OFSC Survey - Framework for Change

[skidooer]

Yes but the turbine people don't drive through the crops

Actually, the turbine people are really bad for damaging crops and will drive through it without a care for what might be growing. There were quite a few corn fields with paths through them this fall around here.

They do compensate though, but then again, so does the OFSC.

[Viperules700]

Actually, the turbine people are really bad for damaging crops and will drive through it without

a care for what might be growing. There were

quite a few corn fields with paths through them

this fall around here.

They do compensate though, but then again, so does the OFSC.

How do you compensate though when land rents are around 350 per acre and the yields on wheat are 70 bushels an acre at say 6.00 per Bussel. So another 420 per acre.

[old sledhead]

When it comes to permitts lets use the keep it simple method . No bounderys how on earth are you going to patrol and inforce that??? Go to a provincal permit , it would be your val tag make the price $150.00 . Now all sleds in the province are legal for trail riding if they want to or not . it would also insure money going toward snowmobiling year around. The matrix would have to be reworked that clubs would be paid for km of trail then use km ot trail groomed plus weeks useing the four year average.

As for atvs shared use I am a landowner and can tell you this will never happen on my property. I purchased and pay taxes on my property so i can use it . My wife and I like to hunt how can we enjoy our propery if atvs are running through it all year long. Also how would i ever keep other hunters out during open season or worse at anytime

[Panther340]

Well Old Sledhead folks like Bucking Pig's example of the many sledders he knows and me and others are not interested in starting to pay $150 for val tags so you can tour the trails as your sport ..........while the majority of sled owners are not interested in using trails, or are not near any etc etc.

But thanks for wanting to pick my pockets.

[02Sled]

y

Are you serious? There are 15 sleds owned by people in my office. Not one of them EVER rides an OFSC trail. EVER!!! For one thing, there arn't any. We use them to hunt, fish, go to camp, or ride on the old logging roads. In my town, there are probably 50 -100 sleds.. Again, not one has a permit, beacuse not one of them rides an OFSC trail. Why should we contibute to a trail system we don't use. Just because you trail ride doen't men everyone does. I wish you luck at keeping your trail system alive, if that's how you like to (have to) ride, but don't expect folks who don't use the system to have to pay for it.

BP

The one thing that is guaranteed in life is CHANGE. If 15 out of 15 don't use OFSC trails then who is using them if anybody? Devil's advocate. Are the only people using these trails those that trailer 14 hours north from the GTA for a week of sledding and then return home. I suspect that is a very small portion of the sledding population and that traffic on those trails is almost non existent. If that is the case then perhaps it is time to recognize those trails as unsustainable due to lack of use and let them cease to exist. Something like the line in the Join Mitchell song... you don't know what you've got till it's gone!

[02Sled]

As mentioned most ATVers aren't interested in riding fields. They're plain boring. Those that are trespassing are likely getting from one place to another or kids messing around. Bad apples no exceptions. However, anywhere in Central, Eastern, Northern Ontario there exists a great potential to develop a shared trail system or dual track system which could be managed by a solid association or affiliation of the various powersports groups.It can work, we just need the people to believe it can.

Could you imagine riding your favorite trails one week on an ATV then a couple weeks later on a sled? Or if there was a dual track set up, you could ATV one day and sled the next. We are fools to sit back and say it can't be done or say people won't buy into it. With the sales of ATV and UTV's rocketing there is a demand for well signed, developed trails that promote touring..not just a ride in the mud for an hour. Now the four seaters are coming out strong too and that means whole families will want to enjoy these trails at at fraction of the cost of sledding.

What I do see, is that if something is not born soon out of both camps. I see the ATV world grow and not want to hold hands with the sledder world. That would be a shame. Time for both to get into bed.

The boring part. I made the same comment about people who say they are happy to ride their sled all around the ice of Lake Couchiching all the time and never head off onto a trail and was told there are lots of people who wouldn't find that boring.

[02Sled]

Actually, the turbine people are really bad for damaging crops and will drive through it without a care for what might be growing. There were quite a few corn fields with paths through them this fall around here.

They do compensate though, but then again, so does the OFSC.

Is it not part of the contract that is signed regarding access to the wind turbines. You have to know they need maintenance when you agree to set them up on your property.

[Fred Quimby]

I often wonder what "never" really means? When guy says.. I "never"ride OFSC trails. Is that truly never or only once in awhile? I have a hard time believing that if there is 100 sleds in a small town up north that not one ever rides an OFSC trail.

I really wonder why the same people that are here complaining about permit pricing that reside in the north that never ride OFSC trails are complaining in the first place...if you never ride trails, never buy a pass, why would you care? Continue on your merry way on the lakes and roads. Let the OFSC figure out how to save the clubs and trails. However you should care as those riders that come to visit bring dollars to your area, buy your goods, eat in your restaurants, and sleep in your motels. Some even buy your locals products....year after year.

If you say you were being generous to support a club by buying a pass..even at 100 bucks that's a lot of generosity..for something you never use. Hat's off!

[Fred Quimby]

The boring part. I made the same comment about people who say they are happy to ride their sled all around the ice of Lake Couchiching all the time and never head off onto a trail and was told there are lots of people who wouldn't find that boring.

Most ATV enthusiasts want a degree of technically challenging trails. While some do like the thick mud holes, many like to winch and climb rock, traverse deep water or ride over some gnarly obstacles. Still s few, the novice or young like a flat rail line..but that usually doesn't last too long. The average good rider likes deep forest, with twisties, climbs, drops, some obstacles and some mud. A responsible rider is not apt to tearing through fields as god only knows what might be in the middle of a field that you could hit! I myself could not stand riding lakes all the time. It's fun to ride the lakes once in awhile, it's not my preference and it would drive me nuts to do it day in and day out, especially circling the edge.

[Panther340]

Fred you stated...... " I really wonder why the same people that are here complaining about permit pricing that reside in the north that never ride OFSC trails are complaining in the first place...if you never ride trails, never buy a pass, why would you care? Continue on your merry way on the lakes and roads. Let the OFSC figure out how to save the clubs and trails. However you should care as those riders that come to visit bring dollars to your area, buy your goods, eat in your restaurants, and sleep in your motels. Some even buy your locals products....year after year."

Well simple answer is Fred ........I and others care because you and OFSC seem to be deciding that the rest of the province that do not use the trails will start paying for your sport more than our taxes already do .....so of course I care , and even though I appreciate the tourism , it seems that a typical two hotel room nights actually costs more than the $210 right to drive all the trails of Ontario. So not sure why any should complain about paying even $300 for a trail permit. And please go look at a map and see what small percentage of province the trails OFSC now has actually covers or access in the North , it is a small fraction. By the way don't look at the typical Southern Ontario Map you buy that has the North on the flip side, or if you do, at least realize that the flip side of those maps of the north are at almost half the scale (so one inch equals twice as far.) We also have way more aboriginal and fishing types too or just folks that use snowmachines to get around on rural roads that allow them. But even if they do use the trails, (which most don't even need to ) these aboriginals and fishing folks are allowed to use the trails. I for example can access McCarroll Lake , Cloudy , Gordon, Rock , and Bass lake without ever going on any OFSC trail....and I do. And your ignorance about ATV damage to trails is a little worrying too. I have 3 Km ATV trails thru my own bush lot and I do not use them for two months of spring and two months of fall because the repair work I would need to do after that is not worth it. Asking landowners to expect to take a pitance to let ATV's use their land for the other 8 months will be an extremely tough sell , because there are far too many yahoos that your clubs would have no control of. In summer the windows of these landowners are open, in summer they want their privacy, in fall they want limits for hunting, in summer they may worry about fire damage due to a stray ciggarette butt, so many problems the winter trails don't have. Just being devils advocate .

[Fred Quimby]

Fred you stated...... " I really wonder why the same people that are here complaining about permit pricing that reside in the north that never ride OFSC trails are complaining in the first place...if you never ride trails, never buy a pass, why would you care? Continue on your merry way on the lakes and roads. Let the OFSC figure out how to save the clubs and trails. However you should care as those riders that come to visit bring dollars to your area, buy your goods, eat in your restaurants, and sleep in your motels. Some even buy your locals products....year after year."

Well simple answer is Fred ........I and others care because you and OFSC seem to be deciding that the rest of the province that do not use the trails will start paying for your sport more than our taxes already do .....so of course I care , and even though I appreciate the tourism , it seems that a typical two hotel room nights actually costs more than the $210 right to drive all the trails of Ontario. So not sure why any should complain about paying even $300 for a trail permit. And please go look at a map and see what small percentage of province the trails OFSC now has actually covers or access in the North , it is a small fraction. By the way don't look at the typical Southern Ontario Map you buy that has the North on the flip side, or if you do, at least realize that the flip side of those maps of the north are at almost half the scale (so one inch equals twice as far.) We also have way more aboriginal and fishing types too or just folks that use snowmachines to get around on rural roads that allow them. But even if they do use the trails, (which most don't even need to ) these aboriginals and fishing folks are allowed to use the trails. I for example can access McCarroll Lake , Cloudy , Gordon, Rock , and Bass lake without ever going on any OFSC trail....and I do. And your ignorance about ATV damage to trails is a little worrying too. I have 3 Km ATV trails thru my own bush lot and I do not use them for two months of spring and two months of fall because the repair work I would need to do after that is not worth it. Asking landowners to expect to take a pitance to let ATV's use their land for the other 8 months will be an extremely tough sell , because there are far too many yahoos that your clubs would have no control of. In summer the windows of these landowners are open, in summer they want their privacy, in fall they want limits for hunting, in summer they may worry about fire damage due to a stray ciggarette butt, so many problems the winter trails don't have. Just being devils advocate .

Please don't speak to me as if I am an idiot from the south that has no clue about how trails are structured, laid out on a map and percentages. I don't personally decide anything. The OFSC decides based on what is voted on and what their directors feel is best for the greater good. One Province, one organization many problems and I have yet to hear from you any solutions..just bitching about how the poor of the north is getting screwed by everybody everywhere. If the tables were turned you would be singing a different tune.

In addition if an ATV trail is properly constructed (not just clear cut trail through a bush) it can be utilized eight months of the year, that is proven. I am a director with our local ATV club and can tell you first hand the difference in construction of a decent trail versus one that is just cut through the bush. Yes it costs money but you have to spend money to make money. You are correct that if the trail is simply just a cut trail then yes..it's better to keep off them when the Spring freshet melts or the Fall rains overburden drainage. So your point about my ignorance about ATV use and damage is moot. Perhaps the trail on your property is just a cut trail and not one built for ATV use? Do you know the difference?

A properly run ATV club does monitor and warden the "yahoos" and control what occurs on the trail network. We have 1700 Km's+ of ATV trails in this area alone versus about 350 Km's of local snowmobile trails..so tell me what sport is growing and why? Also a properly run ATV club foster the tread softly approach to responsible ridership, promotes education, signs and insures it's trails, and obtains LUP's the same as a snowmobile club. They also build and re-deck bridges, do culvert repairs, and clean dead-fall and brush. No different than a snowmobile club. Your ignorance towards this exceeds your arrogance towards the sport.

Why don't you rally or petition your local MP and MPP to close all the trails up your way if your sick of supporting them? If your not part of the solution you are part of the problem and I have yet to hear one positive thing suggested by you to improve the sport. Panther..you complain about buying a pass, the price of a pass, valtags, the price of valtags... the people of the north having to support others..nothing is a free ride anymore! Why do you think ATVing and snowmobiling exist so well in Quebec? Because they made it work and it means big dollars in an area that needed money inflows. They have large Native populations up there too..yet seem to sell passes and promote the sport? How come? Because there is drive and determination to sell a product and sell a good product not to sit back and be handed what they feel is due theirs.

[Sasquatch777]

One the bold.........How true. Maybe this is why the huge loss of volunteers in the North recently? The "system" cant be messed with for profit. The GPS units were put in to put a stop to groomers idling for hours and it looks like it has worked. I'm sure there will be more clubs going to fold because of this which is good and bad.

Just my thoughts.

We need snow.

What an ignorant arrogant thing to say! Hard working Volunteers in the North are quiting because of GPS tracking? Just goes to show some Southern people go out of their way to give the rest a bad name. Shame on you!

No wonder the North South thing just festers and festers!

[Panther340]

Quite frankly Fred my suggestion was to raise the rates to meet the trail needs. Leave the present tax payer funding the way it is. On other threads I long ago stated that the norths downfall on OFSC trail permit selling is not because more cheat..IT IS BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMY IN USA , and the border passports USA needs ……..AND THE Canadian ECONOMY IMPACT ON NORTHERN LOGGING JOBS AND MINING AND SUPPORT JOBS. Blaming it on north’s lack of enthusiasm or cheating riders is just a misdirection.

But you do have to admit that the client of the sport has changed, and is that the fault of the other snowmachine owners ? No ! ……. your sport and its expectations on the trails has increased , wider bigger longer, huge bridges etc etc. So if your upset that a Northern Ontario snowmachine owner has an opinion on this site about the north that differs from yours , sorry but that is the way it is.

Also I never accused you of complete ignorance of the north, but yes lack of appreciation of how big the north is , what economy impacts and how many kilometers the OFSC north trails are. So expecting them to be bush cut double wide and made with probably gravel the full length to achieve the type of ATV trails you want would or need to prevent summer and fall destruction….. is unrealistic. Where the OFSC trails need the trees cut to ground level at most and will have a 2 foot cushion of snow to prevent damage and frost prevents damge too. But the ATV trails would need complete protection from ground damage . I lifeted almost all my trails 12 inches above existing ground using my Kubota BX2660 front end mini loader and grew grass or weeds on all of it and use wood chips in low spots as they asrise but those quickly sink into ruts in spring and fall so yes I know how far you would have to go to make ATV trails work in Northern bush….let alone the frozen swamps or creeks that now provide little problem to the Snowmachine trail but would be horrendous costs and enviro impact for ATV trails..but just giving you the picture at ground level. Sometimes those with the dreams need to be given a wakepup call from those in the trenches. Maybe one day when I retire in a few years I will take up OFSC trail touring and love the sport, but for now it is not a high priority to tour trail .

[Panther340]

Oh and the Quebec example is an apples to oranges comparision, Quebec also has full day day care etc etc, and when the province runs out of money they go running to the Federal government asking for more equalization payments so they can pay for these perks (daycare ,subsiduzed trails etc etc) ..or they threaten to leave Canada ....so yes Quebec has far more leverage than Ontario to get more money from the rest of us taxpayers . But thinking Ontario can get more equalization payments and use it extras like this will not happen in your or my lifetime.

[Sasquatch777]

The Val Tag only system saved Saskatchewan. It can save Ontario. Or we can just continue to fight amongst ourselves and turn green with jelousy or red with rage. The OFSC trail system is in trouble! All sledders can bail it out or just the few remaining diehards paying even higher pass fees.

If my club folds I will continue to ride. How many of you can say that in the south? Its time to band together and help each other or watch the OFSC's dream turn into a nightmare! Looks like trail pass sales sucked again this year.

[dweese]

My only question is, if we can't enforce a province wide permit system now, how are going to enforce a multi region permit system.

Or is the idea with a region permit system, it will be cheaper and it cut down on the level of freeloaders, therefor increasing over all income?

[sledjunk]

Or is the idea with a region permit system, it will be cheaper and it cut down on the level of freeloaders, therefor increasing over all income?

I think that it the thought (dream?). The problem is that there are still a number of unanswered questions.

[Canuck]

Work together on this one, folks.

If there's anyone with a gift for math, get involved at the club level and see if the projections for the proposed system work.

Same with insurance - I once met a person whose specialty was reviewing insurance provisions for major lenders to ensure that the lenders were covered. Someone like that could look at existing policies for trails, equipment (club atv's, etc), director's liability and make suggestions on premiums and deductables.

______________________________________________

[02Sled]

I often wonder what "never" really means? When guy says.. I "never"ride OFSC trails. Is that truly never or only once in awhile? I have a hard time believing that if there is 100 sleds in a small town up north that not one ever rides an OFSC trail.

I really wonder why the same people that are here complaining about permit pricing that reside in the north that never ride OFSC trails are complaining in the first place...if you never ride trails, never buy a pass, why would you care? Continue on your merry way on the lakes and roads. Let the OFSC figure out how to save the clubs and trails. However you should care as those riders that come to visit bring dollars to your area, buy your goods, eat in your restaurants, and sleep in your motels. Some even buy your locals products....year after year.

If you say you were being generous to support a club by buying a pass..even at 100 bucks that's a lot of generosity..for something you never use. Hat's off!

I like your perspective

[dweese]

I often wonder what "never" really means? When guy says.. I "never"ride OFSC trails. Is that truly never or only once in awhile? I have a hard time believing that if there is 100 sleds in a small town up north that not one ever rides an OFSC trail.

I really wonder why the same people that are here complaining about permit pricing that reside in the north that never ride OFSC trails are complaining in the first place...if you never ride trails, never buy a pass, why would you care? Continue on your merry way on the lakes and roads. Let the OFSC figure out how to save the clubs and trails. However you should care as those riders that come to visit bring dollars to your area, buy your goods, eat in your restaurants, and sleep in your motels. Some even buy your locals products....year after year.

If you say you were being generous to support a club by buying a pass..even at 100 bucks that's a lot of generosity..for something you never use. Hat's off!

I think their complaint is not with permit price but the idea of having to buy a permit linked to thier Val sticker when they don't use the trail system. Which is a vaild point. But the whole linking the two in to one, I think is a long way off. As we have seen by this survey that idea doesn't even look like its on the table anyways.

However if you had to buy a permit with your Val tag, maybe that would push new people in to the system and help built and create new trails and clubs.

[02Sled]

Quite frankly Fred my suggestion was to raise the rates to meet the trail needs. Leave the present tax payer funding the way it is. .

Now do we raise the rates to the levels necessary to meet the trail needs on a regional basis or a provincial basis? Don't forget you have already stated you are not in favour of paying for something you don't use. That is why you said why should someone who doesn't use the trails subsidise the trails through their Val Tag fees.

If that is the case I can see the permit cost around Nipigon being in the range of $600+ per season based on the low volume of usage relative to the permit sales. After all so many in the area don't use those trails the few that do should pay the rates necessary to meet those trail needs.

Now we look at an area like Gravenhurst where there is a large number of sleds out on the trails. If we look at the cost to maintain those trails divided by the number of users buying permits we could perhaps even reduce the cost per sled. Most of those riders will never venture to the trails in your area so by your argument of no subisidies and raising rates to meet the needs of the trails you will pay way much more for your trails except that you don't use them in the first place.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Subsidies exist everywhere in society today. Sledding is no different. Out of one side of your mouth you say nobody who doesn't use the trails should pay for them but out of the other side you want the OFSC to pay for the trails in your area even though there aren't necessarily enough users of those trails to sustain them. That is a subsidy in my books. So which is it are subsidies okay or not.

[02Sled]

I think their complaint is not with permit price but the idea of having to buy a permit linked to thier Val sticker when they don't use the trail system. Which is a vaild point. But the whole linking the two in to one, I think is a long way off. As we have seen by this survey that idea doesn't even look like its on the table anyways.

However if you had to buy a permit with your Val tag, maybe that would push new people in to the system and help built and create new trails and clubs.

Very valid perspective. You aren't buying a permit today and aren't riding the trails. If your Val Tag gives you the right to ride the trails you would likely start using them. The more people using the trails the likelihood of becoming involved with the management of those trails increases.

[Lep]

I think the borders separating will be the big issue..S/W is apparently D4-5-9. I would like to see D8 in that group.

The MTO surcharge. Apparently 150,000 sleds in Ontario ( my numbers might be slightly off) with 70,000 buying OFSC permits. The other 80,000 ride Mon-Weds at no cost. The $20 fee will( raising MTO stickers to $35) will go directly to OFSC admin and insurance. That is what I'm being told.

The enforcement of borders will be the nightmare!

Faceman....The OFSC has turned into Wall Street....2+2=9........the $hit they are saying about the freeloaders is BLOWN up and being used as a excuse plain and simple.....there ### dont give at all......the ## they are putting forth are wrong in my eyes and the MTO is wrong also....we have been thru this inn our indust a few yrs ago.....just because they say there are 165000 sled registered in ont doesnt say the 165k are buying vag tags......so 165k tags so says MTO/OFSC and 70k permits sold so says the OFSC ...I call BS on those there is no way we are running at more than 50% non complance.....sad.

[bbakernbay]

Do we really think that the Val Tag Fee is going to be approved by the Liberals when an election is just around the corner, ot the other parties for that matter.

No party in their right mind is going to alienate those many snowmobile owners who don't wish to use OFSC Trails.

What argument can you make to these non-OFSC trail users that they should pay $25 or $30 a year to support someone elses sport.

This would be political suicide. When a government is in an election mode, they absolutely shut down any files that have the slightest opportunity to create negative press/opinion.

AND I forgot to mention that two years ago this same government turned down the OFSC's AGM Recommendation to increase the Trail Permit fee by a measly $10.

No reason was given, but it was just before the last provincial election so the reasoning was obvious.

They were scared to approve an increase that was recommended by the very Clubs that do the work and see what it does cost to operate 30,000 kms of trails.

[Panther340]

02 Sled stated .........." Out of one side of your mouth you say nobody who doesn't use the trails should pay for them but out of the other side you want the OFSC to pay for the trails in your area even though there aren't necessarily enough users of those trails to sustain them. That is a subsidy in my books. So which is it are subsidies okay or not. "

I never said I want the OFSC to pay for trails they can't afford , quite frankly I told you I don't ride them. So same message always from me. You may just be reading me the way you want to slot my opinion.

But if or when I retire, the trails are still around in some form , I might gladly get involved even if it was just to help with equipment work to trailer my tractor /loader in ....or better yet learn to drive a groomer for a club too while I use some retirement time. I suspect at 60 yrs old I could handle a heated cab versus a snowmachine touring the trails. Ideally if logging and mining economy improves in a few years then the young guys will stay in north an buy machines and even trail permits and maybe by then USA will not be so parnoid about requiring passports at border and we will have more USA tourists that want to ride in our wilderness. But until then the OFSC has a rough economic ride ahead, present sport users may need to step up to the plate and instead of paying for satellite radio for their truck for a year , or one less timmies coffee a day they could afford a twenty dollar increase in trail permit maybe .

edit one more thing re; American tourists, they are not coming across border to ride and fish in Southern Ontario, these guys want the Northern experience and many even have access to camps up here. So sensitivity of actual spread of USA and tourists dollars needs to appreciated. They impact the north more than the south, so help to make border crossings easier (no passport so they can bring their friends) would be a suggestion. Canada working with US to have one continental border policy to keep trouble makers out will prevent them being worried about people returning to USA from Canada.