woody Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 thanks everyone I guess I understood already the contributing factors as to why the trails are all not open.maybe asked out of frustration....sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, woody said: thanks everyone I guess I understood already the contributing factors as to why the trails are all not open.maybe asked out of frustration....sorry! Don't be sorry. So many people just don't understand the challenges and the more that become informed and can let others know the answers the better. Many years ago I would likely have been one of those saying.... lots of snow, why aren't the trails open? Some ask and others complain. There is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadoo Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 2 hours ago, stoney said: I am sure there is someone on here that is in the know and can tell us what the numbers for this year are? The way I am thinking, sales/revenue is likely up....I think the early bird was about the same if not more than last year, and with the early snow & trails that opened early, and after the permit was now full pop, I am sure that got people that were on the fence to spend the full pop ! Never saw last year's numbers. There are still a ton of people who buy in person. Not having that option at ALL is sillyNess. The claim the mto deManded it, which I question. You can negotiate these things and phase things in. Don't know if they are really publisizing sales anymore? And before someone says "join a club" I've been an active member and volunteer at arms length to the exec of my club for many yeas. With how easy it is to DL (and copy) daily permits and the expectation of a free weekend on family day a lot I know are foregoing a seasonal and spinning the wheel on the weekend pass. In a good year this may benefit the ofsc as they spend more on weekends than the seasonal but our winters have not been great recently. Also lots of people having issues with online reaching them and then finding a replacement when they don't get it. Have to deal with a 3rd party furnishing house that doesn't seem to get it. Big charge to ship to the USA as well or via registered maIL. Messed up system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, Canadoo said: Never saw last year's numbers. There are still a ton of people who buy in person. Not having that option at ALL is sillyNess. The claim the mto deManded it, which I question. You can negotiate these things and phase things in. Don't know if they are really publisizing sales anymore? And before someone says "join a club" I've been an active member and volunteer at arms length to the exec of my club for many yeas. With how easy it is to DL (and copy) daily permits and the expectation of a free weekend on family day a lot I know are foregoing a seasonal and spinning the wheel on the weekend pass. In a good year this may benefit the ofsc as they spend more on weekends than the seasonal but our winters have not been great recently. Also lots of people having issues with online reaching them and then finding a replacement when they don't get it. Have to deal with a 3rd party furnishing house that doesn't seem to get it. Big charge to ship to the USA as well or via registered maIL. Messed up system. While I personally believe that there should be a purchase in person option I understand why it has gone the way it has. Too many permits with little of the actual information required on the form being properly completed and captured or illegible. Try getting a license plate for your car or truck without complete and accurate information. Good luck with that. Negotiating with the government. If they make up their mind that they are doing online only that is the way it will be. They do what they want period. This has been phased in. Online sales began a few years ago and people had a choice of how to buy their permit. Now it is fully phased in. As for the numbers, they are reported at the OFSC AGM annually. The clubs can also request the sales for their club and the other clubs in their district. It's useful to know where your club stands, are your numbers going down while others are going up, why? The online sales are easily accessible at the district level with lots of information to the clubs. Each year I request and receive the permit sales from our district administrator. It includes all the information captured during the online sale process. Name, email, whether they are interested in volunteering and whether they give their permission for you to send them email, type of permit and more. Our club has seen a significant increase in sales over the past few years. I haven't seen the post Dec 1 sales yet but suspect there are quite a few encouraged with the early snow we have. If you don't ask you will never know and all I do is ask. We use the email addresses collected to send updates on club activities to our permit buyers. As for the winters not being great recently.... huh. One bad year seems to have tainted your memory. The current winter is shaping up to be FANTASTIC. Admittedly last winter was a disappointment in general but if you were willing to travel there was some excellent riding to be had. The two seasons before that were outstanding. Those two winters were the first in a while where I had to travel north to shovel the snow off the roof. Actually two winters ago a friend went to clear his roof of snow at the cottage. His friend went ahead while he unloaded the ladder from the truck. He heard don't bother with the ladder. The snow had drifted up against the wall of the cottage and was hard enough to walk up and simply step onto the rood. The focus is on sales to Ontario riders. While not dismissing those from the US their numbers are relatively small and with the current exchange rate they are getting a heck of a bargain. The $180 OFSC permit is only $136.20 US. $20 shipping is only $15.13 and the $7.50 processing is only $5.68 so the total cost for an American to ride our trails is $207.50 CDN or the real bargain of $157.01 US if they buy early. If they buy anything other than a full season they print it at home. I'm not shedding any tears for them. The system has worked flawlessly for me since online became available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Issue with in person option was wastaged I believe. Someone said it use to cost upwards of $10 per permit. So to have permits sitting around at vendors to be sold and then thrown out was a big issue. So far I think online system is getting better. Can order two day passes online and go ride right away. Something needs to be done about the photo-shopping date issue though. Maybe short term permits like two days and one week should only be sold at vendors. You go in full out a form and dates and they submit it and you get a temporary permit that matches the sticker on your form, like they do far car licenses. How the sticker on your ownership matches serial number on your plate. Should be able to do a similar system for permits. Even if they gave you a card and stamped which dates you paid for and you carry it with you as proof you paid. Could stamp out month date and year and how many days you paid for. Just an idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 There is also no way a club or retailer can sell a permt at the discounted price AFTER the deadline has come and gone, using the online system! So far for me, and others that I personally know that have used it, it has worked without issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Think about how much work has been taken off the shoulders of the club permit person and their helpers. I'm sure they are happy as hell . No more entering data into the computer, chasing to all the permit sales locations, sweating over the possibility of lost or stolen permits out of their control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, stoney said: There is also no way a club or retailer can sell a permt at the discounted price AFTER the deadline has come and gone, using the online system! So far for me, and others that I personally know that have used it, it has worked without issue. That is indeed was a valid concern. Someone would show up at the local sled dealer who also sold permits after Dec 1 and the club hadn't been by yet to pick up the sold permit documents. The guy goes to the counter and asks for the reduced price and the guy behind the counter says sure and sells it a week late at the reduced price. Especially if they are buying a bunch of his merchandise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadoo Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 You are preaching to the choir 02sled. I've bought online since the first year. Always early bird. I know I'm Not everyone though. Not being able to issue on trail or to a new sled buyer is not an ideal situation and I think it will Bite us all in the end. I can't see how A. Reducing enforcement, B.reducing availability of permost will equal C. More permit sales. Bad math in my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Not being able to sell permits trail side is an impediment but not a show stopper in my mind. I have in the past come across those who didn't have the ability to buy a permit trail side. What I did was; - write up a notice of trespass - take pictures of the sled, the rider and the registration numbers... digital is a wonderful thing - give them an email contact - tell them that if they provided proof of a permit purchase within the next 7 days the notice of trespass would be torn up - if not it would be acted upon The online only approach actually facilitates this. They can simply forward their email confirmation of the permit purchase. The very best thing that could be done is to give TP and the penalties for riding without a permit some real teeth. Imagine a $500 fine and having to pay the full $260 price of the permit. Nail a few people with a $760 cost for no permit and word of mouth would travel fast. I think you would see a huge drop in violators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dufftom Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Trade in a used sled for a new one after you put the 17 permit on the old one.Picked up my new sled December 23 rd still fighting with the idiots to get my new permit,lost all respect for the ofsc after this BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 19 minutes ago, Dufftom said: Trade in a used sled for a new one after you put the 17 permit on the old one.Picked up my new sled December 23 rd still fighting with the idiots to get my new permit,lost all respect for the ofsc after this BS. Why fight, just order a new one and you should see it in the mail in 7 days?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, 02Sled said: Not being able to sell permits trail side is an impediment but not a show stopper in my mind. I have in the past come across those who didn't have the ability to buy a permit trail side. What I did was; - write up a notice of trespass - take pictures of the sled, the rider and the registration numbers... digital is a wonderful thing - give them an email contact - tell them that if they provided proof of a permit purchase within the next 7 days the notice of trespass would be torn up - if not it would be acted upon The online only approach actually facilitates this. They can simply forward their email confirmation of the permit purchase. The very best thing that could be done is to give TP and the penalties for riding without a permit some real teeth. Imagine a $500 fine and having to pay the full $260 price of the permit. Nail a few people with a $760 cost for no permit and word of mouth would travel fast. I think you would see a huge drop in violators. In Quebec it is an automatic $540 and possibly more if you are found not in compliance with other regs. They do give you the alternative to purchase a Trail Pass ASAP and produce it in short order. In Quebec their Trail Patrol is very effective due to support by QPP and numerous Trail Patrollers on duty who can write you up and send papers to QPP who mail out the ticket. This is the way it should work - Serious fines, effective Trail Patrol and no mammy pampby attitude like we are left with. The Ontario FSC Trail Patrol and STOP is absolutely and completely ineffective in deterring Freeloaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dufftom Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 24 minutes ago, stoney said: Why fight, just order a new one and you should see it in the mail in 7 days?!?! Took 17 permit off my 08,told to stick it to a white piece of paper and take a picture,also a picture of the paper work that came with it,both sides,fill out a transfer form on there web site,send it to them.They came back and told me to take a closer picture because they could not read it.Got back to them and said zoom it in,there computers do not zoom in and out they told me.Phoned them and said print them off,did that still can't read them.Told me me to send as an attachment,so i scan everything into a pdf and still waiting.why should i buy a new one when i can do this for $15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, stoney said: Why fight, just order a new one and you should see it in the mail in 7 days?!?! Seriously! He's just frustrated. I'm in the same boat as him still waiting for my new piece of paper to go with the permit. I did not put one on my old sled but bought it for that sled and got a new one so now just waiting on the ofsc to finish the paper work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 hours ago, 02Sled said: Not being able to sell permits trail side is an impediment but not a show stopper in my mind. I have in the past come across those who didn't have the ability to buy a permit trail side. What I did was; - write up a notice of trespass - take pictures of the sled, the rider and the registration numbers... digital is a wonderful thing - give them an email contact - tell them that if they provided proof of a permit purchase within the next 7 days the notice of trespass would be torn up - if not it would be acted upon The online only approach actually facilitates this. They can simply forward their email confirmation of the permit purchase. The very best thing that could be done is to give TP and the penalties for riding without a permit some real teeth. Imagine a $500 fine and having to pay the full $260 price of the permit. Nail a few people with a $760 cost for no permit and word of mouth would travel fast. I think you would see a huge drop in violators. I agree a 760 fine will really stop the freeloaders. I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeater466 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 there is a lot of wet spots, wash outs and unfrozen swamps there were limited trails that probably shouldn't be open be patient the weather needs to cooperate and things need to freeze up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Dufftom said: Took 17 permit off my 08,told to stick it to a white piece of paper and take a picture,also a picture of the paper work that came with it,both sides,fill out a transfer form on there web site,send it to them.They came back and told me to take a closer picture because they could not read it.Got back to them and said zoom it in,there computers do not zoom in and out they told me.Phoned them and said print them off,did that still can't read them.Told me me to send as an attachment,so i scan everything into a pdf and still waiting.why should i buy a new one when i can do this for $15. Did not realize that you did not sell the old sled with the permit you had....figured you ordered a new one for the new sled so should be easy and no fight - my bad! Never been through the permit "transfer option", sounds like I should try and avoid it though.... Perhaps a situation that it would be nice to deal with a local club....are you close or able to actually go to the OFSC office in Barrie to sort this out? 2 hours ago, gobills said: Seriously! He's just frustrated. I'm in the same boat as him still waiting for my new piece of paper to go with the permit. I did not put one on my old sled but bought it for that sled and got a new one so now just waiting on the ofsc to finish the paper work. Personally, I would not worry about the transfer of what sled the permit you bought belongs too....just update your info next year when you buy again, if ever questioned, its not as though your story will be fabricated. As far as I know, the paper copy of the permit is not needed, you do not need to carry it with you....I know there is a myth that you are required to have it along with the permit. I have NEVER been asked for the paper portion of the permit on any trail side checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 They have 500 transfers to do right now. Its going to be a bit. I called on Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 19 minutes ago, gobills said: They have 500 transfers to do right now. Its going to be a bit. I called on Thursday. I am now looking at my White paper copy and it actually does state "please carry this proof of purchase with you". I know this discussion has come up before and as far as I recall there are actually no legal requirements to carry it, it is the seasonal pass/sticker on the sled that carries all the weight. On another forum an OPP officer was just stating that he saw many riders on the trails this past weekend with proof of purchase but no seasonal pass, there seems to be significant back log as you stated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadoo Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, gobills said: They have 500 transfers to do right now. Its going to be a bit. I called on Thursday. Use to be 200+ club people to handle those. Thanks technology! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 21 hours ago, 02Sled said: Some do. There are a couple I know of that post no permit no gas. They support the sport and it pays off for them when sledder said with permits opt to buy their gas from there rather than someone else. We support those who support us Name this business and provide me its location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white dragon Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 5 hours ago, zoso said: Name this business and provide me its location. think haliburton forest won't let you unless you have permit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 3 hours ago, zoso said: Name this business and provide me its location. Edgewater has had a sign at the fuel pump for years that said no permit, no fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 There was a sign at the pumps in or near Dunchurch no permit no gas as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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