . Lets just hope that the MOL is backtracking . So the press, that says they contacted the MOL is wrong? Who do we believe? The MOL has apparently released a second press release admitting to the charges .I havn't seen it myself but the Parry Sound media has it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The MOL has apparently released a second press release admitting to the charges .I havn't seen it myself but the Parry Sound media has it. Nothing on their website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The Parry Sound paper has it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyboy Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 If Mr. Ryman was a volunteer and not a paid employee, would the MOL even be involved or would this be treated as an unfortunate accident? I ask this because I can see where volunteers would be terrified for what could happen to them in the future but if the groomer operators are volunteers as well can other volunteers at the clubs executive level be liable. I think it is because a paid employee was involved in this situation. Maybe the best solution even though it would lead to more head aches for volunteers is not to have paid employees in any clubs. I am not 100 % sure on this but I don't think that the MOL can come anywhere near you if everyone is a volunteer in the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I have been told by a good source that they have made their point and grooming has resumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajaboy Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Here is an updated article I found on the great wide web at Trails were closed after the club and its past-president were charged by the Ministry of Labour (MOL) under the Occupation Health and Safety Act over the February 2007 death of groomer Michael Ryman. Mr. Ryman, 61, died in early 2007 after the grooming machine he was driving fell through the ice on Bear (Wiwassasegen) Lake. The organization closed trails because of the unknown liability its volunteers face, in light of the MOL charges, said PSSD administrator Tracey Rand. The club has hired a lawyer and trails could re-open in the near future, once the issue of liability is cleared up, she added. The MOL denies that it has laid charges against the club and past-president Marilyn Derks. Ministry spokesperson Bruce Skeaff said its lawyers are still looking into the matter and that charges may not be laid. But in the summons to court document sent to the Parry Sound Snowsport Association, which is the corporate name of the PSSD, and obtained by the Beacon Star, it states the organization failed, "as an employer, to provide information, instruction and supervision to a worker to protect the health and safety of a worker contrary to section 25 (2)(a) of the Occupation Health and Safety Act, RSO, c).1". The club is charged with failing to provide Mr. Ryman with "information, instruction and/or supervision" in the use of the groomer he was driving; didn't provide Mr. Ryman with a competent supervisor; didn't have or maintain a procedure "to monitor the whereabouts and safety of a worker"; and, didn't have, or annually review, a written occupational health and safety policy and a program to implement the policy at the time of Mr. Ryman's death. "If you wish to know the factual information which the Ministry of Labour intends to use at trial, you or your company's lawyer may telephone or write to me and I will provide disclosure," wrote Lori Hamilton, Crown counsel prosecuting on behalf of the Ministry of Labour, in the PSSD summons cover letter. Ms Derks also faces four charges under the occupational health and safety act. She received her summons in the parking lot of the PSSD office the morning of Thursday, Jan. 24. The summonses for Ms Derks and the PSSD were issued in North Bay on Jan. 22. Over 1,200 kilometres of trail are closed from Moon River north to the French River and from Georgian Bay east to Highway 11. The closure has alarmed area business owners who say they stand to, collectively, lose millions of dollars if the trails remain closed. Ms Derks resigned as president of the PSSD Sunday. She said she resigned based on an unrelated issue. The PSSD faces maximum fines of $500,000 per count, plus a 25 per cent court administration fee. Ms Derks faces maximum fines of $25,000 per count, plus a 25 per cent court administration fee, or one year in jail, per count. Both Ms Derks and the PSSD are scheduled to appear in court Feb. 21, according to the summonses. Some trails, those managed by Cramadog in the Dunchurch/Ardbeg area, and those managed by Dunhamic, in the McKellar area, remain open. Read more, including the reaction of some business owners, in Friday's Parry Sound Beacon Star. © 2006 North Star Publishing and ParrySound.com 67 James St., Parry Sound, ON P2A 2X4 Phone: (705) 746-2104 Fax: (705) 746-8369[/color] Very interesting...I have tried to obtain the lastest press release from the MOL..have searched on the web with no luck.. Volunteers are the key to this sport surviving and without them we as club members would not have what we have today. Thanks to all the volunteers that take the BS and do the job day in and day out for guys like me to ride. I appreciate all of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcsldr Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 MOL laid charges against a volunteer who was working so YOU could ride the trails. How do you think she feels today. I would be of interest if the MOL would have been involved or as involved if the operator was not being paid? Employee vs volunuteer he was a paid employee than under the occupational health and safety act the following definitions apply.... Workers and employers must share the responsibility for occupational health and safety. This concept of an internal responsibility system is based on the principle that the workplace parties themselves are in the best position to identify health and safety problems and to develop solutions. Ideally, the internal responsibility system involves everyone, from the company chief executive officer to the worker. How well the system works depends upon whether there is a complete, unbroken chain of responsibility and accountability for health and safety. Several provisions of the Act are aimed at fostering the internal responsibility system. Two important provisions introduced in 1990 are: (1) the requirement for employers to have a health and safety policy and program; and (2) the direct responsibility that officers of a corporation have for health and safety. The joint health and safety committee, or, in smaller workplaces, the health and safety representative, has a role to play by monitoring the internal responsibility system. The Act sets out the basic rules of operation for both joint committees and health and safety representatives. The Act imposes duties on those who have any degree of control over the workplace, the materials and equipment in the workplace and the direction of the work force. There is a general duty on employers to take all reasonable precautions to protect the health and safety of workers. In addition, the Act and regulations set out many specific responsibilities of the employer. For example, there are duties that specifically relate to toxic substances, hazardous machinery, worker education and personal protective equipment. There is a duty on all officers and directors of corporations to ensure that their corporations comply with the Act and regulations. The duties of workers are generally to work safely, in accordance with the Act and regulations. Workplace Any place in, on or near to where a worker works. A workplace could be a building, a mine, a construction site, an open field, a road, a forest or even a beach. The test is: Is the worker being directed and paid to be there, or to be near there? If the answer is "yes", then it is a workplace. Worker A person who is paid to perform work or supply services. This does not include an inmate of a correctional or similar institution working inside the institution on a work project or rehabilitation program. Employer A person who employs one or more workers. This includes someone who contracts for a worker's services. For example, if you pay a temporary help agency for the services of workers supplied by the agency, you are the employer of those workers while they are under your direction. A contractor or subcontractor who performs work or supplies services for an owner, constructor, contractor or subcontractor is also an employer if he or she in turn employs workers. the issue is here that since he was a paid employee than the club has responsibility to ensure his safety and that the corporation abide by all applicable legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstorm Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The PSSD has resumed operations !The press release is ongoing and trails should be in shape for the weekend we hope . Looney maybe we will see you out there helping clear brush of the trail. Now lets not lose site of the issue . Mike had been grooming since there was groomers here he was one of the originals . If anybody knew not to groom out there it was him . For the MOL to persue a volenteer is not only obscene but threatens the very fabric of our society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trax Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Great News! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE UPDATE TO THE STATUS OF TRAIL OPERATIONS Parry Sound ON, January 31, 2008: On January 24th, 2008, the Parry Sound Snowmobile District (PSSD) and a volunteer officer of the corporation were charged under the Occupational Health & Safety Act as a result of an accident which occurred February 12, 2007. In response, the volunteer board held an emergency meeting Tuesday evening (January 29th, 2008) and unanimously agreed to temporarily cease grooming operations. In absence of trail operations, trails were closed to protect the safety of our riders. The action was taken until the board could investigate implications associated with the volunteer board and their relationship with employees from a liability perspective. Understanding the urgency of the situation, the PSSD executive met Thursday, January 31, 2008 to determine how to resolve this serious issue. Working in cooperation with the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) to resolve the liability implications and recognizing the importance of our trail network to our riders, business partners, employees and volunteers, PSSD has resumed full operations and are now working on reopening trails. PSSD will continue to work with the OFSC, the Ministry of Labour and any other government agencies to further protect the health and safety of our workers. Snowmobile volunteers are a passionate group of people with a love of the sport. The Parry Sound Snowmobile District regrets any inconvenience that this has caused to our members, visitors to our area and our supporters. We thank everyone for your patience and understanding as we work through our concerns. Please check the OFSC and PSSD websites for regular trail updates. -30- for further information please contact: Tracey Rand Administrator (705) 746 7663 Lisa Ernst Secretary (705) 732-2632 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looney Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The PSSD has resumed operations !The press release is ongoing and trails should be in shape for the weekend we hope . Looney maybe we will see you out there helping clear brush of the trail. Now lets not lose site of the issue . Mike had been grooming since there was groomers here he was one of the originals . If anybody knew not to groom out there it was him . For the MOL to persue a volenteer is not only obscene but threatens the very fabric of our society. Although I haven’t officially volunteered with PSSD.For those of you who use the Rankin Lake Rd trail, as you know there where quit a few trees down in the middle of the trail in the fall. I can tell you this, my son and I worked very hard to clear that portion of trail to have it ready for the first snow fall. We did this at our on risk. I will be more then happy to keep this portion clear for my fellow sledders. This is Great News! Sled Safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Settle down folks. The OFSC CANNOT jump in as you think. The groomer operator was not an employee of the OFSC. He was hired by the club/ association/ district. He is their employee.Therefore they are the people charged. The OFSC is there to help in any way they can. The OFSC is the clubs The OFSC can not stand there and pass the buck This issue is NOT resolved yes trail are to be groomed again,but that was not the point of this situation The OFSC does NO longer want to deal with clubs they want to deal with districts only and clubs are suppose to voice concerns to Districts :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdooman Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I am still adapting to Canadian and Ontarian Law... Help me understand... If I or anyone volunteers their time and services we are under the employ of the organization that we are aiding? This is a serious matter and it is very troubling for the loss of life, I mean no disrespect in any way. That said, where is the law regarding what constitutes employee status and that of volunteer? To make an extreme illustration - if I render aid to a motorist with a flat tire and receive an injury (no matter how severe or slight) I can file a claim with the MoL? Does something about this seem not right? Then too about the trails, if it is a road that would normally be used to access that is unplowed or is crown land can the loss of club support for grooming operation force it closed from what would be lawful use? Not talking private lands since a trail closure suspends the lend/lease/liability arrangement, but rather public lands. Not supporting the act of trespassing, just looking for some clarity here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstorm Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Settle down folks. The OFSC CANNOT jump in as you think. The groomer operator was not an employee of the OFSC. He was hired by the club/ association/ district. He is their employee.Therefore they are the people charged. The OFSC is there to help in any way they can. The OFSC is the clubs The OFSC can not stand there and pass the buck This issue is NOT resolved yes trail are to be groomed again,but that was not the point of this situation The OFSC does NO longer want to deal with clubs they want to deal with districts only and clubs are suppose to voice concerns to Districts :poke: Freezerburnt you are right the issue is not resolved ! The trails are being groomed again for now The PSSD is the district board and the OFSC basically abandoned them to the dogs I don't think the volenteers that run this area or any area will sleep well until spring When most volenteers quit thier positions they sell thier sleds the stress and burnout has made them hate the sport . The charges are still to be faced Marilyn is a good person who has selflessly dedicated herself and worked tirelessly for snowmobiling . The charges don't bring back Mike nor do I believe that any of the measures mentioned would have stopped it . The PSSD needs our support All other clubs had better pay attention they will be next they will need all of these large administrative loads The OFSC needs to finally wake up (the main reason this was done ) until this they would not lift a finger to help (sort of like thier new media partner that rides past stranded sledders) They say they were watching but those of us that know know different (does anyone have a picture of an ostrich with its head in the sand ?) They piss money away on shows with bad accounting and abandon volenteers. I still love the sport but have lost ALL respect for the OFSC God help us enjoy sledding while it lasts before the government ends it For that matter enjoy any volenteer based sports they too are in danger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Settle down folks. The OFSC CANNOT jump in as you think. The groomer operator was not an employee of the OFSC. He was hired by the club/ association/ district. He is their employee.Therefore they are the people charged. The OFSC is there to help in any way they can. The OFSC is the clubs The OFSC can not stand there and pass the buck This issue is NOT resolved yes trail are to be groomed again,but that was not the point of this situation The OFSC does NO longer want to deal with clubs they want to deal with districts only and clubs are suppose to voice concerns to Districts :poke: Freezerburnt you are right the issue is not resolved ! The trails are being groomed again for now The PSSD is the district board and the OFSC basically abandoned them to the dogs I don't think the volenteers that run this area or any area will sleep well until spring When most volenteers quit thier positions they sell thier sleds the stress and burnout has made them hate the sport . The charges are still to be faced Marilyn is a good person who has selflessly dedicated herself and worked tirelessly for snowmobiling . The charges don't bring back Mike nor do I believe that any of the measures mentioned would have stopped it . The PSSD needs our support All other clubs had better pay attention they will be next they will need all of these large administrative loads The OFSC needs to finally wake up (the main reason this was done ) until this they would not lift a finger to help (sort of like thier new media partner that rides past stranded sledders) They say they were watching but those of us that know know different (does anyone have a picture of an ostrich with its head in the sand ?) They piss money away on shows with bad accounting and abandon volenteers. I still love the sport but have lost ALL respect for the OFSC God help us enjoy sledding while it lasts before the government ends it For that matter enjoy any volenteer based sports they too are in danger! You got that bold part right as well as the rest the bold part burns my they are if they think people believe the #s provided by them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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