Mossy Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I could not imagine sitting at home, complaining about no snow, and not riding, while other areas have snow. Why bother being in the sport then. Always going to be complainers, thats for sure. Makes you wonder if they are truly sledders or not. Not everyone has a trailer. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 all this whole thing will do is take money off the snow (less income). Face it, you give people the option of a less expensive permit, they will buy it, no matter if they ride all the regions, zones er whatever u want to call them. We can't successfully enforce permit compliance now. All this proposal will do is take more money away from maintenance and grooming and put it towards enforcement that doesn't work and never will. This isn't science, wake up. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if 210 bux is going to stop someone from sledding, they can't afford it. $210 wouldn't support 2 full days of sledding....if you actually ride the damn thing, it most certainly wouldn't support 3 partial days of pissin around. If this system was implemented, I don't care how much they get from val tags,it will fail faster than if they leave it the way it is. Face it, the more the Ontario Government pisses our money away, the more things are gonna cost, the less disposable income we are gonna have. The federation is gonna have to keep doing what they are doing already, quit sending money to clubs that don't meet the guidelines, they have been set for a reason, you must have a functioning club to be a member club of the federation, turn in all your paperwork on time. I think they need to evaluate on a club by club basis, the permit sale portion, and that can be done in a number of fair ways as long as all the other guidelines are met. Give the gps monitoring system a chance, ya,it seems to be somewhat of a screw up, but there are really 2 features and they are both equally important. Safety and a true way of monitoring grooming hours. I believe this is the single biggest way to alter the matrix in a clubs favour. If a person understands the matrix well, they know how many grooming hours will give them there best matrix return, and before there was monitoring of actual groomer activity, the only thing to go by was the hour meter. That will all stop now, and that will help with money going where it really needs to go. jmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 all this whole thing will do is take money off the snow (less income). Face it, you give people the option of a less expensive permit, they will buy it, no matter if they ride all the regions, zones er whatever u want to call them. We can't successfully enforce permit compliance now. All this proposal will do is take more money away from maintenance and grooming and put it towards enforcement that doesn't work and never will. This isn't science, wake up. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if 210 bux is going to stop someone from sledding, they can't afford it. $210 wouldn't support 2 full days of sledding....if you actually ride the damn thing, it most certainly wouldn't support 3 partial days of pissin around. If this system was implemented, I don't care how much they get from val tags,it will fail faster than if they leave it the way it is. Face it, the more the Ontario Government pisses our money away, the more things are gonna cost, the less disposable income we are gonna have. The federation is gonna have to keep doing what they are doing already, quit sending money to clubs that don't meet the guidelines, they have been set for a reason, you must have a functioning club to be a member club of the federation, turn in all your paperwork on time. I think they need to evaluate on a club by club basis, the permit sale portion, and that can be done in a number of fair ways as long as all the other guidelines are met. Give the gps monitoring system a chance, ya,it seems to be somewhat of a screw up, but there are really 2 features and they are both equally important. Safety and a true way of monitoring grooming hours. I believe this is the single biggest way to alter the matrix in a clubs favour. If a person understands the matrix well, they know how many grooming hours will give them there best matrix return, and before there was monitoring of actual groomer activity, the only thing to go by was the hour meter. That will all stop now, and that will help with money going where it really needs to go. jmo One the bold.........How true. Maybe this is why the huge loss of volunteers in the North recently? The "system" cant be messed with for profit. The GPS units were put in to put a stop to groomers idling for hours and it looks like it has worked. I'm sure there will be more clubs going to fold because of this which is good and bad. Just my thoughts. We need snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The "system" cant be messed with for profit. The GPS units were put in to put a stop to groomers idling for hours and it looks like it has worked. That is not necessarily true. You can have clubs running the groomers with the wheels down and low or no snow just to rack up the hours. And the cost of the system has probably outweighed the benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 That is not necessarily true. You can have clubs running the groomers with the wheels down and low or no snow just to rack up the hours. And the cost of the system has probably outweighed the benefit. Pretty sad if a club is driving their groomers around with no snow, just to rack up the hours. They will get caught. As messed as the OFSC is at times, they will know who has a reasonable amount of snow to groom and what is a reasonable amount of time to be grooming at a particular point in the year. Not to mention that they will be doing some major damage to the groomers by running them around in mud, rocks or low snow. Wonder what the repair bills will look like? They aren't set up like a farm tractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 One the bold.........How true. Maybe this is why the huge loss of volunteers in the North recently? The "system" cant be messed with for profit. The GPS units were put in to put a stop to groomers idling for hours and it looks like it has worked. I'm sure there will be more clubs going to fold because of this which is good and bad. Just my thoughts. We need snow. it is not specific to geographical location, it was happening all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Pretty sad if a club is driving their groomers around with no snow, just to rack up the hours. They will get caught. As messed as the OFSC is at times, they will know who has a reasonable amount of snow to groom and what is a reasonable amount of time to be grooming at a particular point in the year. Not to mention that they will be doing some major damage to the groomers by running them around in mud, rocks or low snow. Wonder what the repair bills will look like? They aren't set up like a farm tractor. Just imagine a club showing their trails closed and claiming groomer time. I believe it is now km groomed as opposed to hours now. Don't know if it is true but apparently some clubs would have a trail that they counted grooming km based on the trip out and the trip back over the same trail claiming the round trip was the number of km of trail they groomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 think people are blinded by the $200 mark, regardlesss make my permit 140 i"ll buy it keep it the same and I'll buy it as well. But i understand the cost to keep it open. really this province imo is being held in a stranglehold by the insurance industry what percentage of permit $$$ go to insurance plus your personnel insurance out of pocket getting a little out of hand now my provider house coverage increase cause of 4 ceiling fans in the house wtf! always a excuse to raise it i imagine no different in ofsc breaking it up onto districts i guess is one option lower permit to 180 raise validation tag to 45 and negotiate deal with mto for a piece of the gas tax (we use enough) to fund shortfall government run insurance programs including trail permit for 400 a year val tags stay at 15 bones disband ofsc and make a larger group of ontario federation of motorized trail users comprising of4wd atv and sleds with a common goal of maintaining a network of trails with a larger voice and many hands to make quicker work. the system is in trouble and as distasteful as it may seem I think a merger with other trail users may be the only answer we have even if it means we play second fiddle to the evergrowing atv movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 think people are blinded by the $200 mark, regardlesss make my permit 140 i"ll buy it keep it the same and I'll buy it as well. But i understand the cost to keep it open. really this province imo is being held in a stranglehold by the insurance industry what percentage of permit $$$ go to insurance plus your personnel insurance out of pocket getting a little out of hand now my provider house coverage increase cause of 4 ceiling fans in the house wtf! always a excuse to raise it i imagine no different in ofsc breaking it up onto districts i guess is one option lower permit to 180 raise validation tag to 45 and negotiate deal with mto for a piece of the gas tax (we use enough) to fund shortfall government run insurance programs including trail permit for 400 a year val tags stay at 15 bones disband ofsc and make a larger group of ontario federation of motorized trail users comprising of4wd atv and sleds with a common goal of maintaining a network of trails with a larger voice and many hands to make quicker work. the system is in trouble and as distasteful as it may seem I think a merger with other trail users may be the only answer we have even if it means we play second fiddle to the evergrowing atv movement I have said it before...for powersports to survive there has to be more sharing of resources and joint projects at the very least, If Quebec has trails that satisfy both ATV and snowmobile and do well at both..why can't Ontario? We are years from that but I stand behind reaching that goal. I'm not so sure we have to play second fiddle..both are equally important it's just that we have seen a couple lousy years that have helped to bolster ATV sales in the Central Ontario for sure. ATVs are growing and if we don't get on the bandwagon somehow soon, we might miss out on some golden opportunities to form something really good for all interests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 " apparently some clubs would have a trail that they counted grooming km based on the trip out and the trip back over the same trail claiming the round trip was the number of km of trail they groomed." Some clubs have roads along the way and can park groomers & be picked up without back-tracking all the way to the start. Areas in the north have to groom all the way out and back over the trunk trails and should receive credit for all of the grooming. Often the areas around town need multiple groomings because trafic is squeezed down to a main trail anyway. Most trails are double wide in the north and need grooming both ways. Wawa is able in a couple places to park groomers and be picked up to save the time and $ of going all the way back. This is great, but not doable in many cases. They should claim grooming on all round trips over the same trails if the groomer can't be parked somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Fiddling with permit pricing "may" help something/somewhere but it's like putting air in the tires of a car with an engine that is seized. I don't think it will sell any more permits and may, if fact, reduce overall revenues. And, it reminds me of pre-OFSC when we had permits from different snowmobile organizations in different areas. But the problems are bigger. District 16 is gone. District 13 is on death's door. We need a big overhaul and we need concerted and unified participation from all levels of government. I point to Quebec where I think someone must have got a bunch of people in a room and said "don't tell me all the reasons this can't be done, tell me how we are going to make it happen". And that included Federal, Provincial, Municipal and Crown Coroporations. The Quebec permit includes liability insurance. I can get $42 refund from my Quebec permit because I can prove I have more than $500,000 liability coverage. Some people say $500,000 is not enough. Well, in Quebec they've capped the limit on Liability on a Snowmobile trails. That's governments working together. In LaTouque last year in the middle of town (trails go 'through' towns and not 'around' towns) the traffic light had a Red an Orange a Green and the fourth light was a green snowmobile to let sledders know when it was safe to cross the main street. That's governments working together. They have district offices staffed by people who not only take care of permits but represent Tourism for that district. Help you with hotels, routing, information on gas stops, even book accomodations for you. More governments cooperating. We get some money from government but that's what we get; some money. "Here's the money", says the government, "and we hope it helps you." Versus the governments being truly involved by making the Ministries of Tourism, Transportation, Natural Resources, Environment, etc etc etc all be part of the solution. Active involvment. Who handles MNR issues here? It's the local club. A volunteer who doesn't have years of experience dealing with bureaucrats throwing up roadblocks. We need an MNR (and other ministries) who are actively working with a Central Body and who have received an edict handed down from their Minister to make snowmobiling work in the Province because it's worth millions of dollars to our economy. We still have two hundred and somethig clubs with divergent opinions and tons of members that want to do it the old way. We need a central organization that is run for the purpose of "selling" snowmobiling to every city and town in the Province. It's millions of tourism dollars and could be more. And, it could turn out to be LOTS LESS if we don't have effective lobbying, effective salesmanship, effective PR and a mindset that this is a cash benefit to the economy. And support the individual clubs instead of burying them in administration, paperwork and fear of lawyers. People volunteer to snowmobile clubs because they enjoy the sport, help work on trails, groom trails, and promote the sport. They don't join because they want to fill out a 5 page trail audit. If I'm a salesman, I don't want to be given a job in accounts payable. And vice versa. There is SO much to do to get this ship afloat again it is daunting. And, while I appreciate the effort they are going to with this survey and investigating different fees for different uses, the problem(s) are much greater than the price of a permit. oops, sorry; I guess I got carried away a little. I'll stop now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I have said it before...for powersports to survive there has to be more sharing of resources and joint projects at the very least, If Quebec has trails that satisfy both ATV and snowmobile and do well at both..why can't Ontario? We are years from that but I stand behind reaching that goal. I'm not so sure we have to play second fiddle..both are equally important it's just that we have seen a couple lousy years that have helped to bolster ATV sales in the Central Ontario for sure. ATVs are growing and if we don't get on the bandwagon somehow soon, we might miss out on some golden opportunities to form something really good for all interests You will never see dual purpose trails in the south as the majority of trails are on private farm land. They will not allow ATV's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 You will never see dual purpose trails in the south as the majority of trails are on private farm land. They will not allow ATV's You might see them if the landowners that allow trails are compensated in some form. That approach is used elsewhere. And, if that is something that is Not Allowed under current OFSC Guidelines then it might be another aspect of the way we run our Snowmobiling Business that needs to be reviewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Done.... I could ride from by back yard if the 401 wasn't in the way LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Fiddling with permit pricing "may" help something/somewhere but it's like putting air in the tires of a car with an engine that is seized. I don't think it will sell any more permits and may, if fact, reduce overall revenues. And, it reminds me of pre-OFSC when we had permits from different snowmobile organizations in different areas. But the problems are bigger. District 16 is gone. District 13 is on death's door. We need a big overhaul and we need concerted and unified participation from all levels of government. I point to Quebec where I think someone must have got a bunch of people in a room and said "don't tell me all the reasons this can't be done, tell me how we are going to make it happen". And that included Federal, Provincial, Municipal and Crown Coroporations. The Quebec permit includes liability insurance. I can get $42 refund from my Quebec permit because I can prove I have more than $500,000 liability coverage. Some people say $500,000 is not enough. Well, in Quebec they've capped the limit on Liability on a Snowmobile trails. That's governments working together. In LaTouque last year in the middle of town (trails go 'through' towns and not 'around' towns) the traffic light had a Red an Orange a Green and the fourth light was a green snowmobile to let sledders know when it was safe to cross the main street. That's governments working together. They have district offices staffed by people who not only take care of permits but represent Tourism for that district. Help you with hotels, routing, information on gas stops, even book accomodations for you. More governments cooperating. We get some money from government but that's what we get; some money. "Here's the money", says the government, "and we hope it helps you." Versus the governments being truly involved by making the Ministries of Tourism, Transportation, Natural Resources, Environment, etc etc etc all be part of the solution. Active involvment. Who handles MNR issues here? It's the local club. A volunteer who doesn't have years of experience dealing with bureaucrats throwing up roadblocks. We need an MNR (and other ministries) who are actively working with a Central Body and who have received an edict handed down from their Minister to make snowmobiling work in the Province because it's worth millions of dollars to our economy. We still have two hundred and somethig clubs with divergent opinions and tons of members that want to do it the old way. We need a central organization that is run for the purpose of "selling" snowmobiling to every city and town in the Province. It's millions of tourism dollars and could be more. And, it could turn out to be LOTS LESS if we don't have effective lobbying, effective salesmanship, effective PR and a mindset that this is a cash benefit to the economy. And support the individual clubs instead of burying them in administration, paperwork and fear of lawyers. People volunteer to snowmobile clubs because they enjoy the sport, help work on trails, groom trails, and promote the sport. They don't join because they want to fill out a 5 page trail audit. If I'm a salesman, I don't want to be given a job in accounts payable. And vice versa. There is SO much to do to get this ship afloat again it is daunting. And, while I appreciate the effort they are going to with this survey and investigating different fees for different uses, the problem(s) are much greater than the price of a permit. oops, sorry; I guess I got carried away a little. I'll stop now..... that's what i meant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Do we really think that the Val Tag Fee is going to be approved by the Liberals when an election is just around the corner, ot the other parties for that matter. No party in their right mind is going to alienate those many snowmobile owners who don't wish to use OFSC Trails. What argument can you make to these non-OFSC trail users that they should pay $25 or $30 a year to support someone elses sport. This would be political suicide. When a government is in an election mode, they absolutely shut down any files that have the slightest opportunity to create negative press/opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Fiddling with permit pricing "may" help something/somewhere but it's like putting air in the tires of a car with an engine that is seized. I don't think it will sell any more permits and may, if fact, reduce overall revenues. And, it reminds me of pre-OFSC when we had permits from different snowmobile organizations in different areas. But the problems are bigger. District 16 is gone. District 13 is on death's door. We need a big overhaul and we need concerted and unified participation from all levels of government. I point to Quebec where I think someone must have got a bunch of people in a room and said "don't tell me all the reasons this can't be done, tell me how we are going to make it happen". And that included Federal, Provincial, Municipal and Crown Coroporations. The Quebec permit includes liability insurance. I can get $42 refund from my Quebec permit because I can prove I have more than $500,000 liability coverage. Some people say $500,000 is not enough. Well, in Quebec they've capped the limit on Liability on a Snowmobile trails. That's governments working together. In LaTouque last year in the middle of town (trails go 'through' towns and not 'around' towns) the traffic light had a Red an Orange a Green and the fourth light was a green snowmobile to let sledders know when it was safe to cross the main street. That's governments working together. They have district offices staffed by people who not only take care of permits but represent Tourism for that district. Help you with hotels, routing, information on gas stops, even book accomodations for you. More governments cooperating. We get some money from government but that's what we get; some money. "Here's the money", says the government, "and we hope it helps you." Versus the governments being truly involved by making the Ministries of Tourism, Transportation, Natural Resources, Environment, etc etc etc all be part of the solution. Active involvment. Who handles MNR issues here? It's the local club. A volunteer who doesn't have years of experience dealing with bureaucrats throwing up roadblocks. We need an MNR (and other ministries) who are actively working with a Central Body and who have received an edict handed down from their Minister to make snowmobiling work in the Province because it's worth millions of dollars to our economy. We still have two hundred and somethig clubs with divergent opinions and tons of members that want to do it the old way. We need a central organization that is run for the purpose of "selling" snowmobiling to every city and town in the Province. It's millions of tourism dollars and could be more. And, it could turn out to be LOTS LESS if we don't have effective lobbying, effective salesmanship, effective PR and a mindset that this is a cash benefit to the economy. And support the individual clubs instead of burying them in administration, paperwork and fear of lawyers. People volunteer to snowmobile clubs because they enjoy the sport, help work on trails, groom trails, and promote the sport. They don't join because they want to fill out a 5 page trail audit. If I'm a salesman, I don't want to be given a job in accounts payable. And vice versa. There is SO much to do to get this ship afloat again it is daunting. And, while I appreciate the effort they are going to with this survey and investigating different fees for different uses, the problem(s) are much greater than the price of a permit. oops, sorry; I guess I got carried away a little. I'll stop now..... STG dont stop...thats what the palace needs to read....but unfortunately reading and listening is not part of it when they know ...cutting the price I agree with some what but not what they are thinking.....i would say 200 early buy....280-300 after Dec1 and if caught on trail two options....4-500 trail side or a visit to the Rapids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Do we really think that the Val Tag Fee is going to be approved by the Liberals when an election is just around the corner, ot the other parties for that matter. No party in their right mind is going to alienate those many snowmobile owners who don't wish to use OFSC Trails. What argument can you make to these non-OFSC trail users that they should pay $25 or $30 a year to support someone elses sport. This would be political suicide. When a government is in an election mode, they absolutely shut down any files that have the slightest opportunity to create negative press/opinion. Dead right . Unfortunatly we are working on the wrong end of the issue. Not saying that everything should stay as it is either. - The insurance is taking millions out of the sport - The economy and resulting public mood has reduced the ability of folks to stay in the sport. - It costs huge to buy sleds a reduction in passes is unlikely to make riders rejion the sport via the purchase of a sled - The paperwork is killing the voluntolds that are the heart and soul of the sport - There is no turning back from this radical of a change it is a sink now or swim now get it over with suggestion - over $70.00 of every permit goes to insurance if this could change so could our permit price. - The north will immediatly die as regional permits will not leave the funds needed for equalization - there will be too many exceptions to who has to buy a valtag to make it work ie fishermen trappers natives etc. - yay more trail patrol as some are riding provicially on thier regional pass - easy to abuse overlaps and borders will be confusing and problematic There has to be a better way Just my thoughts I hope that someone has a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I agree, if it could be agreed on, a complete restructuring in some form as STG has suggested would be great. The problem would be getting the majority vote to do so. Does anybody know how Quebec's system was run prior to their current system? Was it multi tiered volunteer driven government as the ofsc is? The restructuring isn't hard, it is agreeing to do it. You are also looking to governments that have wasted so much money and spread them selves so thin, they already need to cut services and programs......will they really buy into supporting a recreational activity in economical times like this? and should they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I agree, if it could be agreed on, a complete restructuring in some form as STG has suggested would be great. The problem would be getting the majority vote to do so. Does anybody know how Quebec's system was run prior to their current system? Was it multi tiered volunteer driven government as the ofsc is? The restructuring isn't hard, it is agreeing to do it. You are also looking to governments that have wasted so much money and spread them selves so thin, they already need to cut services and programs......will they really buy into supporting a recreational activity in economical times like this? and should they? Wildman the way some think the well will never run dry....peeps get ready your province is broke.....time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Dead right . Unfortunatly we are working on the wrong end of the issue. Not saying that everything should stay as it is either. - The insurance is taking millions out of the sport - The economy and resulting public mood has reduced the ability of folks to stay in the sport. - It costs huge to buy sleds a reduction in passes is unlikely to make riders rejion the sport via the purchase of a sled - The paperwork is killing the voluntolds that are the heart and soul of the sport - There is no turning back from this radical of a change it is a sink now or swim now get it over with suggestion - over $70.00 of every permit goes to insurance if this could change so could our permit price. - The north will immediatly die as regional permits will not leave the funds needed for equalization - there will be too many exceptions to who has to buy a valtag to make it work ie fishermen trappers natives etc. - yay more trail patrol as some are riding provicially on thier regional pass - easy to abuse overlaps and borders will be confusing and problematic There has to be a better way Just my thoughts I hope that someone has a better idea. exactly. what is the insurance premium now Bill, I thought it was 4m, but was told this past weekend it was 20m. Don't matter how u cut it, either is allota quid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 You might see them if the landowners that allow trails are compensated in some form. That approach is used elsewhere. And, if that is something that is Not Allowed under current OFSC Guidelines then it might be another aspect of the way we run our Snowmobiling Business that needs to be reviewed. Bingo! What worked ten years ago isn't working today. Where dual purpose trails exist, they often do very well, or at least where resources are shared things seem to be very proactive instead of reactive. I realize that there will be laces that you can't have ATV's and sleds side by side and I don't mean to be driving at that, but if you build one trail for a sled, then build another a few feet away for an ATV and both groups can share in the resources to maintain them both. Then there is a true year round trail system. We have landowner permits here that cover ATV's for the Summer and sleds use the same trails in the Winter. HATVA just did a 50K project on the B112 that will benefit both clubs huge. Thats what I am talking about. Most ATVers don't want to ride farm fields anyways..so it likely won't be an issue for the south Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Wildman the way some think the well will never run dry....peeps get ready your province is broke.....time will tell. it is broke all right, and people think I am nuts when I say we are just a tick off communism, 70% of our wages already go to some sort of tax, how long before they get the other 30% ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 exactly. what is the insurance premium now Bill, I thought it was 4m, but was told this past weekend it was 20m. Don't matter how u cut it, either is allota quid Not just the premium there is also the deductable the reserves to cover the deductable and the costs of risk management to reduce the lawsuit results. I conservatilvly figured the costs at 5 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Not just the premium there is also the deductable the reserves to cover the deductable and the costs of risk management to reduce the lawsuit results. I conservatilvly figured the costs at 5 million yup, so the lawyers and the galacticly stupid seem to take a few bux off the snow eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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