Will the OFSC allow this

[FreezerBurnt]

Kenora pursuing MN and MB reciprocity.

Council passes snowmobile permit reciprocity bylaw
By Reg Clayton, Reg Clayton, Kenora Daiy Miner & News
Friday, September 20, 2013 2:00:54 EDT PM

City council is pursuing reciprocity agreements with Manitoba and Minnesota to honour each jurisdiction’s snowmobile trail permits as a way to increase winter tourism. File Photo/Miner and News

City council isn’t wasting any time on a new winter tourism initiative. Council approved a bylaw to pursue snowmobile trail permit reciprocal agreements involving Kenora’s Sunset Trail Riders and snowmobile clubs in Manitoba and Minnesota.

The plan is to encourage more cross-border travel and tourism by visiting snowmobilers. Each jurisdiction would recognize the trail permits of the other without requiring the payment of additional fees to ride on groomed trails maintained by provincial and state snowmobile clubs.

Council passed a bylaw encouraging other districts to support the snowmobile trail permit reciprocity agreement at its regular monthly meeting, Tuesday, Sept. 17.

Mayor Dave Canfield related the positive responses to the concept in recent discussions with Premier Kathleen Wynne and Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger. The mayor noted Canada’s representative in the Upper Midwest U.S., Consul General Jamshed Merchant, is also promoting the proposal in Minnesota. Canfield added that Ontario Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Glen Murray also supports of the plan.

In response to questions from Councillors Sharon Smith and Charito Gallivan regarding the involvement of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) in the initiative, the mayor was not receptive.

“If it goes to the OFSC, they will shoot it down,” Canfield said. “It’s not an OFSC issue, it’s a Ministry of Transportation issue. We’ve fought for it for years and now we’re dealing government to government and let the governments deal with it.”

Kenora city council has long advocated for provincial action to address the high cost of snowmobile trail maintenance through allocation of a portion of provincial snowmobile registration fees to local clubs and volunteers responsible for clearing, marking and grooming the provincial trail network rather than the OFSC model of requiring riders to purchase expensive seasonal memberships and visitor permits from member clubs.

Reg.Clayton@sunmedia.ca

 

I doubt Southern Ontario will allow this IMO as you would see places on the Quebec border wanting the same

 

[Faceman]

If Kenora wants to pony up and BUY all of the invited riders from Man and Min permits , that works for me! God I'm narrow minded.

[dweese]

The OFSC will do what ever the MTO tells it to do..... However that said, this is an intresting one. I can see the city's idea with helping to increase tourism, but if something like this was to be done. There would have to be some sort of limitations put on the area the out of province permits could be used.

As well there is the issue, where locals in the area could now just play the paperwork game and license their sled out of province but only ride Ontario at a much cheaper permit price.

I think the better way would be to, give out of province riders a discount on the OFSC pass, when they show proof of a vaild permit for their local state or province.

[revrnd]

Isn't the OFSC more or less a lost cause in that area? If there are no OFSC trails in the area, is a OFSC trail permit req'd? I thought all you need to ride a snowmobile in Ontario legally on non-OFSC trails was valid registration & insurance? 

[Sasquatch777]

Isn't the OFSC more or less a lost cause in that area? If there are no OFSC trails in the area, is a OFSC trail permit req'd? I thought all you need to ride a snowmobile in Ontario legally on non-OFSC trails was valid registration & insurance? 

 

District 17 is alive and well! Its 16 that is mostly closed! Take a look at the interactive map!

 

What the council does has little to do with the S.T.R Club or the OFSC. In the past the Kenora Council in thier wisdom passed a bylaw alowing sleds to run in the city without permits. Of course the S.T.R. pulled the signage and stopped grooming the trails. This turned Kenora into a nightmare for non residents to get through! So the STR created a bypass around Kenora and gave access to fuel at Reddens! I would say the the Kenora council did more to hurt Kenora tourism then help it with that bylaw! It looks as if the council has relented and let the STR back in to the city limits as the trail is open again.

 

As far as Vag Tag lobbying goes I don't remember the council being in agreement with that back when I had anything to do with it but if they are on board now then great.

 

I'd love a reciprocity with Manitoba but the logistics are huge. How Manitoba and Saskatchewan do it I do not know but there is a high level of government involment! I know the OFSC is against it, Kenora has been down this road with them once before. The Kenora council the STR and the OFSC have bumped heads in the past. There is a history! Enough to write many more paragraphs on!

 

When the STR and the OFSC clamped down on the riders all hell broke loose because Kenora is Manitoba's playground and Minnisota's as well, huge cottage industry there! Now as I said I'm all for a reciprocity but doing it without the OFSC is not going to happen! The MTO can't force the OFSC into one that I can see without the taking over the liability! The OFSC does have the option to pull support! To me it looks like kenora is sabre rattling for effect! What Kenora passes in their city has no influence on the OFSC or the MTO. Manitoba and Minnisota can lobby for it but again liability is an issue!

 

Interesting to see what comes out of it!

[Canuck]

Thanks for the info from the north. It sheds some light on the pressures facing the District.

 

I wonder if the new permit price will entice neighbours from other jurisdictions to buy early. Not a $17 pass Minnesotans are used to, but maybe ? (who am I kidding? lol Big leap from $17 to $180). 

 

And I suppose that Manitobans paying $125 / yr for a permit have an issue buying a second (Ontario) permit.

 

Tough issues in northern Ontario.

[DWIGHT RX]

This article came to light on Saturday morning at the the AGM.  I am not sure of the data for permits sold in the Kenora catchment area however, District 17 this year under the FFC will receive just under $300,000 of OFSC permit revenue and equalization payments.  Last year there were less than 1200 seasonal and classic(73) permits sold district wide.  I hope that wiser minds prevail and this initiative by the Kenora council fails. Hopefully the OFSC will weigh in on tis topic.

[Domino]

How does the City believe it has the right to do this without the OFSC?  If they are allowing them to run the city streets, that's one thing, but the City does not have the authority to allow use of the OFSC trails.  It will certainly fail if the OFSC gets involved, because its just a dumb idea.

[Sasquatch777]

Again this is not the S.T.R. (local club) asking for this. Its the Kenora council egged on by the Mayor. Reason of course it the fact that there are a few thousand cottage country Manitobans and Minnisotans who holiday in the area. Plus of course all those who want to visit. Huge dollar influx that of course can bend the Mayors and councils ear. If the Coucil wants to get the three government talking and trying to work out a way to make reciprocricy work then let them.

 

The last time the council bashed heads with the S.T.R. /OFSC was when they passed a bylaw allowing all sleds free movement in the city without passes. They figured that the STR would continue to groom the trails in the city and where pissed when the STR shut down city wide and removed signage. Somehow they thought that the STR would carry on status quo. The council of course would not groom it themselves or sign it they figured the OFSC would be responsible for it. This backfired on the council and they had out of town sleds running all over the place lost and the bypass then diverted sled traffic around the city doing more to hurt, rather then help the tourism they craved. So I would say this time they are trying a different approach.

 

Now its funny that they and I quote them

 

City council is pursuing reciprocity agreements with Manitoba and Minnesota to honour each jurisdiction’s snowmobile trail permits as a way to increase winter tourism. File Photo/Miner and News

 

When did the Kenora council sell and maintain a trail system? They say that they are and again I quote bargining for the STR.

 

City council isn’t wasting any time on a new winter tourism initiative. Council approved a bylaw to pursue snowmobile trail permit reciprocal agreements involving Kenora’s Sunset Trail Riders and snowmobile clubs in Manitoba and Minnesota.

 

Now here is part of a quote from a STR volunteer and part of the spearhead for val tag permits and I agree with him. Full disscusion here

 

 

 

 

Snowmobile trails and the people who set it up, take it down, maintain it, get ALL of the monetary funding from the OFSC/riders who buy trail passes. Restaurants, hotels and the like get all their monetary funding from customers. What do you think they - restaurants, hotels and the like would say if we went to them tomorrow and said "we would like you to lower your rates, charges for food on par with Manitoba and Minnesota and let us use your staff to set up the trails a lot quicker so that we could sell more trail passes? They'd laugh you off the face of the planet.

Reciprocity is not going to happen just to STR/Kenora or maybe just District #17. It would be all of Ontario or none of Ontario, just like Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

Some time ago, (three years), the STR spearheaded that snow pass monies be collected through the registration program. That would have put more OPP on the trail as trail passes would have been a part of government law. Kenora, OFSC and NWOSTA shot it down, as well as the Eastern clubs. Then, and only "maybe", would we get some benefit to the clubs as we might then have a viable reciprocity program

[FreezerBurnt]

Thanks for the info from the north. It sheds some light on the pressures facing the District.

 

I wonder if the new permit price will entice neighbours from other jurisdictions to buy early. Not a $17 pass Minnesotans are used to, but maybe ? (who am I kidding? lol Big leap from $17 to $180). 

 

And I suppose that Manitobans paying $125 / yr for a permit have an issue buying a second (Ontario) permit.

 

Tough issues in northern Ontario.

 

 

40% of the OFSC pass sales for Kenora are bought from Manitobans

 

If this was to pass, STR(Kenora club) would lose out big time as why would someone buy 2 permits when all they would have to do is buy a $135 SnoMan permit vs a $180-260 OFSC pass

 

Looks like a city council/business chamber out of touch with the local club and only looking at itself

[Viperules700]

If Kenora wants to pony up and BUY all of the invited riders from Man and Min permits , that works for me! God I'm narrow minded.

I would love to see a Quebec Ontario agreement

Signed.

The bottom line is you don't need new car plates everytime you enter a new province or state! I like the thought.

[Classic]

I would love to see a Quebec Ontario agreement

Signed.

The bottom line is you don't need new car plates everytime you enter a new province or state! I like the thought.

We had it once. Didn't work. Not enough people bought into it

[FreezerBurnt]

I would love to see a Quebec Ontario agreement

Signed.

The bottom line is you don't need new car plates everytime you enter a new province or state! I like the thought.

 

 

As mentioned every Provincial,State snowmobile org gets funded in different ways, insurance for the orgs are also different

 

The guys that live say Kingston, Niagara have NY, then you got guys in Ottawa, North Bay, New Liskeard have Quebec, then you have others in Sault Ste Marie,Sarnia have Michigan near by and as mentions Kenora , Rainy River have Minnesota/Manitoba

 

It would be a can of worms to open no doubt

[Sasquatch777]

The thing is until Ontario and Manitoba both go to a Val Tag permit like Saskatchewan reciprocity is not going to happen. Liability issuses need to be addressed on the Government level along with the Val Tags. Like it or not more government involvment is needed for any recoprocity to work. If Kenora wants to get the top levels of government talking to one another then great but talk is cheap! What Kenora is asking for in the STR area is not going to happen. It has to be Ontario wide!

 

I hope that Val Tags become the way to have an all for one system Canada wide. Its the major stumbling block to a Cross Canada trail system just like our highways have.

 

I buy a Manitoba pass every year and can sled from my door step all the way into Saskatchewan in three days. So a week run can see me ride three provinces. Val Tag permits first and then Recipocity. It what I will continue to ask for but one step at a time.

[FreezerBurnt]

The thing is until Ontario and Manitoba both go to a Val Tag permit like Saskatchewan reciprocity is not going to happen. Liability issuses need to be addressed on the Government level along with the Val Tags. Like it or not more government involvment is needed for any recoprocity to work. If Kenora wants to get the top levels of government talking to one another then great but talk is cheap! What Kenora is asking for in the STR area is not going to happen. It has to be Ontario wide!

 

I hope that Val Tags become the way to have an all for one system Canada wide. Its the major stumbling block to a Cross Canada trail system just like our highways have.

 

I buy a Manitoba pass every year and can sled from my door step all the way into Saskatchewan in three days. So a week run can see me ride three provinces. Val Tag permits first and then Reciprocity. It what I will continue to ask for but one step at a time.

 

 

problem though is the price difference between jurisdiction

 

STR in Kenora get 40% of its sales from Manitoba riders

 

Now if you allow reciprocity where would STR get permit sales?

 

In the end $180-260 is cheap for what you get for riding in Ontario, same goes for the $135 here

[skidooboy]

never going to happen, too many logistical issues, especially interstate, interprovincial funding. everyone would buy the cheapest registration or permit, and ride whereever they chose to. the only ones losing out will be the clubs losing funding to thoise cheaper entities, and then trying to uphold their current systems and grooming practices (with less funding).

 

if each state or provincial govt wanted to send funds to the other(s) for their uses (again, never going to happen), then you might have possible reciprocity. Ski

[02Sled]

never going to happen, too many logistical issues, especially interstate, interprovincial funding. everyone would buy the cheapest registration or permit, and ride whereever they chose to. the only ones losing out will be the clubs losing funding to thoise cheaper entities, and then trying to uphold their current systems and grooming practices (with less funding).

 

if each state or provincial govt wanted to send funds to the other(s) for their uses (again, never going to happen), then you might have possible reciprocity. Ski

Or you can only buy a permit based on your residency if they choose to allow reciprocity. Live in Ont. have an Ont. drivers licence and address buy Ontario. Live in Michigan buy Michigan

[FreezerBurnt]

Or you can only buy a permit based on your residency if they choose to allow reciprocity. Live in Ont. have an Ont. drivers licence and address buy Ontario. Live in Michigan buy Michigan

 

 

Problem as mentioned before 40% of Kenora's sales are to Manitobans, Kenora area club would lose it big time if you go by license and address

 

Kenora is what Muskoka is to Toronto but for Winnipeg

[Sasquatch777]

problem though is the price difference between jurisdiction

 

STR in Kenora get 40% of its sales from Manitoba riders

 

Now if you allow reciprocity where would STR get permit sales?

 

In the end $180-260 is cheap for what you get for riding in Ontario, same goes for the $135 here

Again Man and ON Val Tag permits end the problem! Reciprocity can not happen till that does! All sledders pay all sledders play. Quite simple really! Those that want reciprocity have to work on that first.

[FreezerBurnt]

Again Man and ON Val Tag permits end the problem! Reciprocity can not happen till that does! All sledders pay all sledders play. Quite simple really! Those that want reciprocity have to work on that first.

 

 

How can that end the problem when 1/3 of the sleds riding in Kenora are not from Ontario which would supply the $$$ for the trails. the 1/3 already pay the OFSC to ride the trails, if they don't have to pay due to a val tag, where does the lost revenue come from.

 

+ if its just a val tag issue there would be a lot more Manitoba sleds in Kenora, many don't go based on having to get another permit

[skidooboy]

Reciprocity can not happen until every state and provinicial govt budgets and sends money to the others states, for the use of their trails. this is not like an interstate road system, where fuel taxes help pay for the majority of the maintainence.

 

we cant keep all our trails open now, what are you going to do when EVERY TOURIST, FROM EVERYWHERE ELSE BUT ONTARIO, comes to ontario to ride but, doesnt pay an extra dime for a permit (weather the valtag link happens or not)? it wont make a difference, unless the govts of other states/provinces fill the loss with substitute dollars from their systems. (AGAIN... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN).

 

i would like to actually see permit figures from ontarios out of province counts. i bet it would be an eye opener. manitoba, minnesota, wisconsin, michigan, ohio, illinois, indiana, pennsylvania, new york, NJ, all of the new england states, and quebec AND MORE.  it's not hundreds of people, it would be thousands. lots of lost revenue for the ofsc clubs and districts. Ski

[Sasquatch777]

How can that end the problem when 1/3 of the sleds riding in Kenora are not from Ontario which would supply the $$$ for the trails. the 1/3 already pay the OFSC to ride the trails, if they don't have to pay due to a val tag, where does the lost revenue come from.

 

+ if its just a val tag issue there would be a lot more Manitoba sleds in Kenora, many don't go based on having to get another permit

 

Because you are not thinking of all the Ontario sleds using the trails without a permit. The math was done years ago when the STR was tring to get the OFSC on board with Val Tag permits. The Val tags at an estimated 80 dollars would bring in more then the passes at that time at 180. I know in our area there are over 2,000 sleds registered but our 900 passes a year have fallen to under 200 as the price of the permit rose. I remember the Math done for all of District 17 at the time and like I said 80 bucks was money ahead. Now it would be a bit more maybe!

 

In a day in Kenora I have seen a huge amount of Ontario sleds with no passes. They zip all over the place thumbing their noses at the STR and the OFSC. I have talked to many of these and they say they will not pay 160 to 210 (as the years went by that I rode Kenora) or late 260 (now ) dollars when they can ride for free. They make up every excuse in the books but basicly they will take the chance of not getting caught. Like one guy said he has rode for so many years now for free that if he gets caught big deal. its only 200 bucks and only if he gets caught on private property he will take the risk. These are not a few people I have pulled up to the pumps and the unpermited riders outnumber the permited ones. Most won't talk but some will tell their reasons!

 

There is a history in Kenora that kinda ended like this. A huge part of the club split away and formed an informal club of their own. I talked with a group of them at Halleys camp one time. Remember Kenora themsleves siding with non permited riders within their borders. Some have since came back to the STR. But the retoric that ran down the STR and the OFSC is alive and well. The STR would have more money or as much with a Val Tag system and the Manitoba riders under a recipocity then they do now. Remember it was they that where lobbying for it!

 

A reciprocity with Manitoba and Minnesota under the current system would kill them as toban has said! Now how much a reciprocity with Ontario would hurt Manitoba I don't know but I do know a lot of riders that buy Manitoba passes so in Manitoba's best interest a Val tag system for them would be the good idea. They have problems with unpermitted sleds on the trails same as us so win win!

[Viperules700]

I love the idea's here, but none of them make any financial sense. Bottom line insurance and taxes are killing us here in Ontario! No end in sight. We need to sell more passes throughout Ontario, to keep what we have now. I just hope passes sell well this fall.

[Panther340]

Now we see some of the real reasons the Kenora area OFSC club folks are so gung ho about val tag..........it looks like they pizzed off a few of the non OFSC snow machine owners a few years ago (I would love to hear their side of the story not just sasquatches version) but I suspect like other areas of Northern Ontario it was partially because OFSC tried to represent all riders ans took over crown land trails and summer roads that were already established and used by others ....and then they had those trails taken away and asked to pay to use............so problem festered thru the years........now retiribution time has come and clubs like  Kenora OFSC see way to get back at them and push more expensive val tags on them and steal from the non member riders. 

Lets finally admit it you want your product that your trying to sell be paid for by non users fo your product....it is not much different than a few years ago and ontario taxpayers  being forced to subsidize the car buyer that is buying a Prius or a Volt by as much as $4000 subsidy. I always laughed at that an I am sure many here were not happy with that subsidy. Admit it the freeloaders is the least of  your worries, your product got too expensive and tourism doallrs and disposable income and econmy messed it for OFSC that got too big too quick in last decade and took on too much trails etc etc. Now you ran out of ideas and are chasing others to subisideze you and chaing other provinces too

[Viperules700]

The electric car rebate is up to 10,000k, depending on the model. You also get free green license plates and there is no license sticker fee either. I am going to have a leaf as soon as I can find room in my drive way.