2011 OFSC AGM

[Wildbill]

Legaly the only entity the OFSC can be transparent with is the clubs, as they are stake holders, it's up to the clubs to be transparent with their own membership their stake holders, including any info concerning OFSC business. If your local club isn't then someone in that clubs membership has to do something about it. The clubs, OFSC, districts, associations, sledders, volunteers don't write provincial corp laws, the province does that.

We are publicly not for profit information must flow freely. Not all clubs are transparent free flow of information is a good thing.

[Wildbill]

Hey Bill hows summer treating ya ? I was going to stop in up at your place for a visit a couple weeks back while in PS on business, but I was on the bike and wanted to beat expected the rain.

I just get wound when the tin foil hat conspiracy theory's kick in

Summer has been good sorry that you could not stop in.

Freedom of info slaughters the tin hat crap.

[Wildbill]

The Kool-Aid tastes funny

If you don't like what you hear do what I do. Make sure that your voice is heard.

[SlowTouringGuy]

What a complete pile of hogswallow and horsefeathers !!

If the Snowmobiling society wants to alleviate some of the 'moaning and bitching' they do about lack of volunteers then they should encourage as many people as possible to celebrate snowmobiling at the Annual Convention that coincides with the AGM.

Encourage permit holders to attend info sessions. Get them involved. Get them engaged.

This isn't a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It is for all too many clubs and, apparently the OFSC, a tin foil hat reality !

Everytime the public hears an excuse as to why they aren't included it bespeaks to a old boys club. This is BS ! Open up the doors !!!!!!!!

Clubs all over the province moan and bitch and complain about burn out. BUT what do they do to encourage and engage new blood ?? My experience with my club dying was it did nothing except continue with the tin foil hat silence and rejection of new ideas and new blood. It made it difficult for anyone to feel accepted. Sort of like the OFSC not even publishing the AGM date and location. But, with a breath of fresh air, our club is fully transparent. As a result there is a better relationship with the town, with landowners, with members and there are more members willing to contibute in whatever way they find possible. The club is much more healthy, there is a stronger board and there is a more likely succession plan.

And for the comments about what is "legal" for the AGM, quit with your goddamn black and white reaction and think outside the box. Have a Provincial Convention coinciding with the AGM. All permit holders are welcome. They are not delegates. They don't have a vote. They can attend info sessions to help get them engaged in the sport. They attend the social functions. They rub elbows with the volunteers from across the province, catch the fever and get further involved in the sport.

Why are we wasting a fantastic opportunity to get more people involved in helping their clubs ???????????????????

[Nutter]

What a complete pile of hogswallow and horsefeathers !!

If the Snowmobiling society wants to alleviate some of the 'moaning and bitching' they do about lack of volunteers then they should encourage as many people as possible to celebrate snowmobiling at the Annual Convention that coincides with the AGM.

Encourage permit holders to attend info sessions. Get them involved. Get them engaged.

This isn't a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It is for all too many clubs and, apparently the OFSC, a tin foil hat reality !

Everytime the public hears an excuse as to why they aren't included it bespeaks to a old boys club. This is BS ! Open up the doors !!!!!!!!

Clubs all over the province moan and bitch and complain about burn out. BUT what do they do to encourage and engage new blood ?? My experience with my club dying was it did nothing except continue with the tin foil hat silence and rejection of new ideas and new blood. It made it difficult for anyone to feel accepted. Sort of like the OFSC not even publishing the AGM date and location. But, with a breath of fresh air, our club is fully transparent. As a result there is a better relationship with the town, with landowners, with members and there are more members willing to contibute in whatever way they find possible. The club is much more healthy, there is a stronger board and there is a more likely succession plan.

And for the comments about what is "legal" for the AGM, quit with your goddamn black and white reaction and think outside the box. Have a Provincial Convention coinciding with the AGM. All permit holders are welcome. They are not delegates. They don't have a vote. They can attend info sessions to help get them engaged in the sport. They attend the social functions. They rub elbows with the volunteers from across the province, catch the fever and get further involved in the sport.

Why are we wasting a fantastic opportunity to get more people involved in helping their clubs ???????????????????

Hogswallow and horse feathers, God damn black and white reaction ??? Like I said the province writes corp law, not the OFSC, not the clubs, districts or associations. And same as I said for clubs being an "old boys club", the only people that can change that those who want to see it changed, not the OFSC.

IMO AGM isn't the place for the type of get together your thinking of, we already have issues finding a venue big enough to hold those who do attend, and there's a lot that has to get done in a short amount of time. I like the idea of another type of venue for the general public, but isn't that what the OFSC, district, club and association presence at the show is for ? Find a way to fund another venue and present it, it may go over well ?

[SlowTouringGuy]

Hogswallow and horse feathers, God damn black and white reaction ??? Like I said the province writes corp law, not the OFSC, not the clubs, districts or associations. And same as I said for clubs being an "old boys club", the only people that can change that those who want to see it changed, not the OFSC.

IMO AGM isn't the place for the type of get together your thinking of, we already have issues finding a venue big enough to hold those who do attend, and there's a lot that has to get done in a short amount of time. I like the idea of another type of venue for the general public, but isn't that what the OFSC, district, club and association presence at the show is for ? Find a way to fund another venue and present it, it may go over well ?

It is amazing how deaf people can become when they wear tin foil hats.

Listen to suggestions. Be open to new ideas. Think about how things can be done instead of all the reasons things can't be done.

It's the same everytime someone makes a suggestion. Here are all the reasons your suggestion cannot be fulfilled. That is exactly the type of reaction that has prevented so many new members from getting engaged in clubs all across the Province.

I've organized National Conventions so don't give me issues about trying to find venues for a simple Provincial get together. Every time anyone makes any sort of suggestion it is greeted with 'these are the reasons it can't be done'. Why do you think there is a feeling that it is a cloak and dagger society ?? An old boys club? Because of perception. And that perception is strengthened everytime there is resistance to change; resistance to new ideas; resistance to sharing of information.

Companies that are continuing to run in this manner are falling by the wayside. Companies that embrace transparency and full disclosure are creating shareholder value and are productive. The OFSC will die if it continues to perpetuate this antiquated business model. And all of those who are blind and deaf defenders of an antiquated model can moan and be nostalgic about how great things once were.

[Nutter]

It is amazing how deaf people can become when they wear tin foil hats.

Listen to suggestions. Be open to new ideas. Think about how things can be done instead of all the reasons things can't be done.

It's the same everytime someone makes a suggestion. Here are all the reasons your suggestion cannot be fulfilled. That is exactly the type of reaction that has prevented so many new members from getting engaged in clubs all across the Province.

I've organized National Conventions so don't give me issues about trying to find venues for a simple Provincial get together. Every time anyone makes any sort of suggestion it is greeted with 'these are the reasons it can't be done'. Why do you think there is a feeling that it is a cloak and dagger society ?? An old boys club? Because of perception. And that perception is strengthened everytime there is resistance to change; resistance to new ideas; resistance to sharing of information.

Companies that are continuing to run in this manner are falling by the wayside. Companies that embrace transparency and full disclosure are creating shareholder value and are productive. The OFSC will die if it continues to perpetuate this antiquated business model. And all of those who are blind and deaf defenders of an antiquated model can moan and be nostalgic about how great things once were.

So if you feel it's that easy and the right thing to do, why don't you do something about it, just as others do something about they what think is the right way to run things ? A lot of volunteers including myself spend the time to research, write up motions and lobby to gain support for new ideas. Many others sit on the side lines and key board quarterback while bitching and moaning .... this is what keeps things from moving forward. For 40 years the OFSC and it's clubs have heard the same ole same ole the OFSC will die from the arm chair crew, but here we are 40 years later improving year after year ... good thing we have some do'ers to actualy get it done.

[Canuck]

I suspect that those pushing for transparency are attending or, through their prior commitments to the club, could attend in a heartbeat.

What's being suggested is that in this age of 'available information', permit holders be informed that the organization responsible for organized sledding in Ontario is meeting this fall, as they have in years past. Advise all members of the event and indicate how they can assist, inquire or put forth recommendations through their club.

Or, continue as is. Nothing. No communication from sled haul-out to 'Buy your permit by December 1st'. Very effective.

Some posts above suggest that the clubs should be our liaison. How convenient. The same clubs whose links are buried 5 clicks deep on the OFSC website are the scapegoats for not providing information.

[SlowTouringGuy]

So if you feel it's that easy and the right thing to do, why don't you do something about it, just as others do something about they what think is the right way to run things ? A lot of volunteers including myself spend the time to research, write up motions and lobby to gain support for new ideas. Many others sit on the side lines and key board quarterback while bitching and moaning .... this is what keeps things from moving forward. For 40 years the OFSC and it's clubs have heard the same ole same ole the OFSC will die from the arm chair crew, but here we are 40 years later improving year after year ... good thing we have some do'ers to actualy get it done.

I first joined a club in 1968 so don't give me any more holier than thou bullsh*t. Just because I don't march up and down the main street of Gravenhurst in a Trail Patrol vest doesn't mean I've given any less to Snowmobiling than anyone else. But this is the crap that we always hear - a digression, a smokescreen anytime something is suggested. Get back on topic !!

This is not about writing up the goddamn motions and the ridiculous lobbying you throw out everytime there is a suggestion on how to bring the OFSC into the new age. This is simply a suggestion that the convening of snowmobilers from across the Province is an ideal time to recruit new blood. To engage those that are sitting on the fence. To rejuvenate clubs. To get more people involved in the sport. In running the sport. In being more engaged with their clubs.

And, to the extent that people resist new blood and new ideas it only furthers the notion that it is an old boys club that doesn't want to change, isn't interested in new ideas, and wants to carry on business as usual because it is in the best interest of those already enshrined in their cosy roles.

[Nutter]

I first joined a club in 1968 so don't give me any more holier than thou bullsh*t. Just because I don't march up and down the main street of Gravenhurst in a Trail Patrol vest doesn't mean I've given any less to Snowmobiling than anyone else. But this is the crap that we always hear - a digression, a smokescreen anytime something is suggested. Get back on topic !!

This is not about writing up the goddamn motions and the ridiculous lobbying you throw out everytime there is a suggestion on how to bring the OFSC into the new age. This is simply a suggestion that the convening of snowmobilers from across the Province is an ideal time to recruit new blood. To engage those that are sitting on the fence. To rejuvenate clubs. To get more people involved in the sport. In running the sport. In being more engaged with their clubs.

And, to the extent that people resist new blood and new ideas it only furthers the notion that it is an old boys club that doesn't want to change, isn't interested in new ideas, and wants to carry on business as usual because it is in the best interest of those already enshrined in their cosy roles.

Funny but for someone "involved" since 68 you sure are blind to the fact that the OFSC is now full of new blood, lots of new volunteer faces sitting on the BOG, lots of new club, district, association volunteer execs all over the province, lots of new faces at AGM every year, the room for AGM orientation and welcoming newbies is full house each year. Take off the old boys blame game blinders and you'll see it. Better why don't you man up and hrow your hat in the ring for one of those "enshrined in their cosy roles" you speak of ?

[Nutter]

I suspect that those pushing for transparency are attending or, through their prior commitments to the club, could attend in a heartbeat.

What's being suggested is that in this age of 'available information', permit holders be informed that the organization responsible for organized sledding in Ontario is meeting this fall, as they have in years past. Advise all members of the event and indicate how they can assist, inquire or put forth recommendations through their club.

Or, continue as is. Nothing. No communication from sled haul-out to 'Buy your permit by December 1st'. Very effective.

Some posts above suggest that the clubs should be our liaison. How convenient. The same clubs whose links are buried 5 clicks deep on the OFSC website are the scapegoats for not providing information.

Not should, they are the liasion to the permit buyer/membership. Like I said the clubs provide info to their stake holders just as the OFSC does to it's stake holders .... the clubs. If a club is not doing so then it's members should do something about it.

[02Sled]

Indeed it is. And what a sad state of affairs that is.

The OFSC is an organization 20 or more years out of date with the approach they are taking.

Companies learned years ago, especially public companies and non-profits, that the best way to engage stakeholders is to give them as much information as possible about the operations of their business. Keep them out and it breeds mistrust and suspicion. Keep them out and your share price suffers. Your value suffers. In the case of commercial interests, you won't attract investors; in the case of non-profits, you won't attract donations or more volunteers.

And Snowmobile Clubs are crying for more help?? In this thread alone, one guy asks for more information about the AGM and doesn't get a specific answer.

The more shareholders can learn about the operations the more they can become engaged.

Wouldn't more engaged shareholders benefit clubs across the province? Instead of moaning about burn-out clubs could look to gaining new members through transparency.

I devote a great deal of my business life to filing public documents for the company I work for. We file, publicly, the most intimate corporate information because we want our shareholders to be comfortable with the investment decisions they are making.

Why, in contrast, can I not even find the most fundamental information about a bilion dollar corporation that is a non-profit ?? I am a shareholder. Yes, it is available to me. BUT, I have to pursue the most archaic routes to suss out the information I am interested in reading.

MAKING IT DIFFICULT TO FIND INFORMATION IS SOMETHING THAT GOVERNMENTS, THE SEC, AMD THE OSC HAVE DETERMINED IS NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF STAKEHOLDERS.

Look to my club as an example. And my experience personally. I joined my club in 1968 and watched what can happen to a club and may well happen to any organization that operates in a shroud of the old-boy secret handshake manner. Not 5 or so years ago my club, a former Club of the Year, was on the ropes because of the old boy way of doing things. Currently the club is completely transparent. Everything is shared with every permit holder. There is nothing that is 'for someone's eyes only'. This has engendered trust within the membership, has strengthened the relationship between the club and the town and local businesses, the club is stronger and is on the way to becoming Club of the Year again. Stronger, with a succession plan and members that are engaged !

And on the OFSC web site I can't even find mention of the AGM, let alone date and location. Every single permit carrying sledder should be welcome and encouraged to attend. They don't have to be voting attendees. They don't have to be delegates. They don't have to be any fricking thing except WELCOME ! What better way to address the burn out we have in so many clubs? Get more engaged !! It's contagious. Have people rubbing elbows with people that say things like "the best thing in my life is volunteering for my club" and guess what ........................................... ???

You echo the sentiments I feel. I wanted to participate last year. Only even heard about it through other people. Not from the OFSC as it should be. Reality is that if every permit buyer is a shareholder every permit buyer should be notified of the AGM. After calling the OFSC I found the dates and found that it was a Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Unfortunatley I have a job to go to week days. The cost to attend $260.00 even though essentially all of the meals are sponsored by the sled manufacturers and perhaps others. A good friend of mine is the catering manager for Blue Mountain where it was held last year. This would most likely have been a money making venture for the OFSC.

I asked OFSC if I could pay to attend just the Saturday. Answer No. I was told I could attend at no cost. I thought great I will be there however I would be on my own for food and beverage which I could not pay for at the event reagrdless so would have to leave the building to get it elsewhere. I did arrive to find locating a vacant seat at a table a challenge and most likely even tougher had I not had friends who knew where they might ask about a vacant seat. You are told over the phone you can attend that Saturday. Don't expect to be able to sit since seats are only provided for those who have registered and paid the money that you can only do if you are attending the full three days.

If you want participation and that doesn't mean necessarily voting give people the opportunity to register for and attend the portion they are able.

The final dinner I was told some people who opt to not attend actually sell their dinner tickets. Couldn't find anyone doing this so home I went.

I was also told that to ask a question you needed to be a voting delegate otherwise sit there and just listen. I have attended share holders meetings before and if I am a shareholder I have a voice, not just the two representatives of each club. All I need do is attend a true shareholders meeting and I have the right to speak.

I also found it amazing the number of proxy votes held by a paid employee of one of the districts. In any other environment this would be considered a conflict of interest. Someone voting on situations that may have an impact on their employment? Not right! If this an organization of volunteers and a club will not have a delegation there then get another neighbouring club to represent you with a volunteer. Not a district paid employee.

Transparency - baloney! Can it be better - Yes. Is there any move to make it better - No. Can the AGM be held on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday making it more accessable to the shareholders most of whom are not financially independent and work for 2/3 of the AGM - Yes if I can convince the members of my club to have our voting delegates make a motion, and the delegates have to believe in this as well since they don't always follow what the club indicates they want. The delegates may follow their own agenda in contrast to the direction voted by the club. Then the motion is voted on by the old boys club in attendance at the AGM.

I have a better chance of an elephant stampede in my living room in snow storm in July.

If you want to encourage participation in the clubs and have fresh people to replenish the aging demographics of a lot of clubs then make it open and accessable for them to participate and become educated.

I was told if they opened it up to all members (pemrit buyers) they would have a free for all and that would not work. How do billion dollar corporations manage an AGM without it being a free for all? It is open to all shareholders.

I was told they want to keep it quasi hard to know about to avoid anti sled groups from attending. If they are not permit buyers they don't have a right to be there, if they are they do, simple as that.

[02Sled]

Legaly the only entity the OFSC can be transparent with is the clubs, as they are stake holders, it's up to the clubs to be transparent with their own membership their stake holders, including any info concerning OFSC business. If your local club isn't then someone in that clubs membership has to do something about it. The clubs, OFSC, districts, associations, sledders, volunteers don't write provincial corp laws, the province does that.

Nutter... please then educate me. What is the definition of a shareholder in the snowmobiling world? Not a stakeholder but a shareholder. The club is a stakeholder obviously but is not every permit buyer a shareholder and is not the same as in every other corporation a shareholder entitled to attended the AGM. Or is there a very small number of shareholders where each club is a single shareholder.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

Nutter... please then educate me. What is the definition of a shareholder in the snowmobiling world? Not a stakeholder but a shareholder. The club is a stakeholder obviously but is not every permit buyer a shareholder and is not the same as in every other corporation a shareholder entitled to attended the AGM. Or is there a very small number of shareholders where each club is a single shareholder.

Come on folks, cant you see this for what it is?

Nutter is right, the OFSC has set up the permits to be simply a right to use the trail. Thus they do not permit people to be a shareholder. When you join a club you are then a shareholder. Its a neat little loophole that allows the OFSC to be able to do what it wants, govern from the mandate of the clubs but then once people start to ask questions, they(the OFSC) legally cannot provide the individual with that info.

Its simple and legal. For whatever reason it is sad!

Its a shitty little way to curb the amount of interaction from individuals. Now I know Nutter is going to come and paint this post in "OFSC rosey red paint" but thats the long and the short of it.

[sledjunk]

Nutter... please then educate me. What is the definition of a shareholder in the snowmobiling world? Not a stakeholder but a shareholder. The club is a stakeholder obviously but is not every permit buyer a shareholder and is not the same as in every other corporation a shareholder entitled to attended the AGM. Or is there a very small number of shareholders where each club is a single shareholder.

In actual fact, the clubs are the voting shareholders of the OFSC. (The "C" stands for Clubs) As a permit buyer, you may be a member (shareholder) of a club. Permit buyers are also Class C shareholders of the OFSC and as such " shall not be eligible to vote and are not entitled to notice of annual general meetings or special meetings, but may send in written submissions for consideration." (from OFSC Bylaws approved Sept. 2010)

So, as such, we are not entitled to notices of AGM's but that should not mean that we are excluded from the knowledge and awareness of them.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

In actual fact, the clubs are the voting shareholders of the OFSC. (The "C" stands for Clubs) As a permit buyer, you may be a member (shareholder) of a club. Permit buyers are also Class C shareholders of the OFSC and as such " shall not be eligible to vote and are not entitled to notice of annual general meetings or special meetings, but may send in written submissions for consideration." (from OFSC Bylaws approved Sept. 2010)

So, as such, we are not entitled to notices of AGM's but that should not mean that we are excluded from the knowledge and awareness of them.

Read my post above, its a neat little way for the OFSC or the vocal people to not have to divulge info.

On purpose or not its being used?

A simple answer is this, all the clubs have to do is vote for the OFSC to publish all info or divulge when asked and its done. Now ask yourself why that hasnt been done.

[Wildbill]

All of this is bull$#!t!!!!!!!!!!

Questions were asked where and when and they were answered no secrets. I regret having made an of the cuff remark that seems to have started this.

Now that the bunny and the mouse know when and where I look forward to thier attendance.

Contact your clubs and ask thier permission for you to go as non-voting delagates,pay your own way and enjoy.

[blakesnowcrest]

You echo the sentiments I feel. I wanted to participate last year. Only even heard about it through other people. Not from the OFSC as it should be. Reality is that if every permit buyer is a shareholder every permit buyer should be notified of the AGM. After calling the OFSC I found the dates and found that it was a Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Unfortunatley I have a job to go to week days. The cost to attend $260.00 even though essentially all of the meals are sponsored by the sled manufacturers and perhaps others. A good friend of mine is the catering manager for Blue Mountain where it was held last year. This would most likely have been a money making venture for the OFSC.

I asked OFSC if I could pay to attend just the Saturday. Answer No. I was told I could attend at no cost. I thought great I will be there however I would be on my own for food and beverage which I could not pay for at the event reagrdless so would have to leave the building to get it elsewhere. I did arrive to find locating a vacant seat at a table a challenge and most likely even tougher had I not had friends who knew where they might ask about a vacant seat. You are told over the phone you can attend that Saturday. Don't expect to be able to sit since seats are only provided for those who have registered and paid the money that you can only do if you are attending the full three days.

If you want participation and that doesn't mean necessarily voting give people the opportunity to register for and attend the portion they are able.

The final dinner I was told some people who opt to not attend actually sell their dinner tickets. Couldn't find anyone doing this so home I went.

I was also told that to ask a question you needed to be a voting delegate otherwise sit there and just listen. I have attended share holders meetings before and if I am a shareholder I have a voice, not just the two representatives of each club. All I need do is attend a true shareholders meeting and I have the right to speak.

I also found it amazing the number of proxy votes held by a paid employee of one of the districts. In any other environment this would be considered a conflict of interest. Someone voting on situations that may have an impact on their employment? Not right! If this an organization of volunteers and a club will not have a delegation there then get another neighbouring club to represent you with a volunteer. Not a district paid employee.

Transparency - baloney! Can it be better - Yes. Is there any move to make it better - No. Can the AGM be held on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday making it more accessable to the shareholders most of whom are not financially independent and work for 2/3 of the AGM - Yes if I can convince the members of my club to have our voting delegates make a motion, and the delegates have to believe in this as well since they don't always follow what the club indicates they want. The delegates may follow their own agenda in contrast to the direction voted by the club. Then the motion is voted on by the old boys club in attendance at the AGM.

I have a better chance of an elephant stampede in my living room in snow storm in July.

If you want to encourage participation in the clubs and have fresh people to replenish the aging demographics of a lot of clubs then make it open and accessable for them to participate and become educated.

I was told if they opened it up to all members (pemrit buyers) they would have a free for all and that would not work. How do billion dollar corporations manage an AGM without it being a free for all? It is open to all shareholders.

I was told they want to keep it quasi hard to know about to avoid anti sled groups from attending. If they are not permit buyers they don't have a right to be there, if they are they do, simple as that.

Is that even aloud?

[skidooboy]

i think the big picture here is... that we the permit holders, ARE THE OFSC. if there are some that dont think, or beleive that, then there lies the ofsc's biggest obstruction. without permit buying members, you would have no ofsc, no board of govenors, no agm, no funding, no equipment, and NO TRAILS.

AND YES, WE ARE MEMBERS OF THE OFSC. the clubs and districts are our delegates, and our voice but, again, to get newer people in, you should have the meetings open enough to allow the avg sledder in, to learn, and maybe, gain an interest to want to help further, and help make changes. even if they have to pay their own way.

we ALL should have a vote, a say, and know what is going on, be able to offer suggestions and critisizms. i know some say, we need to go through "the club". well, what if you dont see eye to eye on the issues the club, and the ofsc faces??? where does that individual get to be heard? what if you dont like the direction the club, the district, and the ofsc is heading???? if you cant get in to be heard, due to other people eliminating routes of communication, you will always have issues with members thinking there is something going on that isnt right.

if everyone isnt included, or at least offered to be included, there will always be an air of deception.

is there a chain of command? the answer is yes. is it correct or sustainable? the answered is not so clear.

EVERYONE SHOULD KEEP AN OPEN MIND. with the global, information age, things should change and evolve to reflect the current state of affairs for officers, clubs, disctricts, and members ALIKE!

ski

[Wildbill]

i think the big picture here is... that we the permit holders, ARE THE OFSC. if there are some that dont think, or beleive that, then there lies the ofsc's biggest obstruction. without permit buying members, you would have no ofsc, no board of govenors, no agm, no funding, no equipment, and NO TRAILS.

AND YES, WE ARE MEMBERS OF THE OFSC. the clubs and districts are our delegates, and our voice but, again, to get newer people in, you should have the meetings open enough to allow the avg sledder in, to learn, and maybe, gain an interest to want to help further, and help make changes. even if they have to pay their own way.

we ALL should have a vote, a say, and know what is going on, be able to offer suggestions and critisizms. i know some say, we need to go through "the club". well, what if you dont see eye to eye on the issues the club, and the ofsc faces??? where does that individual get to be heard? what if you dont like the direction the club, the district, and the ofsc is heading???? if you cant get in to be heard, due to other people eliminating routes of communication, you will always have issues with members thinking there is something going on that isnt right.

if everyone isnt included, or at least offered to be included, there will always be an air of deception.

is there a chain of command? the answer is yes. is it correct or sustainable? the answered is not so clear.

EVERYONE SHOULD KEEP AN OPEN MIND. with the global, information age, things should change and evolve to reflect the current state of affairs for officers, clubs, disctricts, and members ALIKE!

ski

You DO have a vote at your club. and then your club two votes at the AGM, Can you imagine the havoc of having 80,000. members at agm?

[UsedtoSkidoo]

i think the big picture here is... that we the permit holders, ARE THE OFSC. if there are some that dont think, or beleive that, then there lies the ofsc's biggest obstruction. without permit buying members, you would have no ofsc, no board of govenors, no agm, no funding, no equipment, and NO TRAILS.

AND YES, WE ARE MEMBERS OF THE OFSC. the clubs and districts are our delegates, and our voice but, again, to get newer people in, you should have the meetings open enough to allow the avg sledder in, to learn, and maybe, gain an interest to want to help further, and help make changes. even if they have to pay their own way.

we ALL should have a vote, a say, and know what is going on, be able to offer suggestions and critisizms. i know some say, we need to go through "the club". well, what if you dont see eye to eye on the issues the club, and the ofsc faces??? where does that individual get to be heard? what if you dont like the direction the club, the district, and the ofsc is heading???? if you cant get in to be heard, due to other people eliminating routes of communication, you will always have issues with members thinking there is something going on that isnt right.

if everyone isnt included, or at least offered to be included, there will always be an air of deception.

is there a chain of command? the answer is yes. is it correct or sustainable? the answered is not so clear.

EVERYONE SHOULD KEEP AN OPEN MIND. with the global, information age, things should change and evolve to reflect the current state of affairs for officers, clubs, disctricts, and members ALIKE!

ski

You are correct Ski, but unfortunately the laws here dictate that the OFSC does not have to answer to the common people. The laws state that all info legally has to flow to the clubs and then to the members. Its what I have been saying. That being said to back your post up, one simple vote can rectify that and change the flow of info. If the club's with a mojority vote mandated that the ofsc could allow transparency then all this could and should change. Change for the better!

[skidooboy]

You DO have a vote at your club. and then your club two votes at the AGM, Can you imagine the havoc of having 80,000. members at agm?

Bill, respectfully you are missing the big issue. if you have 100 delegates voting their own beliefs, and own concious.... they are not representing the members, they are representing their own agenda.

say for instance 100 delegates vote to lower the speed limit to 40 km hour, on all ofsc trails... but 50,000 members were against it. you are allowing the views of a few, dictate the rules and actions for the many (which were opposed to the vote in the first place). havoc????? or

politics, and the good ole boy network at it's finest????

food for thought. ski

[Wildbill]

Bill, respectfully you are missing the big issue. if you have 100 delegates voting their own beliefs, and own concious.... they are not representing the members, they are representing their own agenda.

say for instance 100 delegates vote to lower the speed limit to 40 km hour, on all ofsc trails... but 50,000 members were against it. you are allowing the views of a few, dictate the rules and actions for the many (which were opposed to the vote in the first place). havoc????? or

politics, and the good ole boy network at it's finest????

food for thought. ski

That is why our club holds a meeting prior to the AGM to review the agenda and gain input from our directors,as well any member of our club is welcome at any meeting and never in my 20 year history with our club has anyone not been allowed to speak thier minds.

[skidooboy]

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still missing it Bill.

example: I am the club rep that is going to the agm, YOU are a disgruntled club member (that i dont care for) with a negative opinion on a decision the club is taking to the AGM.

do you think i am going to take your opinion to the agm, and give it to the ofsc, or am i going to vote, my own belief???

power corrupts.

individuals cant be heard in a system like this. if everyone is to be heard, everyone should have a say. just like political voting, there will be those that want to be involved, and those that dont. but, that is the individuals decision, not the systems.

ski

[scrummage]

I suppose the AGM operates similarly to Parliament. The delegates from each club are equivalent to the MPs from each riding. One would assume that the OFSC would send out an agenda with any proposed changes to policies allowing enough time so that the member clubs could debate them and give direction to their delegate. The delegate would then vote according to the wishes of (the majority) his/her club members. If your delegate insists on being a loose cannon, get a new delegate.