A Plea for Help

[02Sled]

Simple solution then Cut all funding and clubs keep what they sell! Rich clubs would have trails poor would have none. I think you would loose more then the North however!

 

In the end it always comes down to the North South argument. Maybe you could just cut off the North and support the South only no transfer payments above a certain latitude!

 

I myself don't see it as simply north south distinction. I see it as those clubs that have a high volume of traffic and similarly a high number of permit buyers and as it seems for almost every club a shortage of volunteers relative to a club which has a low volume of traffic a low number of permit buyers and once again a possibly even greater shortage of volunteers in comparison. When those clubs with that high volume of riders are finding it hard to make ends meet it is equally as hard to tell them to bite the bullet and send a chunk of cash to a club whose trails will see maybe 20 permit carrying sleds on a Saturday when their own will see 300+ sleds on that same day. I am sure there are some that will see even more.

 

I haven't any problem with supporting the clubs with less cash but there does come a limit as to what is affordable and reasonable to expect those clubs to take out of their hard earned permit dollars. This is especially true when those who buy where they ride expect their trails to be in good shape and reasonably so ask why they are in the condition they are. Then you tell them we could do better but we sent some of your money to XYZ club in ABC.

 

 The only reason anyone can relate this to north south is population densities simply manifest more riders in the areas closer to the GTA than they do in the areas that one would call the north.

 

There also SEEMS to be a pervasive sense of entitlement from SOME riders in SOME parts of what one would call the north (the comment has been made by others) that they don't need the OFSC trail permit since the trails are on crown land and therefore they are ENTITLED to ride them without a permit.

 

It has been suggested by some that groomed trails in "the north" are not required. That the people will ride regardless. If the trails were to shut down, what would the impact be. Would people still ride those same routes regardless as some have suggested or would a year without those trails bring out a huge influx of permit buyers and volunteers. Like the old Joani Mitchell song "Sometime you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

[Wildbill]

I myself don't see it as simply north south distinction. I see it as those clubs that have a high volume of traffic and similarly a high number of permit buyers and as it seems for almost every club a shortage of volunteers relative to a club which has a low volume of traffic a low number of permit buyers and once again a possibly even greater shortage of volunteers in comparison. When those clubs with that high volume of riders are finding it hard to make ends meet it is equally as hard to tell them to bite the bullet and send a chunk of cash to a club whose trails will see maybe 20 permit carrying sleds on a Saturday when their own will see 300+ sleds on that same day. I am sure there are some that will see even more.

 

I haven't any problem with supporting the clubs with less cash but there does come a limit as to what is affordable and reasonable to expect those clubs to take out of their hard earned permit dollars. This is especially true when those who buy where they ride expect their trails to be in good shape and reasonably so ask why they are in the condition they are. Then you tell them we could do better but we sent some of your money to XYZ club in ABC.

 

 The only reason anyone can relate this to north south is population densities simply manifest more riders in the areas closer to the GTA than they do in the areas that one would call the north.

 

There also SEEMS to be a pervasive sense of entitlement from SOME riders in SOME parts of what one would call the north (the comment has been made by others) that they don't need the OFSC trail permit since the trails are on crown land and therefore they are ENTITLED to ride them without a permit.

 

It has been suggested by some that groomed trails in "the north" are not required. That the people will ride regardless. If the trails were to shut down, what would the impact be. Would people still ride those same routes regardless as some have suggested or would a year without those trails bring out a huge influx of permit buyers and volunteers. Like the old Joani Mitchell song "Sometime you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

So what is sledding like in the old D16?

[Wildman]

I hate north south debates and arguments. My club had one for years, the 402 was the divide, it was ridiculous, we had a north groomer and a south groomer and the club was divided and the members acted like elementary school children fighting in a sand box. We now have groomer1 and groomer 2, and there is a team that runs the club.

This whole thread was started my a miss informed person who has no idea of the inner workings of our federation, doesn't know jack diddly screw about the funding model nor the vision behind it.

I don't believe there is anybody that knows how this current funding model is going to work out, 1 year is not enough time to know, with last years weather, a phenomenal year province wide, gives no solid data as to how the funding model will work. There is a 8.8M dollar surplus. The difference in money between federation payout to districts and combined operation reports between clubs and districts. There was money paid out to districts after the season ended. There is allot of uncertainty on how to manage money since it has all been handed to the districts, we need to figure out how to dispurse money for all operation cost across the whole district. It is not an easy task, obviously with size of the surplus. It will take years to figure this out, how to manage the money, know how long to keep grooming at seasons end, everything. It is not a simple plea for help, and I don't care about your geographical location within the province, we are all in the same boat, we all get funded the same, we all get paid $62.79 per grooming hour and $76.95 per km of trail. The only difference is some districts sell more permits, so their 30% dollar amount is a bit higher.

I believe this system will work for everyone, if the district clubs can get along, and I will reiterate this again, your clubs representation at the district level is paramount. There is no sense beating on a keyboard complaining about the way the federation operates if your club doesn't represent itself properly.

I'm going back to work, I have to leave early to represent my club at a district trail commitee meeting to night, we need to discuss how we are going to manage district money and organize a budget that will work to fund all district clubs. If you get a chance to do this, you should too, you can't solve funding problems at the bar or by pounding on the keyboard, you need to be present to make the difference.

[02Sled]

I hate north south debates and arguments. My club had one for years, the 402 was the divide, it was ridiculous, we had a north groomer and a south groomer and the club was divided and the members acted like elementary school children fighting in a sand box. We now have groomer1 and groomer 2, and there is a team that runs the club.

This whole thread was started my a miss informed person who has no idea of the inner workings of our federation, doesn't know jack diddly screw about the funding model nor the vision behind it.

I don't believe there is anybody that knows how this current funding model is going to work out, 1 year is not enough time to know, with last years weather, a phenomenal year province wide, gives no solid data as to how the funding model will work. There is a 8.8M dollar surplus. The difference in money between federation payout to districts and combined operation reports between clubs and districts. There was money paid out to districts after the season ended. There is allot of uncertainty on how to manage money since it has all been handed to the districts, we need to figure out how to dispurse money for all operation cost across the whole district. It is not an easy task, obviously with size of the surplus. It will take years to figure this out, how to manage the money, know how long to keep grooming at seasons end, everything. It is not a simple plea for help, and I don't care about your geographical location within the province, we are all in the same boat, we all get funded the same, we all get paid $62.79 per grooming hour and $76.95 per km of trail. The only difference is some districts sell more permits, so their 30% dollar amount is a bit higher.

I believe this system will work for everyone, if the district clubs can get along, and I will reiterate this again, your clubs representation at the district level is paramount. There is no sense beating on a keyboard complaining about the way the federation operates if your club doesn't represent itself properly.

I'm going back to work, I have to leave early to represent my club at a district trail commitee meeting to night, we need to discuss how we are going to manage district money and organize a budget that will work to fund all district clubs. If you get a chance to do this, you should too, you can't solve funding problems at the bar or by pounding on the keyboard, you need to be present to make the difference.

well said

[Bucking Pig]

So what is sledding like in the old D16?

It depends...

If you like to ride interconnected groomed trails, you're out of luck.

If you prefer running unplowed roads, pipelines and hydro lines, there's plenty to be had.

I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than me, but I mostly just use my sleds to get into camp, or go fishing or hunting, with the odd pipeline running.

Good luck to all of you trying to keep your system together.  Once a trail (or club, or district) is gone, it is really hard to get it back.

[Sasquatch777]

It depends...

If you like to ride interconnected groomed trails, you're out of luck.

If you prefer running unplowed roads, pipelines and hydro lines, there's plenty to be had.

I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than me, but I mostly just use my sleds to get into camp, or go fishing or hunting, with the odd pipeline running.

Good luck to all of you trying to keep your system together.  Once a trail (or club, or district) is gone, it is really hard to get it back.

 

So true!

[Sasquatch777]

I myself don't see it as simply north south distinction. I see it as those clubs that have a high volume of traffic and similarly a high number of permit buyers and as it seems for almost every club a shortage of volunteers relative to a club which has a low volume of traffic a low number of permit buyers and once again a possibly even greater shortage of volunteers in comparison. When those clubs with that high volume of riders are finding it hard to make ends meet it is equally as hard to tell them to bite the bullet and send a chunk of cash to a club whose trails will see maybe 20 permit carrying sleds on a Saturday when their own will see 300+ sleds on that same day. I am sure there are some that will see even more.

 

I haven't any problem with supporting the clubs with less cash but there does come a limit as to what is affordable and reasonable to expect those clubs to take out of their hard earned permit dollars. This is especially true when those who buy where they ride expect their trails to be in good shape and reasonably so ask why they are in the condition they are. Then you tell them we could do better but we sent some of your money to XYZ club in ABC.

 

 The only reason anyone can relate this to north south is population densities simply manifest more riders in the areas closer to the GTA than they do in the areas that one would call the north.

 

There also SEEMS to be a pervasive sense of entitlement from SOME riders in SOME parts of what one would call the north (the comment has been made by others) that they don't need the OFSC trail permit since the trails are on crown land and therefore they are ENTITLED to ride them without a permit.

 

It has been suggested by some that groomed trails in "the north" are not required. That the people will ride regardless. If the trails were to shut down, what would the impact be. Would people still ride those same routes regardless as some have suggested or would a year without those trails bring out a huge influx of permit buyers and volunteers. Like the old Joani Mitchell song "Sometime you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

 

I always hear about the entitlement thing and it gets old fast. My club does not feel entitled, it feels tired of the South always on the attack but smiles and soldiers on. See we in the North were recruited by the OFSC to join in on this venture. It all sounded good so we joined the OFSC! We still put in the same amount of work we always have, we still uphold our part of the bargain. So the ball is in your (south) court! We are at your (south) mercy!

 

The threat of cutting the apron strings has been told so many times that we are numb to it! It is what it is and will be what it will be! But long ago we learned how to make do with not enough and kept trimming our budget and services accordingly! Something many clubs could and or should follow suit on! I mean we maintain 200 plus miles of trail on less then some clubs spend on groomer operators.

 

The all for one system is loathed in the South and a feed the South only system is talked about by many! Where the north south line would be drawn is a good question?

 

I'm with Wildman and think we have a very good chance of making this work if only everyone would get along. Or we wind up with even more holes in the system and as Bucking pig said repairing them is very hard if not impossible.

 

I wish us all the best of luck this winter with lots of snow in the south and normal snow for us because in the end its snow that will make of break the OFSC! All rest of this argument is pointless without snow!

[Sasquatch777]

So what is sledding like in the old D16?

 

Its not sledding anymore! If 17 closed Manitoba is where I would ride, around here would be done in no time as mother nature reclaims all the trails. I remember the old days of sledding and they sucked! 40 mile day was a big day back then, supporting other towns with tourist dollars did not happen and your sled spent more downtime from breakage!

[Lep]

I myself don't see it as simply north south distinction. I see it as those clubs that have a high volume of traffic and similarly a high number of permit buyers and as it seems for almost every club a shortage of volunteers relative to a club which has a low volume of traffic a low number of permit buyers and once again a possibly even greater shortage of volunteers in comparison. When those clubs with that high volume of riders are finding it hard to make ends meet it is equally as hard to tell them to bite the bullet and send a chunk of cash to a club whose trails will see maybe 20 permit carrying sleds on a Saturday when their own will see 300+ sleds on that same day. I am sure there are some that will see even more.

 

I haven't any problem with supporting the clubs with less cash but there does come a limit as to what is affordable and reasonable to expect those clubs to take out of their hard earned permit dollars. This is especially true when those who buy where they ride expect their trails to be in good shape and reasonably so ask why they are in the condition they are. Then you tell them we could do better but we sent some of your money to XYZ club in ABC.

 

 The only reason anyone can relate this to north south is population densities simply manifest more riders in the areas closer to the GTA than they do in the areas that one would call the north.

 

There also SEEMS to be a pervasive sense of entitlement from SOME riders in SOME parts of what one would call the north (the comment has been made by others) that they don't need the OFSC trail permit since the trails are on crown land and therefore they are ENTITLED to ride them without a permit.

 

It has been suggested by some that groomed trails in "the north" are not required. That the people will ride regardless. If the trails were to shut down, what would the impact be. Would people still ride those same routes regardless as some have suggested or would a year without those trails bring out a huge influx of permit buyers and volunteers. Like the old Joani Mitchell song "Sometime you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

Well here we go again.....where is the #### that say the no compliance and the proof......another figment of your imagation.....there is roughly 217 clubs how many groomers ran dry on fuel last yr?????how many clubs groomers broke and they didnt have the $$$ to fix????

 

The Red carpet area central is just going to have deal with it and the weekend warriers may have to ride some so so trails now and again......think about it....if its the hottest spot in ontario why isnt half the permits brought thru those clubs....Buy where u Ride,,,,,,,we need to look after ONTARIO as a whole.

 

I understand the issues grooming and bodies.....maybe its time to do what Dub done????bodies showed up and permits were brought to some extend.....time to think outside the box and not just stand there with your hand out and cry wolf.......02 not pointing fingers just saying its not all about what happens in central.

[AkronOrange]

I hate north south debates and arguments. My club had one for years, the 402 was the divide, it was ridiculous, we had a north groomer and a south groomer and the club was divided and the members acted like elementary school children fighting in a sand box. We now have groomer1 and groomer 2, and there is a team that runs the club.

This whole thread was started my a miss informed person who has no idea of the inner workings of our federation, doesn't know jack diddly screw about the funding model nor the vision behind it.

I don't believe there is anybody that knows how this current funding model is going to work out, 1 year is not enough time to know, with last years weather, a phenomenal year province wide, gives no solid data as to how the funding model will work. There is a 8.8M dollar surplus. The difference in money between federation payout to districts and combined operation reports between clubs and districts. There was money paid out to districts after the season ended. There is allot of uncertainty on how to manage money since it has all been handed to the districts, we need to figure out how to dispurse money for all operation cost across the whole district. It is not an easy task, obviously with size of the surplus. It will take years to figure this out, how to manage the money, know how long to keep grooming at seasons end, everything. It is not a simple plea for help, and I don't care about your geographical location within the province, we are all in the same boat, we all get funded the same, we all get paid $62.79 per grooming hour and $76.95 per km of trail. The only difference is some districts sell more permits, so their 30% dollar amount is a bit higher.

I believe this system will work for everyone, if the district clubs can get along, and I will reiterate this again, your clubs representation at the district level is paramount. There is no sense beating on a keyboard complaining about the way the federation operates if your club doesn't represent itself properly.

I'm going back to work, I have to leave early to represent my club at a district trail commitee meeting to night, we need to discuss how we are going to manage district money and organize a budget that will work to fund all district clubs. If you get a chance to do this, you should too, you can't solve funding problems at the bar or by pounding on the keyboard, you need to be present to make the difference.

 

Misinformed?  Maybe.  I just want to spend my money on what I want to spend my money.  Seems like the OFSC and Ontario aren't interested in growing the sport.  Also seems like many are turning a blind eye to the real problem and the abuse that exists.  All I hear is a lot of weak political sounding propaganda that supports individual agendas.  "We can't because of this, they won't because of that..."  I really hate excuses, figure it out.  The trails are closing and the system is shrinking; of that I'm sure and one of the few that cares!

[02Sled]

Misinformed?  Maybe.  I just want to spend my money on what I want to spend my money.  Seems like the OFSC and Ontario aren't interested in growing the sport.  Also seems like many are turning a blind eye to the real problem and the abuse that exists.  All I hear is a lot of weak political sounding propaganda that supports individual agendas.  "We can't because of this, they won't because of that..."  I really hate excuses, figure it out.  The trails are closing and the system is shrinking; of that I'm sure and one of the few that cares!

 

If there were more like you that wanted to spend their money on the trails that you want to ride there wouldn't be the problem that there is. The harsh reality is that the total number of permits sold has been diminishing annually. Partially due to the aging demographics. The baby boomers are flushing through the system and are no longer in their prime snowmobiling years for many as they become seniors and retirees on fixed incomes with sometimes tough choices on where they spend that fixed income and perhaps health issues that come into play.

 

With the decreasing revenues it simply becomes harder to sustain what you had before as a trail system and tough choices have to be made by everyone. Everyone would love to grow the sport and that is a challenge. The reality is that the sport seems to be lacking in appeal to a significant portion of the ethnically diverse population of Ontario. We are a diminishing percentage of the population.

 

Put it in the perspective of a home situation analogy. You are struggling to make ends meet. You have enough to keep the heat and the lights on at home and feed your family a basic meal every day except twice a week you can afford a nice meal, and maybe a steak once in a rare while. Your neighbour can keep the heat and lights on for his family but they go hungry twice a week. Many people would give up their nice meal and occasional steak to help out their neighbour so they could eat every day BUT they aren't going to give up so much that they don't eat every day.

 

A lot of clubs are just plain squeaking by on the money they have. They have had to reduce their grooming frequency and are having to constantly repair their old groomer. Then they are asked to take some of the money from their permit buyers riding their trails and give it to another club so they can subsidize their lack of permit buyers.  You can only go so far.

 

Larger numbers of ridership drives higher operating costs. In an area where almost all trails are on private property, landowner concerns where permission can be withdrawn at the drop of a hat some times means you be prepared and have an alternate trail to bypass a contentious area.

 

There isn't a silver bullet. The best solution for those clubs that are lacking in permit sales is for their volunteers to sell the people in that area on the value that permit brings and get them to buy the permit.  

[Nith Valley Sledder]

Misinformed?  Maybe.  I just want to spend my money on what I want to spend my money.  Seems like the OFSC and Ontario aren't interested in growing the sport.  Also seems like many are turning a blind eye to the real problem and the abuse that exists.  All I hear is a lot of weak political sounding propaganda that supports individual agendas.  "We can't because of this, they won't because of that..."  I really hate excuses, figure it out.  The trails are closing and the system is shrinking; of that I'm sure and one of the few that cares!

 

You have to realize the people on here are the overworked, underpaid volunteers that represent their clubs, and to some extent the OFSC (that is another debate) and actually make this sport happen. Please do not group us in with "Ontario". Ontario is a government (and it doesn't really matter which party is in power) that has no real motivation to support snowmobiling. They take millions of tax dollars from the sport while putting very little back in all the while knowing that the OFSC is a self financed organization relying on volunteers to support it. There are a lot of tourism based businesses that also leech off the OFSC volunteer base. Maybe it is going to take some trail systems to close down before the tourism industry and local chambers of commerce realize what they are losing out on and start supporting the OFSC member clubs. They could be a strong political voice supporting us but instead they tend to only look after their own interests. The OFSC clubs have very little political power to make the necessary changes at the provincial/federal level that would get us more funding. The OFSC clubs have implemented a new funding strategy to try to maintain trails province wide but it is still up to the local volunteer base to make it happen on the ground. There is no tax-based pot of gold for us to dip into so we have to make do with what we have.

[Panther340]

Adding to the arguement about "growing the sport" is that another shrinking demographic is the American Tourism that folks like Akron Orange represent.........but one of the primary causes of that shrinking demographic.......... is the American Governments enforcement of passport paperwork needs at the border. That unfortunately has been a hurdle that now is too much a pain in the butt to overcome by many many American citizens. So with that happening (in all sectors of border entertainment or sport) the local riders are going to have more voice than the former long distance touring tourists would of had. So Americans like Akron need to spread the word on his side of the border to neighbors and friends on advantages of getting the paperwork or passports, and also in your voting habits to ask your government to reduce barriers not increase them at the border. That way the OFSC system might have better chance of being a user paid for system that will remain interconnecting many communities in the north too.

[AkronOrange]

I promote snowmobiling in Ontario every chance I get.  I think the OFSC, Ontario and Ontario Tourism are missing a huge opportunity to promote the sport and getting people to visit Ontario.  Regardless of everything that has been written, some people have some money, some people work hard and want to play hard.  The focus should be on how to get them to spend it in Ontario.

 

I also think there should be consideration given to reallocating the funds available. I read here that there is an $8mm surplus, honestly I'm not sure exactly what that means or where it should be spent, but I do believe that some could be spread to help those areas that are struggling.  How is it that there is an $8MM surplus after a season of incredible snowfall?  The longer it sits around, the more likely it will be forgotten about or used for something else.

 

While I'm riding those awesome northern Ontario trails these are some of the thoughts that cross my minds:

• Why are these trails closing?  This is absolutely beautiful, people just don't get it!
• Could districts help one another with keeping trails open?  Why are such lines drawn between districts?
• I can't believe Ontario doesn't recognize the importance of having a trail system. How can they allow this to happen?

It is a sad reality I refuse to accept and that's why I write what I do.  Some things in life just don't make sense; this is one of those.

[Wildbill]

I promote snowmobiling in Ontario every chance I get.  I think the OFSC, Ontario and Ontario Tourism are missing a huge opportunity to promote the sport and getting people to visit Ontario.  Regardless of everything that has been written, some people have some money, some people work hard and want to play hard.  The focus should be on how to get them to spend it in Ontario.

 

I also think there should be consideration given to reallocating the funds available. I read here that there is an $8mm surplus, honestly I'm not sure exactly what that means or where it should be spent, but I do believe that some could be spread to help those areas that are struggling.  How is it that there is an $8MM surplus after a season of incredible snowfall?  The longer it sits around, the more likely it will be forgotten about or used for something else.

 

While I'm riding those awesome northern Ontario trails these are some of the thoughts that cross my minds:

• Why are these trails closing?  This is absolutely beautiful, people just don't get it!
• Could districts help one another with keeping trails open?  Why are such lines drawn between districts?
• I can't believe Ontario doesn't recognize the importance of having a trail system. How can they allow this to happen?

It is a sad reality I refuse to accept and that's why I write what I do.  Some things in life just don't make sense; this is one of those.

where did you read about the surplus? this is news to me!

[AkronOrange]

where did you read about the surplus? this is news to me!

 

Isn't that what Wildman wrote here at 12:59? 

[Wildbill]

Isn't that what Wildman wrote here at 12:59? 

not sure where that exists 

[volunteer2]

not sure where that exists 

Quote 103

[Doogirl69]

1 club, 800hr × $15/hr = $12000 + source deductions, that is a substantial amount of money to go towards repairs or a replacement fund. If clubs can't find volunteer operators that don't wreck equipment then I guess they have to pay them, but IMO it is a weak link that removes money from the snow. Again, this is just my own opinion and my thoughts. I realize I am stuck out in left field and blinded by the light with this one.

 

How many permits does your club sell?

[Wildbill]

Quote 103

I meant the money 

[Wildman]

I meant the money

we where told that at the district FFC information meeting before AGM, it was also on a power point at AGM. It is the difference between total pay out from the fed to PSE and districts and the total of all operation reports. So the money will be spread between clubs and districts.

[Wildbill]

we where told that at the district FFC information meeting before AGM, it was also on a power point at AGM. It is the difference between total pay out from the fed to PSE and districts and the total of all operation reports. So the money will be spread between clubs and districts.

so not at the OFSC itself waiting to be handed out and it likely includes our central self insurance reserve 

[Wildman]

so not at the OFSC itself waiting to be handed out and it likely includes our central self insurance reserve

it was presented as being within 225 organizations, clubs an districts. There where the payments that where sent out after the season, districts may be holding some and working on how to distribute it and if it wasn't complete before the operation reports where submited, it would appear to be in holding. None the less, it shows a surplus, payout versus operation reports.

[Wildbill]

Somehow I think that there is an explanation to this that makes more sense 

[Nith Valley Sledder]

You will likely find if there is $8M out there it resides in the bank accounts of the clubs and districts. How many clubs have groomer funds just waiting for a little more before they spend $150k on a groomer or are sitting with $25k to start the fund? With 25 clubs it won't take long to add up to $8M. A little here and a little there adds up real quick.