steve c Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Nothing but the cheap gas for my sled. 13 years old now and not a single engine/fuel problem. Just about everything else has been replaced though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinental couch Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 At the risk of being sued for slander, it is not the one on Memorial Avenue by McDonald's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinental couch Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 1 hour ago, revrnd said: Suncor owns Petrocan, any Sunoco stations were rebranded to Petrocan after the merger. I recall the high octane Sunoco blends openly advertising the ethanol amounts on the pumps. This was before the province mandated the blends. Endicott Fuels in Ptbo, an Ultramar fuel distributor sells ethanol free 91. I used to purchase my premium there until I knew the Shell in Apsley had ethanol free fuel. Saved the PITA of lugging 5 gallon cans back & forth to Oshawa. Is E85 sold anywhere in Ontario? At the risk of being sued for slander, it is not the one on Memorial Avenue by McDonald's. I understand there is an E85 store deep in southern Ontario but that did not come from a credible source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 5 hours ago, Crow said: Have always ran premium in my 900 without issue........so far. What problems have you found that is caused by premium? Anytime we get a unit that doesn't start well or idle properly when cold it's usually the fuel ... not always, but sometimes. 91 octane burns colder than 87, thus timing is set to a more advanced setting, so by the time the fuel mixture ignites and causes a bang, the piston is in the proper position. In an 87 rated unit, the timing is generally set to a more retard position because the bang is quicker. Put your colder burning 91 in a 87 unit and you get your bang too late in the cycle, when the piston is already going back down ... so you don't get the right amount of power per bang, not as much heat because the piston is too far away, the burn is late and smaller, fuel residue remains and causes a damp and sometimes fouled plug. THIS is why your sled starts poorly on 91 in cold temps or when the engine is cold. SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS. Conversely, put your 87 in a premium rated sled, the bang comes quick, and the timing is too advanced for it, so you get potential for preignition (pinging, or "rattling", we hear it sometimes under load), or even worse, detonation (excess heat in the combustion chamber that can't escape, typically making the spark plug electrode glow) making your bang come before the spark plug tells it to.... this causes the famous hole in the piston syndrome. THIS is why BRP insisted on using 91 in the SDI engines back then. Your results may vary, but if you didn't know, this is a very basic explanation of how it works. Take it any way you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hmmm... I think maybe you know your stuff Denis... I appreciate the explanation. It's great when someone like you explains these things in easy to understand terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I've been running 97 in my 2010 and my 2016 with no issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 3 hours ago, catinental couch said: At the risk of being sued for slander, it is not the one on Memorial Avenue by McDonald's. Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 5 hours ago, 02Sled said: Hmmm... I think maybe you know your stuff Denis... I appreciate the explanation. It's great when someone like you explains these things in easy to understand terms. I'm not Really a mechanic ... but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimrr Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 The owner of petro-can in Cobourg on division st. says his 91 is ethanol free. He said he could order ethanol or ethanol free and he gets ethanol free 91 for his station. My 2012 skidoo 1200 says 91 on the gas cap. My manual says to run a minimum of 87. I tend to mix it up and have had no problems the last few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Have they changed the compression ratio in the 1200 over the years...perhaps why the change in fuel requirements or maybe the same fuel cap is used on the 1200 as the 800, so sometimes the wrong cap gets installed on the 1200 models? With technology these days I am sure most, if not all sleds in the last few years have the ability to take out or add timing to compensate for some detonation based on the fuel octane you use. The higher octane requirements in the last few years are due to the higher compression ratio's in the sleds, in order to generate more power.....but that seems to be more common in the 2-smokes, not the 4-strokes. Some factory motors seem to react quite a bit different to the octane in the fuel....I recall my old 700 Firecat always ran best on 87, which is all it called for, but that is/was not always available everywhere you went, so the premium fuel had to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 29 minutes ago, stoney said: With technology these days I am sure most, if not all sleds in the last few years have the ability to take out or add timing to compensate for some detonation based on the fuel octane you use. I recall my old 700 Firecat always ran best on 87, which is all it called for, but that is/was not always available everywhere you went, so the premium fuel had to be used. The same can be said for the reverse. The OEMs should know that premium isn't available everywhere & that sleds are used in these areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 This topic gets covered repeatedly on almost all powersports forums. I thought that I knew what was going on, but now I fear I have been fooled. One of the reasons I bought a '17 900 Blizzard was that big "87" on the fuel cap(as opposed to the "91" on my 600 etec), just like in Viper's photo. Never read the small surrounding print. The damned owner's manual is very clear for all 2017 Skidoo 4 strokes: If using no ethanol fuel, use 87 octane. If using up to 10% ethanol blend, use 91 octane. Never use fuel with more than 10% ethanol. Since, in Ontario, there is no ethanol free 87 gas, then I am instructed to use 91 octane even though there is that big 87 on the cap. This makes no sense to me - either the engine is engineered to operate on 87 octane or 91 octane. I believed in basically Dennis' explanation of octane and its relationship to ignition timing. Now do I believe BRP, or my own gut intuition? If I use ethanol blend gas with 87 octane and blow up the engine, does Skidoo deny the warranty? I can certainly see where they could, and I am PO'd! I am pretty sure that over the last two years I have heard from many Doo 4 stroke owners that they use 87 octane gas. I am cheap and wanted to use it too. Now what? I have three years of warranty. Do I use 91 octane for three years? Can't wait to hear my dealer's answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 39 minutes ago, revrnd said: The same can be said for the reverse. The OEMs should know that premium isn't available everywhere & that sleds are used in these areas. Ahh, but people want more power, so if one manufacture makes more power, so will the others, regardless of the gas issues you may have in your region! Remember, most of the new stuff is tested in the mountains, where gas stations do not exist, you bring your own gas via jerry cans. Cat was the last 800 to finally go to the "HO", once they did, 91 was required....an extra 20 hp, but technically requires 91.... I know people that run only 87 in their Cat 800 HO motor because of where they live, there is no 91 fuel available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Tricky, if you get your fuel from a reputable brand dealer that sees a reasonable amount of clientelle, their fuel won't go bad from sitting. If you're really worried about the fuel station you may be stuck at, put premium as a precaution. Otherwise use regular. Ethanol 87 is totally acceptable and will never be a warranty concern. You couldn't blow up a 900 unless you really tried to on purpose. They're bulletproof. Put 87 in it, add stabilizer if it sits more than a month or for storage, change your oil and grease the suspension at the end of the season. 'Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyTheSnowman Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 19 hours ago, Denis007 said: Anytime we get a unit that doesn't start well or idle properly when cold it's usually the fuel ... not always, but sometimes. 91 octane burns colder than 87, thus timing is set to a more advanced setting, so by the time the fuel mixture ignites and causes a bang, the piston is in the proper position. In an 87 rated unit, the timing is generally set to a more retard position because the bang is quicker. Put your colder burning 91 in a 87 unit and you get your bang too late in the cycle, when the piston is already going back down ... so you don't get the right amount of power per bang, not as much heat because the piston is too far away, the burn is late and smaller, fuel residue remains and causes a damp and sometimes fouled plug. THIS is why your sled starts poorly on 91 in cold temps or when the engine is cold. SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS. Conversely, put your 87 in a premium rated sled, the bang comes quick, and the timing is too advanced for it, so you get potential for preignition (pinging, or "rattling", we hear it sometimes under load), or even worse, detonation (excess heat in the combustion chamber that can't escape, typically making the spark plug electrode glow) making your bang come before the spark plug tells it to.... this causes the famous hole in the piston syndrome. THIS is why BRP insisted on using 91 in the SDI engines back then. Your results may vary, but if you didn't know, this is a very basic explanation of how it works. Take it any way you like. Neither fuel burns any colder or hotter than the other. Your spark plugs determine that. It's how fast it burns. 87 burns faster than 91. More octane slows the burning process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 24 minutes ago, FrostyTheSnowman said: Neither fuel burns any colder or hotter than the other. Your spark plugs determine that. It's how fast it burns. 87 burns faster than 91. More octane slows the burning process. Yup, that's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Denis007 said: Yup, that's correct. And how would you know, your just another guy/tech that has been brainwashed by BRP. Need to get some of that yellow out of your blood, didn't you know that none of the other manufacturers have no issues with fuel and they NEVER blow up. Dam Canadian junk. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 29 minutes ago, soupkids said: And how would you know, your just another guy/tech that has been brainwashed by BRP. Need to get some of that yellow out of your blood, didn't you know that none of the other manufacturers have no issues with fuel and they NEVER blow up. Dam Canadian junk. Funny guy ... lol ! Your Polaris is about due for its required maintenance (replace blown engine) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Denis, pm sent. No need to air dirty laundry online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 34 minutes ago, Denis007 said: Funny guy ... lol ! Your Polaris is about due for its required maintenance (replace blown engine) ... It hasn't reached 6000 kms yet, should be good for another winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 16 hours ago, kimrr said: The owner of petro-can in Cobourg on division st. says his 91 is ethanol free. He said he could order ethanol or ethanol free and he gets ethanol free 91 for his station. He is lying to you, to get your business.. Shell is the only place you can get E-free fuel anywhere South of Sundbury for road use. Right from Peteo-Can's website.. And that is thier Ultra 94, so you know it's a solid bet thier 91 does as well... Quote Ultra 94 contains ethanol. Due to the fact that various fuel grades are blended at the point of sale, most grades of Petro-Canada fuel may now contain up to 10% ethanol. This represents a change from the previous state, where premium fuel was ethanol-free at Petro-Canada. I can say, from personal testing E-free does make a big difference in power and milage, in cars at least. My 2013 Dodge Dart with its 1.4 Turbo called for 91 fuel. Running Shell fuel over Petro-Canada increased my milage by about half a liter per 100kms. And you could feel the power differentances. My dad has a Lincoln MKZ and he says the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 13 hours ago, Denis007 said: Put 87 in it, add stabilizer if it sits more than a month or for storage, change your oil and grease the suspension at the end of the season. 'Nuff said. Thanks Denis. That is exactly the maintenance regimen that I had in mind when I bought this sled. My dealer mentioned regular fuel as selling point, but I was already sold. BTW, as one who's first three sleds were the P brand, I love the friendly banter on American/Canadian durability. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 With all this talk about ethanol and e-free fuel, there's absolutely no question that e-free fuel will give you better power and economy, in whatever grade required for your unit. No questioning that. I guess the question is, is it safe to use, will my unit work properly with ethanol ? I guess the short answer is Yes, with the potential for slightly less power than e-free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyTheSnowman Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Cats C-Tech2 absolutely requires 91 which I also purchase my sled fuel at shell. It also says in the owners manual that 87 can be run if no other fuel is available in emergency. I would say that it's the drivers responsibility to not push the unit to its max all the time until premium can be attained again. I bet most manufacturers sleds can run on any fuel and the knock sensor will do its job and retard timing. I'd just take it easier on my sled if I was in a pinch with only 87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tireless Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 pure- gas . org has a list of stations in Canada and USA that are e-free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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