scrummage Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The Lennox and Addington Ridgerunners will be grooming a new trail this winter E114E. It follows the old Kingston and Pembroke (Kick and Push) rail bed. . Eventually it will rejoin Top E at Sharbot Lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Just what D1 needs, more trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Just what D1 needs, more trails. Actually if you know that area, that trail makes sense and is much needed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Actually if you know that area, that trail makes sense and is much needed.. The last thing we need is new trails unless its a trade off by closing other trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The last thing we need is new trails unless its a trade off by closing other trails.I agree, however that won't happen. But this trail if it does end up opening on the full planed route, it will create a new riding loop in the area and cut a 100km plus off someone's trip trying to get from the south side to the north side of E trail. It will also put a new trail along a lot of houses. Those people who don't sled or gave up because they have to trailer every or just ride the feilds, so of them now will be buying permits to support the system. A new 50km trail lime this one can do so much for adding to our system. These are the types of trails we should be opening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The Lennox and Addington Ridgerunners will be grooming a new trail this winter E114E. It follows the old Kingston and Pembroke (Kick and Push) rail bed. . Eventually it will rejoin Top E at Sharbot Lake. E114E.jpg The northern trails are closing, Ontario as few Km of trail than years previous and those clubs that have an excessive amount of trails leading to basically the same place open new trails.. Congratulations on the addition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The northern trails are closing, Ontario as few Km of trail than years previous and those clubs that have an excessive amount of trails leading to basically the same place open new trails.. Congratulations on the addition! My guess is that new trail will see more traffic in a week then one of the trails you are referring to will see in a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 The northern trails are closing, Ontario as few Km of trail than years previous and those clubs that have an excessive amount of trails leading to basically the same place open new trails.. Congratulations on the addition! Would you drop the damn north vs south thing, I'm starting to feel like some people think we are in some kind of civil war around here. Look I'm sorry the north is in the shape it is, but our sport in general is suffering, people don't have the money to spend the way they did, so they are limiting their recreational time. So that means those who years ago, did all the traveling, and spend weeks up north aren't anymore. They are staying at home, and riding their local trails more. And don't give me the line, the north gets all the snow, because in the east, where this trail is being built, over the last 8 years, has had just as good if not better snow cover. Actually if you want to get right down to it, 2 winters ago, when everyone was in a snow shortage including the north, D1 had crap loads of it, and was about the only place to ride in the whole province. Its time to face facts, the provincial snowmobile trail system is dying. We have already seen D16 close up, and I'm sure there is more to come. As for all these wasted trails you like to speak of, sure there are some, but something else to understand, a lot of these trails are logging roads, and logging runs 365 days year as long as the trucks can get up and down the roads. This is why there is parallel trails in some places, because if they are logging along one track, the club can open up the parallel trail so sleds can still get by and keep the system running. The goal is had to be keep as many people in the sport as you can, and to do this you need trails where most your members ride. Adding this trail is almost like the building of the bridge to PEI, it is going to see a ton of traffic, once complete it will open up a whole area for people to ride, plus a short cut link in to eastern Ontario cottage country. I wouldn't be surprised this brings in to members who can now access their cottage year round, and pays for itself 10 times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Mr. Weese is spot on - my season has begun in District 1 twice, usually right after Christmas, with a few other trips later on. The new trail offers possibilities to those trailering along the 401 - there are two motels with direct access to the E trail at the junction of 401 and 41 at Greater Napanee. (although our OPP friend on FS says the motels are a bit suspect and keep his cop friends in work) I look forward to buying District 1 draw tickets at the Toronto sled show - wish other districts would do something similar as I can only buy one trail pass a year. The whole system is well laid out, well signed, and has many good support businesses. (did get lost around the Vars area a few times though) On the cultural side, the new trail might result in meeting the two gentlemen from Verona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Would you drop the damn north vs south thing, I'm starting to feel like some people think we are in some kind of civil war around here. Look I'm sorry the north is in the shape it is, but our sport in general is suffering, people don't have the money to spend the way they did, so they are limiting their recreational time. So that means those who years ago, did all the traveling, and spend weeks up north aren't anymore. They are staying at home, and riding their local trails more. And don't give me the line, the north gets all the snow, because in the east, where this trail is being built, over the last 8 years, has had just as good if not better snow cover. Actually if you want to get right down to it, 2 winters ago, when everyone was in a snow shortage including the north, D1 had crap loads of it, and was about the only place to ride in the whole province. Its time to face facts, the provincial snowmobile trail system is dying. We have already seen D16 close up, and I'm sure there is more to come. As for all these wasted trails you like to speak of, sure there are some, but something else to understand, a lot of these trails are logging roads, and logging runs 365 days year as long as the trucks can get up and down the roads. This is why there is parallel trails in some places, because if they are logging along one track, the club can open up the parallel trail so sleds can still get by and keep the system running. The goal is had to be keep as many people in the sport as you can, and to do this you need trails where most your members ride. Adding this trail is almost like the building of the bridge to PEI, it is going to see a ton of traffic, once complete it will open up a whole area for people to ride, plus a short cut link in to eastern Ontario cottage country. I wouldn't be surprised this brings in to members who can now access their cottage year round, and pays for itself 10 times over. I think you're missing my point; my problem with the current methods is exemplified by your defeatist attitude. Why not just give up on the whole thing right now? If anything, we have a difference of opinion; I believe the future of the sport is not by building as many trails as possible for those areas where all of the people currently reside. I think that a compromise could be successful if all of us (if I can be so bold) truly wanted it to be. I think the sport can survive if a system remains in place. If it is allowed to shrink, you're right; it will die. Once the infrastructure is gone it will be far too difficult to rebuild. I don't want to see any trails close, I want to be able to ride all of Ontario; currently that is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 It will also put a new trail along a lot of houses. Those people who don't sled or gave up because they have to trailer every or just ride the feilds, so of them now will be buying permits to support the system. Or more people complaining about noise and sledders in general! But hats off to new trails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I think you're missing my point; my problem with the current methods is exemplified by your defeatist attitude. Why not just give up on the whole thing right now? If anything, we have a difference of opinion; I believe the future of the sport is not by building as many trails as possible for those areas where all of the people currently reside. I think that a compromise could be successful if all of us (if I can be so bold) truly wanted it to be. I think the sport can survive if a system remains in place. If it is allowed to shrink, you're right; it will die. Once the infrastructure is gone it will be far too difficult to rebuild. I don't want to see any trails close, I want to be able to ride all of Ontario; currently that is not possible. No actually I see your point, and agree with it somewhat. There are some trails we don't need. When you have 3 and 4 all going the same way just 2 farmers feild over from each other, that is a waste. But you just came out hating on something new so I flamed you the way any good Internet troll would I'm not a defeatist, but this north/south attitude is what will kill the system. It's a feeling that sticks it's head up alot around here, and it's also part of general social make up of Ontario. So I'm sure it sticks it's ugly head up at the club level too. You can't have that mindset in a system like ours. Maybe it's time to look at the system and shut some trails down in some areas. But the problem is on of the OFSC's marketing slogans is the biggest network in the world. Have to break the guys in Barrie of that first, before your going to look at shutting trails to help share the money better. Than its the whole thing of who makes the call to shut trails down with out centering clubs out. My club has 2 main loops and a few feed trails from different points, there isn't a trail you could really close there. Other clubs you might actually be able to shut down half their network who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrummage Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 Thanks Dave. I couldn't understand Doogirl and Akron's attitude. A new trail in eastern Ontario shouldn't affect their clubs' grooming budgets at all. This is great news for the sledders in the area. I've had my sled for 5 years and last winter was the first time L&A 100 and 101 were open. They cross a lot of lakes and swamps so conditions have to be just right. When 115 is completed it will make a nice loop with 100/101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I have spent some time in district 1. It was the only area along with district 6 I was able to ride three years ago, when there was a massive snow shortage across the province. I hope to make it there this winter and try some of the new trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 No actually I see your point, and agree with it somewhat. There are some trails we don't need. When you have 3 and 4 all going the same way just 2 farmers feild over from each other, that is a waste. But you just came out hating on something new so I flamed you the way any good Internet troll would I'm not a defeatist, but this north/south attitude is what will kill the system. It's a feeling that sticks it's head up alot around here, and it's also part of general social make up of Ontario. So I'm sure it sticks it's ugly head up at the club level too. You can't have that mindset in a system like ours. Maybe it's time to look at the system and shut some trails down in some areas. But the problem is on of the OFSC's marketing slogans is the biggest network in the world. Have to break the guys in Barrie of that first, before your going to look at shutting trails to help share the money better. Than its the whole thing of who makes the call to shut trails down with out centering clubs out. My club has 2 main loops and a few feed trails from different points, there isn't a trail you could really close there. Other clubs you might actually be able to shut down half their network who knows. Thanks Dweese. I enjoyed reading your post. It does make sense, there can be two winners without any real losers. I completely agree; it is going to require a completely new approach; that which worked before might not be working today and what is working today will not be working in the future. It is about survival of the sport; when we're all dead and gone Ontario will still have snow.The system must adapt to change. Changes in the economy, change in demographic, change in climate and the adaptation must dynamic; if one area has a surplus because of a lack of a resource, reallocation should be initiated. I think the integrity of a system is paramount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Thanks Dweese. I enjoyed reading your post. It does make sense, there can be two winners without any real losers. I completely agree; it is going to require a completely new approach; that which worked before might not be working today and what is working today will not be working in the future. It is about survival of the sport; when we're all dead and gone Ontario will still have snow.The system must adapt to change. Changes in the economy, change in demographic, change in climate and the adaptation must dynamic; if one area has a surplus because of a lack of a resource, reallocation should be initiated. I think the integrity of a system is paramount. The matrix does move funding around based on grooming hours, trail lengths etc. problem is you can't relocate resources that same season, because of club A has no snow in jan and club B does. What happens if you get a big melt and then club A gets all of the snow and B has nothing left, but gets most of A's resources because they had snow first?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 FFC has changed that, the problem is the district have a new learning curve, they need to manage and distribute the money properly. It is not an easy task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 FFC has changed that, the problem is the district have a new learning curve, they need to manage and distribute the money properly. It is not an easy task. The biggest problem with FFC is that the pot that the money is distributed from is not large enough to cover the true cost of grooming. 300 groomers provincially being replaced every ten years is 30 groomers per year we have not hit that level since the early 2000s so the old system obviously was not working either. More cash inflow is what is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Absolutely correct Bill, another big issue that is either overlooked or ignored is the fact that not only has the revenue gone up, but so has the ridership. More sleds =less $/km of trail/sled. The amount the revenue has gone up looks good on a power point presentation, in the real world we do not have anymore money per sled then we did in 2012/13. Unfortunately smoke and mirrors does not build and maintain trails. If it is another good winter province wide, we are in deep trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The biggest problem with FFC is that the pot that the money is distributed from is not large enough to cover the true cost of grooming. 300 groomers provincially being replaced every ten years is 30 groomers per year we have not hit that level since the early 2000s so the old system obviously was not working either. More cash inflow is what is needed. Don't want to hijack this thread but what is a reasonable service life for a groomer assuming reasonable maintenance is performed? Is it hours based or is it age based? The more I look at my own club/district, the more I am leaning towards an hours based life cycle. Just because its 10 years old does not nessecarily mean its time to replace it. When you look at the published numbers for 2013-2014 there were 123,492 grooming hours logged on 357 grooming units. An average of 346 hours per groomer (and that is in a great year). Using a 10 year replacement cycle would mean less than 3500 hours on the groomer. Does not seem like much use for a piece of industrial equipment that cost in the neighborhood of $225,000. Just wondering of there is another way to be looking at this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 the way I view it, is replace all the wore out, trouble plagued units, then see where you are. It doesn't matter the age or the hours as long as you aren't pouring money into it and it is not broken all the time. We have an 02 er 3 suretrac, and it is an awesome working unit. We maintain it and it rarely lets us down. We are not even considering replacing it right now, in fact we may end up replacing the tracks in the next couple years and keep running it, so long as it doesn't start letting us down. We have a 12 Puma with Soucey's on it and I can see that POS down the road before the suretrac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 the way I view it, is replace all the wore out, trouble plagued units, then see where you are. It doesn't matter the age or the hours as long as you aren't pouring money into it and it is not broken all the time. We have an 02 er 3 suretrac, and it is an awesome working unit. We maintain it and it rarely lets us down. We are not even considering replacing it right now, in fact we may end up replacing the tracks in the next couple years and keep running it, so long as it doesn't start letting us down. We have a 12 Puma with Soucey's on it and I can see that POS down the road before the suretrac. How many hours on the Suretrac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 How many hours on the Suretrac? I don't think Wildman should answer you because I'm pretty sure you are just hoping to here a low number so you can throw another barb at the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Thanks Dave. I couldn't understand Doogirl and Akron's attitude. A new trail in eastern Ontario shouldn't affect their clubs' grooming budgets at all. This is great news for the sledders in the area. I've had my sled for 5 years and last winter was the first time L&A 100 and 101 were open. They cross a lot of lakes and swamps so conditions have to be just right. When 115 is completed it will make a nice loop with 100/101. You are wrong. The new trail sucks more money out of the entire system. They will get $70+ for the 50km = $3,500 + over $60 per hour to groom it. So 10 hours a week X say 8 weeks = 80 hours @ $60+ = over $5,000. So this new trail will take out over $8,000 from the system. Can you imagine if each club did this on their own? This is $8,000 less funds that goes into the District equalization payments for the Province. The only way a club should be able to add trails to the system without deleting the same amount is to get approval from the leaders of the OFSC, the Governors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I don't think Wildman should answer you because I'm pretty sure you are just hoping to here a low number so you can throw another barb at the south. BINGO, we have a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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