Greggie Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Sounds like we are all in the same situation, still alot of unknowns. I guess we all are grooming alot more then our 4 year averages that the FFC bugeted for us. If this is a bad thing God help us all. This year will bring a lot of clubs in the red. The problem of this winter with lots of snow and a long season, 20% more permit sales will not pay for all the more then average grooming hours. Not sure if FFC in this kind of winters makes it average better or worse. For sure next year FFC will change. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 True statement Greg. 20% more permits doesn't equal 200 % grooming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 This year will bring a lot of clubs in the red. The problem of this winter with lots of snow and a long season, 20% more permit sales will not pay for all the more then average grooming hours. Not sure if FFC in this kind of winters makes it average better or worse. For sure next year FFC will change. Thanks, Greg If we only had a crystal ball (that works) Permit sales are up yes. Were they up as of Dec 2 ? Not sure but most of those permits were at a $30 discount so was the $ down? Is it the $260 permits now that are selling due to the snow that are getting $ up. We can't second guess too much, had to do what we did, did the $180 permit help? If they were the $210 buyers ( me included) should we now at AGM consider raising the $180 permit to ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 True statement Greg. 20% more permits doesn't equal 200 % grooming. This year permits would have been up with or without ffc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Sounds like we are all in the same situation, still alot of unknowns. I guess we all are grooming alot more then our 4 year averages that the FFC bugeted for us. If this is a bad thing God help us all. If we only had a crystal ball (that works) Permit sales are up yes. Were they up as of Dec 2 ? Not sure but most of those permits were at a $30 discount so was the $ down? Is it the $260 permits now that are selling due to the snow that are getting $ up. We can't second guess too much, had to do what we did, did the $180 permit help? If they were the $210 buyers ( me included) should we now at AGM consider raising the $180 permit to ??If I am right, we have this year so far about the same or a little more permit money then last year. Part comes from the classic permit $140 to $170 after December 1 and part of more permit sales. For sure we sold more permits. To say, the success was FFC, not sure, I think t was the great winter we have so far.Increasing the price of the permits for next year? I guess: pre Nov 1 will be $199, until dec 1 will be $225 and after dec 1 will be $280. Classic will be $150 and after dec 1 $189. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If I am right, we have this year so far about the same or a little more permit money then last year. Part comes from the classic permit $140 to $170 after December 1 and part of more permit sales. For sure we sold more permits. To say, the success was FFC, not sure, I think t was the great winter we have so far. Increasing the price of the permits for next year? I guess: pre Nov 1 will be $199, until dec 1 will be $225 and after dec 1 will be $280. Classic will be $150 and after dec 1 $189. Thanks, Greg I don't think their will be any increase in permit structure.... I believe they are trying to weigh in on the val tag reg fees as the second tier of FFC...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I don't think their will be any increase in permit structure.... I believe they are trying to weigh in on the val tag reg fees as the second tier of FFC...... Don't think that it will happen for 2014-2015. There is too much involved to do this at the MTO side. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Don't think that it will happen for 2014-2015. There is too much involved to do this at the MTO side. Thanks, Greg I todays political climate I tend to agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Even more so with Val Tag because that is political dynamite compared to Snowmobilers increasing their own Trail Permit prices by $20 or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Even more so with Val Tag because that is political dynamite compared to Snowmobilers increasing their own Trail Permit prices by $20 or whatever. I have always thought and said the val tag increase will be a hard sell to the government since THEY will be taking the backlash from the voting public riders (eventhough the OFSC will be getting the increase for the betterment of the sport) and with a minority government going to the polls sooner than later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bark Biter Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 We were told that the Val Tag has been scrapped. As a district right now we are over budget due to groomer repairs this year. One repair alone is over 18000.00. Sad but true. Plus other clubs have had so many repairs this year it is sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 We have had many repairs as well I hope that the valtag is not dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 We have had many repairs as well I hope that the valtag is not dead The approx. 50% reduction allowed for grooming hrs through FFC just doesn't cut it. It leaves no room for groomer repairs. FFC seems to be set up for the idea situation where you add fuel and keep going. No breakdowns allowed. I have heard of so many clubs / Districts with breakdowns this year, I can only imagine how many will be scraping the bottom of the barrel or not have enough money to send to the OFSC for the after Dec 1st permit sales. (70% of each permit sold). Don't pay the OFSC the 70%, and clubs will not be in good standing with the OFSC. I really hope everyone makes it through this. I would like to know who came up with the $$ amount reduction for grooming hrs, and what they based the reduction on. It is NOT realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 The approx. 50% reduction allowed for grooming hrs through FFC just doesn't cut it. It leaves no room for groomer repairs. FFC seems to be set up for the idea situation where you add fuel and keep going. No breakdowns allowed. I have heard of so many clubs / Districts with breakdowns this year, I can only imagine how many will be scraping the bottom of the barrel or not have enough money to send to the OFSC for the after Dec 1st permit sales. (70% of each permit sold). Don't pay the OFSC the 70%, and clubs will not be in good standing with the OFSC. I really hope everyone makes it through this. I would like to know who came up with the $$ amount reduction for grooming hrs, and what they based the reduction on. It is NOT realistic. This is absolutely correct. The formula is terribly flawed and only works if you have a new groomer and no issues. Most dont have new groomers. At our FFC trail meeting we were told that our maintenance costs would have to be reduced. How do you do that as a fleet ages. Our response of the fact that the rocks are hard on tracks was met with well then move the trails off of the rocks. Sounds simple but not so much on the Canadian shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 This is absolutely correct. The formula is terribly flawed and only works if you have a new groomer and no issues. Most dont have new groomers. At our FFC trail meeting we were told that our maintenance costs would have to be reduced. How do you do that as a fleet ages. Our response of the fact that the rocks are hard on tracks was met with well then move the trails off of the rocks. Sounds simple but not so much on the Canadian shield. The other things clubs & districts need to be concerned about is in December the OFSC using a formula decided on "Allotted" grooming hrs for the season for each club. Due to the great winter for sledding that we have had, what if a club has already gone over the allotted hrs? Are we going to get more $ from the OFSC, or do these clubs shut down now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 The other things clubs & districts need to be concerned about is in December the OFSC using a formula decided on "Allotted" grooming hrs for the season for each club. Due to the great winter for sledding that we have had, what if a club has already gone over the allotted hrs? Are we going to get more $ from the OFSC, or do these clubs shut down now? Good question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 The other things clubs & districts need to be concerned about is in December the OFSC using a formula decided on "Allotted" grooming hrs for the season for each club. Due to the great winter for sledding that we have had, what if a club has already gone over the allotted hrs? Are we going to get more $ from the OFSC, or do these clubs shut down now? There is most likely not more money available. So that means that there isn't more grooming funding available. That means that the club is saying for the extra grooming for 100%, Tanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 There is most likely not more money available. So that means that there isn't more grooming funding available. That means that the club is saying for the extra grooming for 100%, Tanks, Greg where do you get this information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 There is most likely not more money available. So that means that there isn't more grooming funding available. That means that the club is saying for the extra grooming for 100%, Tanks, Greg If you are right, and clubs keep grooming beyond their means there will likely be a lot fewer clubs next season. 70% of permit dollars most clubs have in their accounts right now, are designated to be sent to the OFSC. Only 30% stays with the Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If you are right, and clubs keep grooming beyond their means there will likely be a lot fewer clubs next season. 70% of permit dollars most clubs have in their accounts right now, are designated to be sent to the OFSC. Only 30% stays with the Club. Some clubs with the big bank accounts may just have to dip into the old sock to keep going. The worst thing that could happen to permit sales next year is for clubs to stop grooming now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Some clubs with the big bank accounts may just have to dip into the old sock to keep going. The worst thing that could happen to permit sales next year is for clubs to stop grooming now. I agree with the best winter in years, we should keep grooming. But, what about the clubs / districts without big bank accounts? I would guess there are many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Clubs get more than 30% of the Trail Permit. The first 30% is guaranteed $$ to the Club. Subsequent revenue after the OFSC's take (for admin, insurance & Groomer Replacement Fund) is based upon grooming hours subject to how the District and Member Clubs agree to disburse those remaining funds. Most clubs will not likely know how much they are going to receive until the season is almost over. It will be interesting for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Clubs get more than 30% of the Trail Permit. The first 30% is guaranteed $$ to the Club. Subsequent revenue after the OFSC's take (for admin, insurance & Groomer Replacement Fund) is based upon grooming hours subject to how the District and Member Clubs agree to disburse those remaining funds. Most clubs will not likely know how much they are going to receive until the season is almost over. It will be interesting for sure. In ffc, all districts know how much money they will get for admin, trails and grooming hours. Now every where is snow and the permit sales are ok, most districts will get 100% of the equalization money as forecasted. Also every district has another way of distributing the money to the clubs. Yes, a good snow year is financial bad for the clubs. Beside that, there are lots of clubs who get less money this year under ffc. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Clubs get more than 30% of the Trail Permit. The first 30% is guaranteed $$ to the Club. Subsequent revenue after the OFSC's take (for admin, insurance & Groomer Replacement Fund) is based upon grooming hours subject to how the District and Member Clubs agree to disburse those remaining funds. Most clubs will not likely know how much they are going to receive until the season is almost over. It will be interesting for sure. As I mentioned earlier " in December the OFSC using a formula, decided on "Allotted" grooming hrs for the season for each club. Due to the great winter for sledding that we have had, what if a club has already gone over the allotted hrs? Are we going to get more $ from the OFSC, or do these clubs shut down now?" The equalization payments were set for each club based on meeting the criteria. My question is, what happens if clubs continue to groom beyond the allotment or set amounts? Will this cause clubs to run in to the red if they keep going due to no further financial compensation over and above the $$ numbers shown by the OFSC? IS there even enough money within the OFSC to compensate? Some questions that we don't seem to have answers to. If clubs run in to the red, how can they make the 70% payment they still have to make to the OFSC for "before AND after Dec 1st sales? Is the "subsequent revenue after the OFSC's take" that you are referring to the equalization payment? If so, these amounts were set based on a club's 4 yr average of grooming hrs and average permit sales in the information we received from the OFSC in December. Will the equalization amounts increase if clubs groom beyond the alotted (4yr average) amount, and no substantial increase in permit sales? Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 As I mentioned earlier " in December the OFSC using a formula, decided on "Allotted" grooming hrs for the season for each club. Due to the great winter for sledding that we have had, what if a club has already gone over the allotted hrs? Are we going to get more $ from the OFSC, or do these clubs shut down now?" The equalization payments were set for each club based on meeting the criteria. My question is, what happens if clubs continue to groom beyond the allotment or set amounts? Will this cause clubs to run in to the red if they keep going due to no further financial compensation over and above the $$ numbers shown by the OFSC? IS there even enough money within the OFSC to compensate? Some questions that we don't seem to have answers to. If clubs run in to the red, how can they make the 70% payment they still have to make to the OFSC for "before AND after Dec 1st sales? Is the "subsequent revenue after the OFSC's take" that you are referring to the equalization payment? If so, these amounts were set based on a club's 4 yr average of grooming hrs and average permit sales in the information we received from the OFSC in December. Will the equalization amounts increase if clubs groom beyond the alotted (4yr average) amount, and no substantial increase in permit sales? Just asking. I don't want to bring you the bad news but to be honest, as I said earlier, don't expect more money or the ffc must change the payments. If I am right, sometimes I am lol, we sold this year more permits then forecasted. The original plan was to keep test money for next year. If the OFSC decide to see that money this season, there will be some more money available. This will be not double the money. Yes lots of clubs will run in the red this season, we get only 500 grooming hours paid but we will groom most likely double. What happens if the club don't has the money to psy the 70%? Don't know. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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