OFSC Trail Audits

[revrnd]

We've all heard over the years about trails not being opened because the signage isn't "correct". Well is there any regulation about removing trail designation when the numbering changes?

On TOP C north of Gogama we saw a C209 marker and on TOP A within sight of the Snowmobile Tree in Val Gagne, we saw a A101 marker.

I'm not sure when C209 "disappeared", but it is still shown on a 2000 TOP Trail Guide. I think A101 "disappeared" more recently due to the rerouting of TOP A west of Hwy. 11 between Val Gagne & Iroquois Falls.

Finally, on the previously unused reroute west of Shining Tree we saw a C210 marker. That trail was still on the maps in 2000. The Shining Tree club had also put up TOP C signs. In that case, the club probably just closed the trail & had no intentions of using it again.

My point is that if the OFSC is so stringent about some signage that results in a trail being closed, why do they not make it a point to write up the club about the old markers? I'm pretty sure we even saw a few of the "outlawed" chevron signs during our travels.

If the trails had been audited by OFSC officials, why were the clubs not told to remove these outdated signs.

Don't take this as club bashing because I can't imagine the job looking after the signage up there especially when some sections of trail aren't accessible until freeze up.

[Canuck]

The criteria is: Can a sled travelling 50 km per hour safely navigate the trail (according to a discussion I had with an OFSC trail patrol in the north).

If a Scandik would have a hard time navigating a corner at 60 km per hour, they put advance warning (ie "Slow").

As for trail signs to nowhere - good point.

Lastly, there is a heck of a lot of work this summer and fall removing the sign stumps (steel bars) where signs used to be. I was debating suggesting that those sign rights be rented to local businesses since the pole is in the ground anyways, but that opens a whole slew of issues (liability; advertising pollution).

[Reved]

It's a lot of work to put the signs up and take them down again never mind keeping up with theft. Not all clubs have the people to do it.

[bbakernbay]

The OFSC Trail Audits do not concern themselves with Trail Number signs. They concentrate on the prescribed Regulatory signs, Stop, Stop Ahead, Slow, Directional Arrow, etc. They will issue infraction for the old Chevrons. Too many clubs are still using Directional Arrows (black on yellow) incorrectly as you can't have a Directional Arrow without a Slow sign preceding it.

The Auditors just went through a large area of District 11 and I can assure you they don't miss anything. They are equipped with a GPS & computer and issue A-03's that include a GPS trail map with the location and description of infraction noted on the map. Lots & lots of paper. Emergency Situations are issued immediately if a Stop Sign is missing, otherwise the Club receives them a week or so after the Trail Audit is completed.

I can assure you signing is a tremendous amount of work.

Speak to your Club directly if the trail numbering is incorrect.

Most Clubs received NTC funding this year to improve tourism and destination signing.

BB - NBSC

[skidooer]

Too many clubs are still using Directional Arrows (black on yellow) incorrectly as you can't have a Directional Arrow without a Slow sign preceding it.

Who came up with that idea? A yellow sign always means slow down and be careful, and the arrow indicates that you need to slow down because of a curve. That is basic driving 101. What information does the slow sign add?

Although I do recall the year the rule was implemented. It made the trails significantly more difficult to navigate and much more dangerous since the clubs, at least around here, removed the arrow signs completely. You knew a turn was coming over the hill because of the slow sign, but it was anyone's guess as to which direction it was going.

[Reved]

Too many clubs are still using Directional Arrows (black on yellow) incorrectly as you can't have a Directional Arrow without a Slow sign preceding it.

Who came up with that idea? A yellow sign always means slow down and be careful, and the arrow indicates that you need to slow down because of a curve. That is basic driving 101. What information does the slow sign add?

Arrows are at the apex of the curve and thr Slow is a 115m warning.

[skidooer]

Arrows are at the apex of the curve and thr Slow is a 115m warning.

That makes sense. They must have changed the rules again. I never did make it out onto the trails this year, but in year's past the slow sign would usually be found at the apex of the curve. It was really quite dangerous.

[bbakernbay]

The funny thing is you don't receive an infraction notice if you choose to NOT put up either a 'SLOW' or combination "SLOW & Directional ARROW" since this is a judgement call. Once you decide to put up the signs then you've got to follow the Signing Regs.

Some Clubs, ours/me included, are probably guilty of oversigning in order to assist the touring riders but if you don't do it correctly, you'll end up with a mess of A-03 Infractions to correct.

It's really tough passing these along to some Clubs who only have dial-up internet. Either clogs their line for an hour or two or shuts down.

[Faceman]

Ah, the almighty "rule book". It's always been my understanding that the rule book was meant as a guideline but did not deny you from making a common sense decision. Case in point, we had a hard 90 at the base of a hill. On the backside was a plantation of small pines. After numerous "blown corners" the landowner requested extra signage to prevent further damage/ or we would lose the trail. I re-signed the corner , heavy into orange staking , caution tape and extra slow signs. We were audited one week later and I was advised to remove the extra and return it to comply.

Three days later, after several more blown corners we lost the trail... I am now taking a stronger position in that if a landowner requests something different and it is reasonable I will document this request and follow through with the request.

[Easy Rider]

Arrows are at the apex of the curve and thr Slow is a 115m warning.

That makes sense. They must have changed the rules again. I never did make it out onto the trails this year, but in year's past the slow sign would usually be found at the apex of the curve. It was really quite dangerous.

Nothing has changed, slow sign is to be 100 to 115m before a directional arrow. Been that way ever since the OFSC went to the arrow system. It actually works great as long as the sign installation is done corectly.

[Nith Valley Sledder]

Ah, the almighty "rule book". It's always been my understanding that the rule book was meant as a guideline but did not deny you from making a common sense decision. Case in point, we had a hard 90 at the base of a hill. On the backside was a plantation of small pines. After numerous "blown corners" the landowner requested extra signage to prevent further damage/ or we would lose the trail. I re-signed the corner , heavy into orange staking , caution tape and extra slow signs. We were audited one week later and I was advised to remove the extra and return it to comply.

Three days later, after several more blown corners we lost the trail... I am now taking a stronger position in that if a landowner requests something different and it is reasonable I will document this request and follow through with the request.

Clubs can make alterations to the sign guide. All they have to do is make a note of it on their A01 form. But really, if the guys blowing the corner because they didn't pay attention to the slow sign probably aren't going to slow down for extra slow signs.

You really don't have to use the arrows at all. A slow sign is sufficient to tell the rider to slow down for an upcoming obstacle. If you do use an arrow the guide makes it mandatory to use a slow preceding it. Some trails up north you can go for miles seeing only an occasional slow sign and no arrows. It is these type of trails that make the rider slow down for a slow sign because it probably means something. I think we are getting to the point of signage pollution here in the south. People see so many slow and arrow signs that they start to ignore then as many don't really mean anything.

[bbakernbay]

Has anybody ever been given an A-03 Infraction because there was no 'Slow' sign or no 'Directional Arrow'?

[Lex]

Yes, they will tell you when they find a location that they feel should be signed. Sometimes it's not up to the discretion on the club signage person.

[bbakernbay]

I've reviewed a 100+ A-03's for District 11 in the last few years and can't recall any Infractions for signs that the Auditors thought should be in place but weren't (other than missing Stop Signs or Stop Ahead.

That's fine if they are doing that.

My point is the more you sign, the greater chance you'll receive Infraction Notices for improper placement but if you do absolute minimum signing you'll probably not get Infractions.

[snowmanofkw]

Obviously the OFSC auditors have never been to district 9, 8 or 10 or 11 this year...sign-age is terrible most places....somebody needs to explain what 100-115 Metres is ..not feet you idiots...some places like Bancroft, there are no stop ahead or stop signs at road crossings....no driveways, but roads....jeez......# of chevrons, corner arrows (the ones with the curve on the arrow) and my personal fav the Squiggle is amazing...I am sure I saw a "caution" sign somewhere on my travels in trailer-land this season too...some pretty bizarre practices with sharp RH or LH corners just after fence lines up by Hanover too...or just over 3-staked blind hills....what are these people thinking?

[Canuck]

...not feet you idiots..

Easy.... for you to peck away at a keyboard. Get out there next fall and teach math class. Lots of guys willing to attend your class.

[bbakernbay]

I agree that many of us, me included, do not pace off the 115 metres back from the directional arrow to install the required SLOW sign. Probably our most commom error.

[Reved]

I agree that many of us, me included, do not pace off the 115 metres back from the directional arrow to install the required SLOW sign. Probably our most commom error.

Measure it off once than mark a tree or fence with a piece of tape. Next year you do not need to count it out.

[Fred Quimby]

GPS sign locations. Simple.

[b-bry]

Are all trail signs removed in the spring? Can they not be left up permanently?

[Lep]

...not feet you idiots..

Easy.... for you to peck away at a keyboard. Get out there next fall and teach math class. Lots of guys willing to attend your class.

Canuck the OFSC/MTO want uniform signage thru out the district's,IMO ofsc audit's are not uniformed yet as per the difference from one person to the next person doing the audit,BUT have a factality on your trail you had better know what feet and meter's are in math,the lawyer's will be all over your club.Snowy was just stating what he has seen this season,his/my club has been down this road and u had better have all your signage correct.Since the MTO are on borad with US thing's have changed.

[Reved]

Are all trail signs removed in the spring? Can they not be left up permanently?

It depends where the signs are. If they are in the bush the usually stay, if the land owner does not want them removed. Signs and stakes on farmland will need to be removed.

[Wildbill]

...not feet you idiots..

Easy.... for you to peck away at a keyboard. Get out there next fall and teach math class. Lots of guys willing to attend your class.

Canuck the OFSC/MTO want uniform signage thru out the district's,IMO ofsc audit's are not uniformed yet as per the difference from one person to the next person doing the audit,BUT have a factality on your trail you had better know what feet and meter's are in math,the lawyer's will be all over your club.Snowy was just stating what he has seen this season,his/my club has been down this road and u had better have all your signage correct.Since the MTO are on borad with US thing's have changed.

Actually its the insurance companies that affected the change

[Nith Valley Sledder]

Easy.... for you to peck away at a keyboard. Get out there next fall and teach math class. Lots of guys willing to attend your class.

Every club in the OFSC already has a teacher. Their signage coordinator has been trained by the district signage coordinator in the proper installation procedures of the OFSC signage program. It is up to the club signage coord to make sure the club members installing the signage have the knowledge to sign their trails correctly. The club inspection coord (also trained by the district in the sign guidelines) then inspects the signs and signs the A01 stating everything has been installed per the guidelines. Sonewhere in this process somebody (on their own time and expense as a club volunteer) has not done their job correctly. Every club faces the same challenges on how to get their volunteers to install the signs per the OFSC guidelines.

Our club has a training day at the clubhouse to go over the sign guidelines (which really have not changed the last few years to any great extent). We install stakes and measure the 100m and 120m distances so those people not having the luxury of an ATV odometer can pace the distance or at least get a visual on what 100m acually is. After having done that it is still necessary to inspect and correct the signage that has not been installed per the guidelines. Hopefully after a few years of doing this the installation process will get better. We point out to the member responsible for that portion of trail what the errors were in a manner that will not alienate them but educate them. Things are getting better but are not perfect.

As everybody sees as they ride outside their own club's trails there are glaring discrepancies from club to club. Some clubs have very good trail signage while others have signage waiting for a lawsuit. For the clubs that put the extra effort in you constantly hear from the members "Why are you busting my nuts? Look how they are doing it!". It only takes one incident for a club to realize how important signage really is to protect not only their own butts but those of the entire OFSC membership (we will all pay for the lawsuits, win or lose they cost us money).

The trail audit program is funded from the budget every year at the whim of the OFSC membership during the AGM. It seems to be working albeit slowly as it pushes clubs who are not compliant to become compliant either with a carrot or a stick.

Our insurance is coming down but there is still lots of room for improvement. We need everybody to take the signage guidelines seriously and pick up their socks. The OFSC is a grass roots organization (opinions on this may vary) and we are all affected because the pot of permit money is limited and we can't afford to be wasting it on lawsuits that could have been avoided.

[Nutter]

Every club in the OFSC already has a teacher. Their signage coordinator has been trained by the district signage coordinator in the proper installation procedures of the OFSC signage program. It is up to the club signage coord to make sure the club members installing the signage have the knowledge to sign their trails correctly. The club inspection coord (also trained by the district in the sign guidelines) then inspects the signs and signs the A01 stating everything has been installed per the guidelines. Sonewhere in this process somebody (on their own time and expense as a club volunteer) has not done their job correctly. Every club faces the same challenges on how to get their volunteers to install the signs per the OFSC guidelines.

Our club has a training day at the clubhouse to go over the sign guidelines (which really have not changed the last few years to any great extent). We install stakes and measure the 100m and 120m distances so those people not having the luxury of an ATV odometer can pace the distance or at least get a visual on what 100m acually is. After having done that it is still necessary to inspect and correct the signage that has not been installed per the guidelines. Hopefully after a few years of doing this the installation process will get better. We point out to the member responsible for that portion of trail what the errors were in a manner that will not alienate them but educate them. Things are getting better but are not perfect.

As everybody sees as they ride outside their own club's trails there are glaring discrepancies from club to club. Some clubs have very good trail signage while others have signage waiting for a lawsuit. For the clubs that put the extra effort in you constantly hear from the members "Why are you busting my nuts? Look how they are doing it!". It only takes one incident for a club to realize how important signage really is to protect not only their own butts but those of the entire OFSC membership (we will all pay for the lawsuits, win or lose they cost us money).

The trail audit program is funded from the budget every year at the whim of the OFSC membership during the AGM. It seems to be working albeit slowly as it pushes clubs who are not compliant to become compliant either with a carrot or a stick.

Our insurance is coming down but there is still lots of room for improvement. We need everybody to take the signage guidelines seriously and pick up their socks. The OFSC is a grass roots organization (opinions on this may vary) and we are all affected because the pot of permit money is limited and we can't afford to be wasting it on lawsuits that could have been avoided.

Excelent post NVS

Tip for those new to doing signage, don't leave your signage guide sheet at home ..... if you do go back and get it, and use a measured precut rope for your distance measurments.