2010 OFSC trail permits - new "classic" class

[djszl500]

For the 2010 season, the OFSC website is showing a reduced permit price of $125 for those machines 15 years and older.

Awesome! This will help those of us who enjoy snowmobiling but don't travel far. It will help keep my family on the snow, and give me more incentive to keep the old sleds running.

[Giddy UP]

That's great....now they need to address the "family" situation where you have more than 2.....a "family discount" would be great! One of the reasons we sold our "extra" sled that we kept for our family and friends to enjoy was the price of the permit for a sled that only gets minimal use. It would be great if they adopted something like the Family Plan My 2 cents!

[Viper]

That's great....now they need to address the "family" situation where you have more than 2.....a "family discount" would be great! One of the reasons we sold our "extra" sled that we kept for our family and friends to enjoy was the price of the permit for a sled that only gets minimal use. It would be great if they adopted something like the Family Plan My 2 cents!

And maybe even add more sleds to Family Rides like the PET Ride

[Yukon]

That's great....now they need to address the "family" situation where you have more than 2.....a "family discount" would be great! One of the reasons we sold our "extra" sled that we kept for our family and friends to enjoy was the price of the permit for a sled that only gets minimal use. It would be great if they adopted something like the Family Plan My 2 cents!

That won't happen until someone draws up a motion for the floor at 2010 OFSC AGM .

How would you present it ?

What would you like to see happen ?

How much of a discount ?

I myself feel that those who don't qualify for the Classic permit are subsidizing for them to ride cheaper .

How would a Family discount be different ?

I feel all permit holders should be treated equal , and this clasic permit should be for those sleds 25 years or older .

How are the people unable to have a family going to feel ?

These are just a few items to consider .

[Domino]

That's great....now they need to address the "family" situation where you have more than 2.....a "family discount" would be great! One of the reasons we sold our "extra" sled that we kept for our family and friends to enjoy was the price of the permit for a sled that only gets minimal use. It would be great if they adopted something like the Family Plan My 2 cents!

That won't happen until someone draws up a motion for the floor at 2010 OFSC AGM .

How would you present it ?

What would you like to see happen ?

How much of a discount ?

I myself feel that those who don't qualify for the Classic permit are subsidizing for them to ride cheaper .

How would a Family discount be different ?

I feel all permit holders should be treated equal , and this clasic permit should be for those sleds 25 years or older .

How are the people unable to have a family going to feel ?

These are just a few items to consider .

I tend to agree that the discount on older sleds maybe misguided. I thought it was meant for the classic sled riders, not kids with old sleds.

Its as bad as the vehicle rebates for clunkers, most people with pre-1995 vehicles would be stretched to buy new. If you rebated 5 year old vehicles, it would be realistic and would supply used vehicles for the clunker owners to upgrade too. Offer a clunker rebate for upgrading by 5 years or more. OK, enough of the high jack within a reply.

A family discount would not offend me. The discount could be applied on a sliding scale, the more sleds, the better the discount. All sleds must be registered to the same address. This could help those families with the costs and get more youth into sledding. When I'm STG's age, I need younger riders on the trails to keep the system going.

Based on this season and next's rates:

$250 First Sled ($50 discount for early purchase)

$200 Second Sled ($50 discount for early purchase)

$150 Third Sled ($25 discount for early purchase)

$125 4 and up ($25 discount for early purchase)

4 permits as low as $575

OR

Offer a volunteer permit discount. Then when families want to get a discount, they can get the discount X the number of sleds.

Example: $250 per sled, volunteer discount $50, Early purchase discount $50 (Requires a minimum of 10 volunteer hours, one discount per volunteer. (so 40hrs by Father does not = 4 permits @ discount)

4 permits as low as $600

Both of these scenarios would have to drive the total number of permit sales up to compensate for the discounts. We cannot afford to lose trail support $$.

I like the volunteer discount. I think the more people that get involved, the more would understand how much goes into preparing and maintaining the trail system. Then maybe they will stop complaining about the $200 for a permit so that they can ride their $5,000-$15,000 sleds with the $2500 custom turbo and noise making cans on one of top trail systems in the continent!.

[Viper]

That's great....now they need to address the "family" situation where you have more than 2.....a "family discount" would be great! One of the reasons we sold our "extra" sled that we kept for our family and friends to enjoy was the price of the permit for a sled that only gets minimal use. It would be great if they adopted something like the Family Plan My 2 cents!

That won't happen until someone draws up a motion for the floor at 2010 OFSC AGM .

How would you present it ?

What would you like to see happen ?

How much of a discount ?

I myself feel that those who don't qualify for the Classic permit are subsidizing for them to ride cheaper .

How would a Family discount be different ?

I feel all permit holders should be treated equal , and this clasic permit should be for those sleds 25 years or older .

How are the people unable to have a family going to feel ?

These are just a few items to consider .

I tend to agree that the discount on older sleds maybe misguided. I thought it was meant for the classic sled riders, not kids with old sleds.

Its as bad as the vehicle rebates for clunkers, most people with pre-1995 vehicles would be stretched to buy new. If you rebated 5 year old vehicles, it would be realistic and would supply used vehicles for the clunker owners to upgrade too. Offer a clunker rebate for upgrading by 5 years or more. OK, enough of the high jack within a reply.

A family discount would not offend me. The discount could be applied on a sliding scale, the more sleds, the better the discount. All sleds must be registered to the same address. This could help those families with the costs and get more youth into sledding. When I'm STG's age, I need younger riders on the trails to keep the system going.

Based on this season and next's rates:

$250 First Sled ($50 discount for early purchase)

$200 Second Sled ($50 discount for early purchase)

$150 Third Sled ($25 discount for early purchase)

$125 4 and up ($25 discount for early purchase)

4 permits as low as $575

OR

Offer a volunteer permit discount. Then when families want to get a discount, they can get the discount X the number of sleds.

Example: $250 per sled, volunteer discount $50, Early purchase discount $50 (Requires a minimum of 10 volunteer hours, one discount per volunteer. (so 40hrs by Father does not = 4 permits @ discount)

4 permits as low as $600

Both of these scenarios would have to drive the total number of permit sales up to compensate for the discounts. We cannot afford to lose trail support $$.

I like the volunteer discount. I think the more people that get involved, the more would understand how much goes into preparing and maintaining the trail system. Then maybe they will stop complaining about the $200 for a permit so that they can ride their $5,000-$15,000 sleds with the $2500 custom turbo and noise making cans on one of top trail systems in the continent!.

OK who let the Monkey out of his cage, STG you have some splanning to do it was your watch :curse:

Dom I like your Family Sled Pass idea, not that it effects me but I do know others that could benifit from it, Giddy being one of many.

As for trading Volunteer time for discounts, I think that's asking for trouble and it could lead down a slippery slope. I know where your going with it but IMHO it could be trouble but I will let Yukon/Nutter & others deal with this one as they are far more versed on this issue than I.

[skidooer]

When I'm STG's age, I need younger riders on the trails to keep the system going.

I know many people who grew up during the time that the OFSC started pushing the idea of family sledding and logged many miles on the trails as kids. Not a single one of them own a snowmobile today. Anecdotal, sure. But I am not certain there is a positive correlation between starting them young and continuing to enjoy the sport into adulthood.

Is $50 really going to turn someone away from buying a several thousand dollar machine that requires hundreds of dollars in insurance and can easily burn $50 worth of gas by lunch time?

[muddy tires]

My son is turning 12 this year and is excited about getting his license. But a $50 discount is not going to make me buy a suitable used sled, insure, license and trail permit it, fill it with gas, upgrade to a larger trailer and bigger truck to pull it with. Our soon to be 3 licensed drivers will be sharing our 2 existing sleds, taking turns riding on the back, for at least a few years.

[Viper]

When I'm STG's age, I need younger riders on the trails to keep the system going.

Is $50 really going to turn someone away from buying a several thousand dollar machine that requires hundreds of dollars in insurance and can easily burn $50 worth of gas by lunch time?

Maybe 50 bucks will or will not help but one thing is for sure is you gotta start em young or they won't learn.

I know what your trying to say Skidooer and I am sure we all know a few ole timers that are no longer involved, that's why it's so important for all of us to help promote Family Sledding again.

[skidooer]

posts & attitudes like yours won't help that's for sure

I am confused. How does debating the merits of a pretty significant change to the OFSC not help everyone understand the issue as a whole from, hopefully, every point of view?

that's why it's so important for all of us to help promote Family Sledding again.

No group should ever be discouraged from using the OFSC trail network, of course, but where is the benefit to spending the most resources on promoting it to those who have the least amount of disposable income and those who have the least amount of time to actually make use of the system?

If you check out the OFSC's own figures you'll find that most snowmobilers are past the age of supporting families. They are also past the age of having been snowmobiling with their families as kids, further pointing to the lack of importance of that age group being on the trails. I understand the emotional appeal of targeting families. I just fail to see how it makes sense from a long term stability perspective.

[Wildbill]

Once upon a time we had a family pass it was abused and badly handled by the clubs the end result was no more family pass.

[Nutter]

Don't agree with the "classic" permit myself too much, for all the same reasons Yukon and Skidooer mentioned.

As for a family discount, show a way it can't be abuse by just registering extra sleds in one persons name, and it could see some head way.

Remember Que, NS and NB sled federations are subsidized through registration, Que with $25 of the annual $73 reg going to the FCMQ, NS $40 out of $50.65 going to the SANS and $25 out of $41.00 NBFSC from every single sled registered in those provinces, whether they buy a trail pass or not.

Here in Ont reg cost $15 for southern Ont and $0 for Northern Ont, with no subsidy going to the OFSC, but we have been seeing $3 to $5 mil in Provincial grants each season for the last few years, and sustainabilty in recieving it in the future is good. We also have zero Gov control over how our permit dollars are spent, it all stays within the OFSC. Not so with the other three, their permit money has been raped into other Gov programs.

Now before everone says those places are so awesome to ride, look at where you go to ride in those places, I doubt many ride in Boisibrand, Mirabel, Chambly or anywhere else within a hour and a half/two hour drive of Montreal (comparable to central Ontario), most head north, and we have the same if not better caliber trails and destinations as comparable distance from major pop areas.

More food for thought ..

Ont ..... 231 clubs 39,742 km of trail 305,000 reg sleds

Que .... 208 clubs 32,720 km of trail 168,699 reg sleds

NB ...... 51 clubs 7,100 km of trail 13,778 reg sleds

NS ...... 20 clubs 3,500 km of trail 7,000 reg sleds

The OFSC also sells more permits annualy then all three combined, we must be doing something right.

[Domino]

Is $50 really going to turn someone away from buying a several thousand dollar machine that requires hundreds of dollars in insurance and can easily burn $50 worth of gas by lunch time?

Apparently so.... Have you heard the whining about the $20 increase? Its like it will make or break the sport to some!!

[Domino]

posts & attitudes like yours won't help that's for sure

Where did this quote come from? I don't see it anywhere....

[revrnd]

Nutter, I'd be leery of using the 305,000 snowmobile stat. I know the OFSC & MTO like to throw it out there (as long as I can remember), but I have always found it hard to believe that w/ the OFSC selling approx' 90,000 permits last winter, there are 215,000 unpermitted sleds in Ontario.

There are that many ice fishermen (on Scugog, Simcoe & Nipissing), trappers & prospectors, that don't need to purchase permits out there?

I have some info IndySKS posted a year or so ago about sled registration. It's hard to tell the date but the date is blurry. It could be '81 or '91.

[Nutter]

Nutter, I'd be leery of using the 305,000 snowmobile stat. I know the OFSC & MTO like to throw it out there (as long as I can remember), but I have always found it hard to believe that w/ the OFSC selling approx' 90,000 permits last winter, there are 215,000 unpermitted sleds in Ontario.

There are that many ice fishermen (on Scugog, Simcoe & Nipissing), trappers & prospectors, that don't need to purchase permits out there?

I have some info IndySKS posted a year or so ago about sled registration. It's hard to tell the date but the date is blurry. It could be '81 or '91.

The OFSC only publishes the number the MTO allows them to publish, and I think it would be safe to say that the Ont MTO number for reg sleds reflects all reg sleds, not annually validated sleds. But you can bet those other provinces numbers are annually validated sleds. Hence the reason why I think the vote for the classic permit passed, a lot of people are thinking there's a lot of those 305,000 trail ready.

[Domino]

Nutter, I'd be leery of using the 305,000 snowmobile stat. I know the OFSC & MTO like to throw it out there (as long as I can remember), but I have always found it hard to believe that w/ the OFSC selling approx' 90,000 permits last winter, there are 215,000 unpermitted sleds in Ontario.

There are that many ice fishermen (on Scugog, Simcoe & Nipissing), trappers & prospectors, that don't need to purchase permits out there?

I have some info IndySKS posted a year or so ago about sled registration. It's hard to tell the date but the date is blurry. It could be '81 or '91.

The OFSC only publishes the number the MTO allows them to publish, and I think it would be safe to say that the Ont MTO number for reg sleds reflects all reg sleds, not annually validated sleds. But you can bet those other provinces numbers are annually validated sleds. Hence the reason why I think the vote for the classic permit passed, a lot of people are thinking there's a lot of those 305,000 trail ready.

I t would be more accurate for the MTO to publish the number of registered sleds with current validation, or at least current this past winter.

[revrnd]

Before the OFSC and/or the MTO even consider a family discount they had better determine if "going down that road" will be revenue positive, negative or neutral. It makes no sense if there are more sleds in the system if there is no gain for the clubs & OFSC.

Right now my family (parents, bro, sister in law & me, living in 3 households) have 5 sleds. If the nephew gets his licence, an Elan goes on the trails w/ the Classic permit.

Currently those 5 permits are full price purchases. If the family discount went into effect, we could re-register the sleds in 1 spot where there actually are during the winter months & qualify for the discount.

How is that going to help the OFSC?

[Domino]

Before the OFSC and/or the MTO even consider a family discount they had better determine if "going down that road" will be revenue positive, negative or neutral. It makes no sense if there are more sleds in the system if there is no gain for the clubs & OFSC.

Right now my family (parents, bro, sister in law & me, living in 3 households) have 5 sleds. If the nephew gets his licence, an Elan goes on the trails w/ the Classic permit.

Currently those 5 permits are full price purchases. If the family discount went into effect, we could re-register the sleds in 1 spot where there actually are during the winter months & qualify for the discount.

How is that going to help the OFSC?

Agreed, it will not help unless it is ultimately revenue positive.

[Nutter]

I t would be more accurate for the MTO to publish the number of registered sleds with current validation, or at least current this past winter.

Definatly, I would be willing to bet had the MTO of released that number (along with year of validated sleds) the majority vote for the classic permit would of been different.

Before the OFSC and/or the MTO even consider a family discount they had better determine if "going down that road" will be revenue positive, negative or neutral. It makes no sense if there are more sleds in the system if there is no gain for the clubs & OFSC.

Right now my family (parents, bro, sister in law & me, living in 3 households) have 5 sleds. If the nephew gets his licence, an Elan goes on the trails w/ the Classic permit.

Currently those 5 permits are full price purchases. If the family discount went into effect, we could re-register the sleds in 1 spot where there actually are during the winter months & qualify for the discount.

How is that going to help the OFSC?

This is were I also see us with the classic permit, will enough classic permit eligible sleds buy classic permits to off set those we lose full pop permits to. ?

IMO all clubs and their vendors should start enforcing the make, mode, year, and vin on the permit application so we have some hard stats to go on. We could even issue prepaid vouchers for those who haven't yet received delivery of what they are riding before the Dec early bird price cut off. It sure would make things much easier when making decisions in changing permit structure to hard numbers.

Also hopefully we also see an increase in volunteers with this classic permit to help off set the volunteer hours we already put in.

[revrnd]

NB ...... 51 clubs 7,100 km of trail 13,778 reg sleds

I wish I could find the thread on 1 of the other sites that I frequent. Somebody was going on about the HUGE number of permits they sell in NB w/ all the various classes of trail permits they have.

His opinion was if the OFSC went the same way, it would sell a lot more permits.

[old sledhead]

We have already seen some positive results with the clasic permit, our office recieved a call for one last week. The people want to get out and try sleding again, its for a 70's sled. The last time the sled had a permitted was the late 80's. People like this will not buy a full price permit and with any luck they will get addicted to this sport like we are and will go out a buy a new sled( and permit ) but still keep the old one on the trails too.

[Domino]

We have already seen some positive results with the clasic permit, our office recieved a call for one last week. The people want to get out and try sleding again, its for a 70's sled. The last time the sled had a permitted was the late 80's. People like this will not buy a full price permit and with any luck they will get addicted to this sport like we are and will go out a buy a new sled( and permit ) but still keep the old one on the trails too.

Good example. Thanks

[skidooboy]

the volunteer rebate or discount should be a good idea. it is an incentive to get people involved in the clubs and trail systems they use. yes it has been abused and will have some loopholers taking advantage but, tell me what the average volunteer has to motivate him or her to join and help???

work on trails day in and day out, signing, brushing, grooming (in some cases), handling re-routes on a moments notice, including flagging the new route for heavy equipment to make the new route, filling out permit paperwork, filling out ofsc/mto/mnr permits, reimbursement, or fund requests, fielding calls asking about trail conditions, or complaints about the trail they just worked on.

all while paying full price for a permit, being away from friends family and sometime work. with little or no recognition from anyone.

WOW, i must say, sign me up.

i have volunteered, helped the clubs since the second year i started sledding in ontario. i have brushed, signed, remarked trail, broke open trail, sold permits at snowshows, sold permits from home, talked to many people getting them interested in going north, including guiding many, and getting more interest in ontario via the blogs, and sledding forums. ect... so before anyone asks what i do i wanted to clarify that.

there should be a way to get a discount for the hours you put in to give you incentive to work more for the club/clubs. the dad working 40 hour and getting only 50.00 is not a very good example in my opinion. 40 hours is what most work in a week. that 40 hours to everyone is their personal time.

if you are giving up work or personal time to help an organization bring funds into the community, you should be able to get some sort of perk other than getting scolded for a poor trail cause your groomer is down, or forgetting to fill out the mounds of paperwork buracracy that is involved with operating this business. and dont get me wrong, this is a business, non profit or not.

the volunteers are getting older an tired of what is going on. the paperwork alone is enough to make someone quit. now i have been told the clubs cannot use dierect internet links with paypal accounts to sell their permits due to an new mto privacy rule. i mean come on!!!! make it easier for people to help, not harder. sooner or later with out an incentive or influx of cash, or new sledders, you will have no volunteers. and i fail to see the mto/mnr grooming the trails for us when it is all said and done. the question is, what can YOU do to help?

ski

[Domino]

the volunteer rebate or discount should be a good idea. it is an incentive to get people involved in the clubs and trail systems they use. yes it has been abused and will have some loopholers taking advantage but, tell me what the average volunteer has to motivate him or her to join and help???

work on trails day in and day out, signing, brushing, grooming (in some cases), handling re-routes on a moments notice, including flagging the new route for heavy equipment to make the new route, filling out permit paperwork, filling out ofsc/mto/mnr permits, reimbursement, or fund requests, fielding calls asking about trail conditions, or complaints about the trail they just worked on.

all while paying full price for a permit, being away from friends family and sometime work. with little or no recognition from anyone.

WOW, i must say, sign me up.

i have volunteered, helped the clubs since the second year i started sledding in ontario. i have brushed, signed, remarked trail, broke open trail, sold permits at snowshows, sold permits from home, talked to many people getting them interested in going north, including guiding many, and getting more interest in ontario via the blogs, and sledding forums. ect... so before anyone asks what i do i wanted to clarify that.

there should be a way to get a discount for the hours you put in to give you incentive to work more for the club/clubs. the dad working 40 hour and getting only 50.00 is not a very good example in my opinion. 40 hours is what most work in a week. that 40 hours to everyone is their personal time.

if you are giving up work or personal time to help an organization bring funds into the community, you should be able to get some sort of perk other than getting scolded for a poor trail cause your groomer is down, or forgetting to fill out the mounds of paperwork buracracy that is involved with operating this business. and dont get me wrong, this is a business, non profit or not.

the volunteers are getting older an tired of what is going on. the paperwork alone is enough to make someone quit. now i have been told the clubs cannot use dierect internet links with paypal accounts to sell their permits due to an new mto privacy rule. i mean come on!!!! make it easier for people to help, not harder. sooner or later with out an incentive or influx of cash, or new sledders, you will have no volunteers. and i fail to see the mto/mnr grooming the trails for us when it is all said and done. the question is, what can YOU do to help?

ski

Volunteering is rewarding to most. I personally have worked 1000's of volunteer hours in my lifetime. (Not all snowmobile related) If you put an hourly rate associated with volunteering, we could face a problem of too many volunteers and not enough work. That could lead to lower revenues for the OFSC resulting in a lack of funding to support the trail system expenses.

It is not as simple as any one suggestion, but they are all good ideas and feedback. We can only hope that a great plan to encourage to blood to the sport ensues.