Muskoka1 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 13 hours ago, Ox said: So - how does this differ if it had been a skidoo trail going the other direction and that joker didn't stop? I stopped-he wasn't going to until he saw me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 We know the HWY traffic act applies to HWY's and roads and the MSVA applies to prescribed OFSC trails. We also know that if a sledder gets ticketed on a hwy or road they are charged under the HWY traffic act and on a trail under the MSVA. For what it's worth my interpretation/opinion of this is that it applies both ways, any unpermitted vehicle on an OFSC trail on private, public or Crown Land outside of the defined legal exemptions shown in the link would be fined for fail to display permit and/or possibly trespassing. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/010185 O. Reg. 185/01: TRAIL PERMITS under Motorized Snow Vehicles Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44 Versions current September 29, 2017 – (e-Laws currency date) June 13, 2005 – September 28, 2017 December 14, 2001 – June 12, 2005 Definitions 1. (1) For the purpose of section 2.1 of the Act and this Regulation, “prescribed trail” means a trail or part of a trail on which a trail permit is required by section 2.1 of the Act and that is operated or maintained by or on behalf of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, and includes such a trail or part of a trail that is on Crown land or other public land, but excludes any Crown land or other public land where the operation of motorized snow vehicles is prohibited by law. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 1 (1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 ^^^^ IF THE OFSC HAS A LAND USE AGREEMENT IN PLACE ON SAID CROWN LAND. no agreement, no permit needed, atv's trucks, ect… are able to access general crown lands roads. the ofsc cannot just commandeer a known road for their own use, by signing it, and claiming it. I know, we don't want this common knowledge but, again... it is the truth. we don't have to like it, but, it is the truth. if you don't like it, get involved and make changes to the system, but, don't criticize people for pointing out the truth, when others are spreading false information. at some point we (snowmobiliers, will have to work together, and hand in hand with the atv'ers and clubs to keep any trails. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Nutter said: We know the HWY traffic act applies to HWY's and roads and the MSVA applies to prescribed OFSC trails. We also know that if a sledder gets ticketed on a hwy or road they are charged under the HWY traffic act and on a trail under the MSVA. For what it's worth my interpretation/opinion of this is that it applies both ways, any unpermitted vehicle on an OFSC trail on private, public or Crown Land outside of the defined legal exemptions shown in the link would be fined for fail to display permit and/or possibly trespassing. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/010185 O. Reg. 185/01: TRAIL PERMITS under Motorized Snow Vehicles Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44 Versions current September 29, 2017 – (e-Laws currency date) June 13, 2005 – September 28, 2017 December 14, 2001 – June 12, 2005 Definitions 1. (1) For the purpose of section 2.1 of the Act and this Regulation, “prescribed trail” means a trail or part of a trail on which a trail permit is required by section 2.1 of the Act and that is operated or maintained by or on behalf of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, and includes such a trail or part of a trail that is on Crown land or other public land, but excludes any Crown land or other public land where the operation of motorized snow vehicles is prohibited by law. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 1 (1). The ofsc cannot place a prescribed trail on general use crown land UNLESS they have an signed exclusive rights agreement with the crown, and currently that is no longer the case. The OFSC also cannot have a prescribed trail on seasonal road yet sign many as such in error. Therefor your assertion of how general use crown land can have the permit enforced is flawed and hence the reason the OPP is not enforcing the permit at this time on these lands. In order to have a "prescribed trail" an exclusive land use permission must be granted. Much like we cannot have a prescribed trail on a frozen body of water. Just because clubs are signing trails as prescribed in error does not mean that they are in fact such trails. Here is an example of such a case. Much of the Chiniguchi loop is on a seasonal road, it is ALL signed,much of it in error, as a prescribed trail. Reality hit home when during a busy weekend four whell drive vehicles were found to be running on the groomed trai. NOTHING could be done, and nothing was done. Our hands were tied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, zoso said: The ofsc cannot place a prescribed trail on general use crown land UNLESS they have an signed exclusive rights agreement with the crown, and currently that is no longer the case. The OFSC also cannot have a prescribed trail on seasonal road yet sign many as such in error. Therefor your assertion of how general use crown land can have the permit enforced is flawed and hence the reason the OPP is not enforcing the permit at this time on these lands. In order to have a "prescribed trail" an exclusive land use permission must be granted. Much like we cannot have a prescribed trail on a frozen body of water. Just because clubs are signing trails as prescribed in error does not mean that they are in fact such trails. Here is an example of such a case. Much of the Chiniguchi loop is on a seasonal road, it is ALL signed,much of it in error, as a prescribed trail. Reality hit home when during a busy weekend four whell drive vehicles were found to be running on the groomed trai. so NOTHING could be done, and nothing was done. Our hands were tied. So are you saying that where the A trail crosses the ice on at least 3 rivers between Cochrane and Hearst, those ice sections are not prescribed trails? If that were the case, shouldn't there be "TRAIL ENDS" signs posted before each river crossing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 this is where things are going to continue to fall apart. The federation, being 98% volunteer managed and operated is going to see even tougher times ahead. Who has time or wants to take the time to spearhead these issues, lobby to have exclusive winter rights to these portions of crown land, its not a couple hr ordeal. Many people won't do anything outside their job description at work because they are not getting paid to do that, yet we as a snowmobile society assume someone will just volunteer their time to fix a mess like this. Good luck. The best of free organized snowmobiling is behind us, the economic impact study that was done in I believe 2016 was an eye opener, there is a ton of money being spent in this province on this specific sport, its high time the users buck up....JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: So are you saying that where the A trail crosses the ice on at least 3 rivers between Cochrane and Hearst, those ice sections are not prescribed trails? If that were the case, shouldn't there be "TRAIL ENDS" signs posted before each river crossing?? That is correct, there are no prescribed trails on bodies of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 56 minutes ago, Wildman said: this is where things are going to continue to fall apart. The federation, being 98% volunteer managed and operated is going to see even tougher times ahead. Who has time or wants to take the time to spearhead these issues, lobby to have exclusive winter rights to these portions of crown land, its not a couple hr ordeal. Many people won't do anything outside their job description at work because they are not getting paid to do that, yet we as a snowmobile society assume someone will just volunteer their time to fix a mess like this. Good luck. The best of free organized snowmobiling is behind us, the economic impact study that was done in I believe 2016 was an eye opener, there is a ton of money being spent in this province on this specific sport, its high time the users buck up....JMHO Actually, there is paid staff that is in the Barrie office whom has the job description to deal with this issue, the question is, why are they sitting on it until it becomes a huge issue, which it will. When I read posts like Nutters, I see the angle, he wants to try to twist the law to suit our needs, the problem is, that is a failed approach that will not hold water in the end. So adopting that position puts us at a grave risk of a court case setting president when in fact we need the crown to once again grant us LUPs for trails across general use, as this is the only teal and lasting solution if we do not want to share the trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 5 hours ago, zoso said: Actually, there is paid staff that is in the Barrie office whom has the job description to deal with this issue, the question is, why are they sitting on it until it becomes a huge issue, which it will. When I read posts like Nutters, I see the angle, he wants to try to twist the law to suit our needs, the problem is, that is a failed approach that will not hold water in the end. So adopting that position puts us at a grave risk of a court case setting president when in fact we need the crown to once again grant us LUPs for trails across general use, as this is the only teal and lasting solution if we do not want to share the trails. Who holds that position in Barrie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 17 hours ago, Wildman said: Who holds that position in Barrie? On 1/4/2019 at 12:15 PM, zoso said: The ofsc cannot place a prescribed trail on general use crown land UNLESS they have an signed exclusive rights agreement with the crown, and currently that is no longer the case. The OFSC also cannot have a prescribed trail on seasonal road yet sign many as such in error. Therefor your assertion of how general use crown land can have the permit enforced is flawed and hence the reason the OPP is not enforcing the permit at this time on these lands. In order to have a "prescribed trail" an exclusive land use permission must be granted. Much like we cannot have a prescribed trail on a frozen body of water. Just because clubs are signing trails as prescribed in error does not mean that they are in fact such trails. Here is an example of such a case. Much of the Chiniguchi loop is on a seasonal road, it is ALL signed,much of it in error, as a prescribed trail. Reality hit home when during a busy weekend four whell drive vehicles were found to be running on the groomed trai. NOTHING could be done, and nothing was done. Our hands were tied. The OFSC has a blanket LUP with the province where approvals to allow an OFSC prescribed trail on Crown Land is granted by the local MNR branch. The days of clubs staking and signing a new trail where they wish through the bush have been long gone for well over a decade. Also aside from the odd reroute here and there, there hasn't really been any new trails added to the system. If there was a prescribed OFSC on Crown Land that shouldn't be you can bet the MNR would have been all over it by now. 17 hours ago, Wildman said: Who holds that position in Barrie? Good man for the position https://ca.linkedin.com/in/andrew-walasek-38886445 Andrew Walasek Director, Stakeholder Relations at Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs Barrie, Ontario, Canada Nonprofit Organization Management Current Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs Previous Canada Post / Postes Canada, Transport Canada, Parliament of Canada Education Queen's University Experience Director, Stakeholder Relations Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs August 2018 – Present 6 months Barrie, ON Various Roles, Government Affairs Canada Post / Postes Canada October 2008 – August 2018 9 years 11 months Ottawa Held a number of progressive positions within the Government Affairs team at Canada Post at both the federal and municipal liaison levels. Senior Special Assistant Transport Canada April 2006 – October 2008 2 years 7 months Ottawa Employed in the Office of the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Legislative Assistant Parliament of Canada July 2004 – April 2006 1 year 10 months Ottawa Employed in the Office of Member of Parliament for Prince Edward--Hastings. Special Assistant Government of Ontario September 2000 – October 2003 3 years 2 months Toronto Employed in the Office of the Chief Government Whip, Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation, and Member of Provincial Parliament for Northumberland--Quinte West. Education Queen's University Bachelor of Arts, Political Science 1996 – 2000 South Grenville 1991 – 1996 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Per ATV's on the trail: Winter 1998/'99 sucked. Snow was gone or very limited even up north by mid Feb, and then it froze hard the rest of the season. Had I had an ATV at the time I would have LOVED to have rode from White River to Marathon! That trail crossed oodles of small lakes and swamps at that time. I have no clue what it's like now, even if it's cleared. The hills were to die for - as much as east of the Mississippi is concerned! With all the water, you would never be able to ride it with wheeled vehicle in the summer, but with it froze hard and no snow - YOU BET! I'd'a been out there with my 4wheeler - had I had one at the time. I'd still like to doo that someday if that trail exists anymore. Maybe some spring that melts down and then re-freezes good again? ... someday ..... in all my spare time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Nutter said: The OFSC has a blanket LUP with the province where approvals to allow an OFSC prescribed trail on Crown Land is granted by the local MNR branch. The days of clubs staking and signing a new trail where they wish through the bush have been long gone for well over a decade. Also aside from the odd reroute here and there, there hasn't really been any new trails added to the system. If there was a prescribed OFSC on Crown Land that shouldn't be you can bet the MNR would have been all over it Well then, I suppose we should not be concerned as to why these local mnr offices are not granting these permits and as to why the OPP are not enforcing the permit on these trails. Head in sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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