bbakernbay Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I’m sure there are lots of Clubs in the North feeling the same as we do here at the North Bay Snowmobilers Club about lower than normal OFSC Trail Permit sales this season. We were advised at our last District meeting that OFSC Trail Permit sales are only down about 3% for the year which is great news considering the absolutely terrible weather. Our Club is down almost 100 Permits – in the order of 25% which probably means that lots of the southern riders bought their Trail Permits in their own area seeing the early snow and thinking “We are Good to Go” - NOT. Now that the south has no snow the north is getting invaded by sledders wanting to ride our Club trails and we get almost no revenue as a result. I know how the system of revenue sharing works and the OFSC and District have treated us well but when you lose 25% of your revenues in a small Club it really hurts. Our Club has no rights to sell Trail Permits anywhere on the Lakeshore Drive motel & restaurant strip. Travelodge Airport and Holiday Inn Express don’t sell our Permits. The two dealers in the City are required to sell all 3 area Club’s permits. There is no Ski-Doo dealer in North Bay so almost nil income from BRP Club Funds. We only have one business (The Portage – formerly The McCoys) on our 300+ kms of trails so we are not able to sell many as a result. Even sledders take advantage of the owner by parking there for a week or two without asking permission and not even bothering to buy gas or meals there. Not one motel gave us a nickel for our Fundraising Auction despite getting a Letter of Request from our Club. Apparently you need to contact “Corporate Head Office” for a bloody Gift Certificate. And you wonder why I don’t recommend any North Bay motels? Our Club was the 2010 OFSC Communications Club of the Year due to our excellent Trail Sign boards, Trail Numbering, OFSC signing, www.nbsc.ca website, SPOT GPS live tracking of our groomers, Facebook & Twitter as well as daily updates on our website, e-mail address and the 3 popular forums: www.freedomsledder.com www.hardcoresledder.com and www.ontarioconditions.com We answer daily questions from everywhere and about everything even outside our Club trails. People bitch to NBSC about the rough trail getting from Callander Bay and Lakeshore Drive to Trout Lake and points north and east. Well those aren’t NBSC trails – they are South Shore – Restoule Club trails who get the revenue from all permits sold along Lakeshore Drive and Pinewood Park Drive. Well that’s enough ranting for today, it’s time to go out and do some signing. If you don’t have your Trail Permit yet, please think of us. Canadian Tire on McKeown Avenue, Idylltyme Sports on Trout Lake Road, The Portage on TOP AD – TOP A1 - TOP A2 & TOP D sell our Permits as well as Carlsons Sports (Yamaha & Arctic Cat) and Power Sports on Main West (Polaris). Classic Permits are available at Account on Fullerton Mon – Fri at 810 Cassells Street. As always your comments are welcome. Brian Baker - NBSC President Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bark Biter Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Brian, sorry to hear of your troubles, ranting is a good thing, and we are all here for the same reason, to help each other in the best way we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Kelly from three bears had permit revenue stripped from their club, because of a compliant from another district stealing their sales. They sold them to people from outside the area and the ofsc intervened and gave the district where the people live credit for the permit sale. They do around 200km and now only have 21 permits sold from their club. How are you suppose to buy where you ride when the ofsc does this??? You should be able to sell in your whole area as well. Huge problem. I wish there was a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thanks for your observation. There is no perfect solution but the reality is some Clubs are cash & groomer rich and others are fighting to stay alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Great rant Brian!!!! I hope some help is available for your club and thanks for all of your hard work!!!! What does your club need the most; money, volunteers, support from local businesses, other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy2litre Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 we have come up to your area and ridden your trails many times and your trails are usually fantastic... I can confirm and agree that the support and information that you have provided to us tourists through these forums, your web-site, and even by phone - has been fantatsic... it's too bad you did not have a better relationship with south shore, as they are traditionally slow out of the gate in both preparing/clearing trail and grooming trail... and their communication between their members as well as to the snowmobilers is frustrating to all - including their own members and moderators of their club... it's too bad that something couldn't be worked out where a small percentage of trail permits is put into a slush fund to help out clubs who obviously have a high # of riders based on snow - for that particular year... you have to understand though that we must buy from our local club down here, as even in an 'off' year, they need our revenue to improve trails and this still is the area that we ride the majority of the time (year after year).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This thread is posted in two different sections of the forum. I usually select 'view new content' and responded to the other thread. Not sure what the majorty of people are doing, but it is confusing when two identical threads are posted.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Either our District Governor mis-spoke or I mustn't have heard him correctly when I thought he said Trail Permits across ON were only down 3%. Based upon what I read here, that can't be accurate. Does anybody know the accurate % & number of regular T/P. sold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 This thread is posted in two different sections of the forum. I usually select 'view new content' and responded to the other thread. Not sure what the majorty of people are doing, but it is confusing when two identical threads are posted.?? I agree, I'll cease & desist. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Kelly from three bears had permit revenue stripped from their club, because of a compliant from another district stealing their sales. They sold them to people from outside the area and the ofsc intervened and gave the district where the people live credit for the permit sale. They do around 200km and now only have 21 permits sold from their club. How are you suppose to buy where you ride when the ofsc does this??? You should be able to sell in your whole area as well. Huge problem. I wish there was a solution. I have a very hard time believing that sytory about the OFSC giving to another club. There's more to this story. It wouldn't happen that way unless it went on for several years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 From the OFSC Board of Governor's of May 28th Final seasonal Trail Permits74,423 + 10,675 Classics = 85,098 (82,068 Previous Year) Anyone know about this season to date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Classics will be way down for sure, since slot of guys haven't purchased yet. Doh. Next year is going to be real bad. Sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 We had a rash of Classic Permit sales this week. They can afford to wait in the weeds since their permit doesn't increase by $50 after December 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 We had a rash of Classic Permit sales this week. They can afford to wait in the weeds since their permit doesn't increase by $50 after December 1st. I've always noticed that on season w/ good snow, we see all sorts of "classic" sleds come out of the woodwork that I wouldn't want to ride more than 20 miles on a Sun' afternoon. PRS chassis 'doos are 1 example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 We all here have access to the internet and e-mail. send all these comments and suggestions to the OFSC. They can't sit back and pretend everything is alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Fred - I really don't know what to suggest to OFSC - I think the Matrix system is probably the best method and they continue to tweak it to make it better every year. There is no perfect solution as there are so many variables involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Fred - I really don't know what to suggest to OFSC - I think the Matrix system is probably the best method and they continue to tweak it to make it better every year. There is no perfect solution as there are so many variables involved. I get that. And, you are right. BUT...there has to be a way to help a club like Luc's up in Dub, while down here a club like Haliburton sells almost 2000 permits. There are so many variables. There are just so many extremes. Sledding in many areas could die a long slow death before there is a fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I get that. And, you are right. BUT...there has to be a way to help a club like Luc's up in Dub, while down here a club like Haliburton sells almost 2000 permits. There are so many variables. There are just so many extremes. Sledding in many areas could die a long slow death before there is a fix. Haliburton (and many other clubs selling large number of permits) are already helping the weak clubs. The matrix moves the money from the strong clubs to the weak clubs so everybody can make a go of it. The strong clubs still have their expenses (groomer mortgage, fuel etc) to cover. The only way to help make things better is to either get more money coming in (gov't funding, local businesses that benefit from our sport) or start rationalizing the number of trails a club has. If they can't support their trails then they need to look at cutting back. This is not a popular subject as a lot of the smaller trails are generally there to get the club members out to the main trails. If you take away their access then you lose the member and all of the trails suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeddy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Instead of clubs selling their own permits, why doesn't the ofsc sell the permits and delegate the money to the clubs based on a formula of kms of trails and average number of days open a season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Fred - I really don't know what to suggest to OFSC - I think the Matrix system is probably the best method and they continue to tweak it to make it better every year. There is no perfect solution as there are so many variables involved. Haliburton (and many other clubs selling large number of permits) are already helping the weak clubs. The matrix moves the money from the strong clubs to the weak clubs so everybody can make a go of it. The strong clubs still have their expenses (groomer mortgage, fuel etc) to cover. The only way to help make things better is to either get more money coming in (gov't funding, local businesses that benefit from our sport) or start rationalizing the number of trails a club has. If they can't support their trails then they need to look at cutting back. This is not a popular subject as a lot of the smaller trails are generally there to get the club members out to the main trails. If you take away their access then you lose the member and all of the trails suffer. Excellent posts guys :right_on: Instead of clubs selling their own permits, why doesn't the ofsc sell the permits and delegate the money to the clubs based on a formula of kms of trails and average number of days open a season? If only it was that easy ..... just think as a quick example ...... You have some clubs that have trails open for 12 to 16 weeks and they only see 300 to 500 riders the whole season, then you have trails that are only open for 6 to 10 weeks but see well over 200 to 300+ riders a day for those 6 to 10 weeks. What ever we decide to do, we can't lose sight that southern clubs are the back bone meat and potatoes of Ontario's trail system, take away from those trails close to the majority of permit buyers we will lose a huge portion of those permit buyers, and if we lose them there will less money to fund the north since the southern clubs/districts already put a substantial amount back into the provincial matrix to subsidize the north, many many times over what the north raises on it's own. There is no easy way, other then raising the permit price or gaining outside funding and support, be it local or through the province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Just think how much snowmobilers spend collectively on Ontario Fuel Tax + 13% HST for fuel. We're lucky if we get 5% of that returned in grants, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Excellent posts guys :right_on: If only it was that easy ..... just think as a quick example ...... You have some clubs that have trails open for 12 to 16 weeks and they only see 300 to 500 riders the whole season, then you have trails that are only open for 6 to 10 weeks but see well over 200 to 300+ riders a day for those 6 to 10 weeks. What ever we decide to do, we can't lose sight that southern clubs are the back bone meat and potatoes of Ontario's trail system, take away from those trails close to the majority of permit buyers we will lose a huge portion of those permit buyers, and if we lose them there will less money to fund the north since the southern clubs/districts already put a substantial amount back into the provincial matrix to subsidize the north, many many times over what the north raises on it's own. There is no easy way, other then raising the permit price or gaining outside funding and support, be it local or through the province. No easy solution, by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 We all here have access to the internet and e-mail. send all these comments and suggestions to the OFSC. They can't sit back and pretend everything is alright. I'm sure they have the Internet too and are well aware of what is being posted on some of the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Not a rant, BBNB - just a lot of good information. One of the major constraints you face is communicating with prior purchasers. Your club is at the leading edge of communication, but I don't think email addresses (or mailing addresses) are provided to you under the new system. If they are, I stand corrected. I purchased one trail pass from your club years ago, and received mailings for years. 'You were always on my mind' when it came time to purchase trail passes. Unfortunately, I chose to buy in the south for years after that since we stopped launching from North Bay and snowmobiled in the south or way up north. I can't comment on the matrix, groomer allocation, etc. since I'm not privy to that information. My gut feeling is that the OFSC is aware of the inequity outlined here; that a warmer Ontario will lead to changing snowmobile patterns and that your concerns will be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes we are trying to build on the e-mail addresses of Trail Permit buyers but a large percentage don't enter that field on their Application just like they don't check off that they want the OFSC Go Snowmobiling magazine then bitch when they don't get it. Thanks for your comments. Online purchasing may help us rather than hurt us as we first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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